Dust, hairs and lint on negatives.

[Shootar401]

My first try at 4x5 developing was great except for some hairs that look like they were picked while I loaded the film holders. On my second time around loading I made sure I blew out the holders with canned air and everything was much, much better. But I'm still getting little annoying pieces of lint on the negatives. I know its not possible to get everything spotless, but aside from wearing clothes that do not "shed", which I did last time. What else can I do to help prevent this from happening. I load the film in my basement, its cool and dry with very little dust.

Also what is a good way to dry the negatives after developing to minimize the pickup of lint and such while they are drying? I don't have a film dryer so I hang them in my office to dry.

Thanks

[D. Bryant]

Clean your bellows thoroughly and keep it clean.

Try to dry your film in a cabinet. A home made one will do. Make sure your photo-flo is clean as well.

[Doremus Scudder]

First, do a search here. There are tons of information about this very topic, lots of it from me. I don't have time to write it all down again today:)

Dust is your enemy. Keep everything clean. Keep your holders in ziploc-type bags after loading. Keep the camera bellows clean, etc., etc. I'm down to almost no dust.

Happy searching,

Doremus

[Mark Woods]

I keep a tank of nitrogen in the darkroom for negatives and film that is loaded. $18 for the small tank and run it at 90 psi. Hang the negs in a cabinet as suggested, or in a room with zero air flow. I usually hang them in my darkroom and leave. I have to schedule my work to allow this to happen. Good luck!

[Mark MacKenzie]

Dust and debris in the bellows of your camera is bad because it will block light and cause spots. Emulsion is not sticky til it gets wet so I think you're right in that the dust and debris is from post processing. When you wash your film and then photoflo, do you squeegee the film between your fingers? I always feel a bit of debris that I gently wipe off. I dunno maybe my water is not filtered enough. Then I hang the film on clothes hangers with clothes pins in my bathroom with the door shut and the heat and air vent covered. I could never figure out why I had dust stick to my negs before I started wiping them with my fingers. Be careful of scratching but it is not too fragile to squeegee with wet fingers.

[Brian Ellis]

Welcome to the world of large format photography.

I don't know anything unique or special about keeping dust, etc. off the film in the first place. There's a ton of information here and elsewhere about how to do that. IMHO the single best thing you can do is to keep the holders in a zip-lock bag at all times except when actually loading and unloading the film and when a holder is in the camera. I also quickly brushed the inside of a holder with an anti-static brush before loading each sheet.

To minimize dust when drying film I turned on the shower in a bathroom as hot as it could get with all towels removed and the door closed to build up some steam, then hung the film on coat hangers to dry. That seemed to help, doing it that way I never had a major post-processing dust problem.

[Shootar401]

Would it be ok to give the film a quick blast of canned air before I close the dark slide after loading?

[photobymike]

I use a cheap air compressor with a dust and dehydrator attachment to keep the dust moving off my negs..I have run air hoses thru the house into rooms that i use(computer and finishing rooms). . i always blow out the film holders before loading them. < VERY IMPORTANT.... I use a Brookstone large static air cleaner in the computer room. Also make sure the enlarger (which i dont use any more) is grounded well. If your computer is grounded well it will be an air cleaner also. i have to clean out 2 large Macs every 6 months or so... dust build up on the electronics will make them overheat..... just ask my son about his Xbox and the towel trick...

[Michael Alpert]

Would it be ok to give the film a quick blast of canned air before I close the dark slide after loading?

I don't think this is a good idea. As you are loading film (after carefully cleaning your film-holders), you should try to have as little air movement as possible. As soon as you have the film loaded, put the individual holders in clean plastic bags right away. With time and practice, your dust problem will diminish.

[Mark Woods]

Blow the film as you close the dark slide. I rarely retouch prints with this method. The nitrogen tank works wonders. This is the same methodology used in the film industry where the cost of hairs and particles is the cost of the loader's job.

[Dan Henderson]

Ditto the ziploc bags. I bought some fancy anti static ones on the net. Not sure if they are better than grocery store baggies. I clean my holders with compressed air before loading, but I wonder if a vacuum meant for computer insides would not be better as it would not blow dust around to settle elsewhere.

I keep a small HEPA filter/ionizer running full time in my darkroom and keep the door closed whenever I am not entering or exiting. I also learned to keep a small container of distilled water in the darkroom to which I add a capful of isopropyl alcohol and one drop of photo flo as a final rinse before hanging my negs. The alcohol is supposed to make the nets dry more quickly.

Then, as someone said, quickly, quietly, and softly leave the darkroom and do not return until the negatives are dry.

I seldom have the dreaded clear spots on my negatives, nor do I often have to spot prints.

[Mark Woods]

All good suggestions. I keep my empty holders in a file cabinet. They get the blow clean in my shop with an air compressor, then off to the darkroom to be loaded with another blast of nitrogen as I close the dark slide. I don't have a problem with hairs or other debris on the negs at exposure or after they're processed.

[David Lobato]

+1 more for the ziplock bags for each film holder, and a secondary large plastic bag holding what you plan to carry in the field. During reloading pull the dark slides all the way out and aim compressed air down into the channel. It's surprising what gets trapped in there. After much frustration I finally figured the air conditioning/heating duct in the room where I hang negatives to dry is a source of dust and worse, it gets stirred up. You may need to temporarily block A/C ducts until your negatives dry. A batch of 4x5 negatives is washing this very moment. In a few minutes I'll hang them to dry. And absolutely, I need to lock the cats out.

[Greg Blank]

I vacuum my holders before loading film. At one point I was at a LF workshop and the teacher a well known ULF photographer stated ziploc bags are a very bad idea. I can sort understand the idea of charging the holders by plastic rubbing plastic. Produces static and potentially turns the holders into dust magnets. & yet I have used ziplocs a lot over the years and they seem to protect the holders quite well here on the East Coast.

[Kodachrome25]

If I can not get this nipped, I might be done with large format...

After shooting 4x5 almost exclusively for about 2 months ( for my film work ), I am finding dust on the film during exposure to be by far the biggest deterrent to continuing in using the format. I just can not print these negs, not with what will be black hairs on the print. I live in a high elevation, super dry climate and this year being a severe drought year makes it especially bad. So I already take a lot of common sense precautions in using other formats and digital and do well at keeping my sanity in terms of dust.

I am used to a very profitable hit rate in using both 35mm and 120, but 4x5 has been so horribe in terms of dust, I have yet to print a single negative after 2 months, terrible ROI...

So I do a lot of what has been said here, clean the holders in between uses, store them full time in their own anti-static ziplock bags and even load them in my bathroom after adding some humidity via turning on the shower. All my holders are near new if not brand new in the case of my 3 Chamonix holders. The camera is always cleaned too, it is also brand new. At the moment, I am using canned air which is darn expensive to use near daily like this, so I am interested in this nitrogen tank being used, what do I need, where does one find it?

Sometimes I get really clean negs, it surprises me. Other times I shoot a holder of 100 speed using a 10 stop ND filter making it to where the dark slide is out for up to 3 minutes...and get totally effed negs, beautifully shot, composed and souped...hairy negs...

So before I punt this format as totally unusable, what other solutions are other people who LIVE in very arid climates like the West and South West employing to control dust to the point that they can make quality prints from their negs without hairs botching it all up?

And just what kind of vacuum are people using for the bellows and the holders? And worst of all, how are multi-day Trekkers dealing with re-loading in the field if a changing bag is a dust trap? The Harrison Pup tent looks like one option but at 2 pounds, is a lot of weight for truly remote work.

I hate to give up the format, but thus far, I am able to get printable / saleable photographs far, far more consistently with medium format and with films like Acros 100 and Pan-F, I can easily go as big as 30" x 30" so 4x5 better start pulling it's own weight and fast....

[Jim Andrada]

I know a gentleman who shoots 4 x 5 regularly - to the tune of over 10,000 chromes and counting. Never heard about hairy film, and if you're going to have dust and static electricity turning things into hairball magnets Arizona will get you in spades.

Something has to be wrong.

[chopsteeks]

I feel your frustration.

Cleaned the bellows ?

As for me, I developed 12 negatives last night.....9 were spotless...1 had a scratch (me) that I had to toss away....the other 2....had a spot or 2.

I followed what was posted on this board...but the dust must have been introduced when I was changing lenses on the field. I will bring a plastic garbage bag to cover the camera and lens when I change lenses.

Hope you will find patience as it will get better as time goes by..


If I can not get this nipped, I might be done with large format...

After shooting 4x5 almost exclusively for about 2 months ( for my film work ), I am finding dust on the film during exposure to be by far the biggest deterrent to continuing in using the format. I just can not print these negs, not with what will be black hairs on the print. I live in a high elevation, super dry climate and this year being a severe drought year makes it especially bad. So I already take a lot of common sense precautions in using other formats and digital and do well at keeping my sanity in terms of dust.

I am used to a very profitable hit rate in using both 35mm and 120, but 4x5 has been so horribe in terms of dust, I have yet to print a single negative after 2 months, terrible ROI...

So I do a lot of what has been said here, clean the holders in between uses, store them full time in their own anti-static ziplock bags and even load them in my bathroom after adding some humidity via turning on the shower. All my holders are near new if not brand new in the case of my 3 Chamonix holders. The camera is always cleaned too, it is also brand new. At the moment, I am using canned air which is darn expensive to use near daily like this, so I am interested in this nitrogen tank being used, what do I need, where does one find it?

Sometimes I get really clean negs, it surprises me. Other times I shoot a holder of 100 speed using a 10 stop ND filter making it to where the dark slide is out for up to 3 minutes...and get totally effed negs, beautifully shot, composed and souped...hairy negs...

So before I punt this format as totally unusable, what other solutions are other people who LIVE in very arid climates like the West and South West employing to control dust to the point that they can make quality prints from their negs without hairs botching it all up?

And just what kind of vacuum are people using for the bellows and the holders? And worst of all, how are multi-day Trekkers dealing with re-loading in the field if a changing bag is a dust trap? The Harrison Pup tent looks like one option but at 2 pounds, is a lot of weight for truly remote work.

I hate to give up the format, but thus far, I am able to get printable / saleable photographs far, far more consistently with medium format and with films like Acros 100 and Pan-F, I can easily go as big as 30" x 30" so 4x5 better start pulling it's own weight and fast....

[Mark Woods]

Goggle gas supplies for your area. Also, welding supplies will often carry other types of gas. I agree with the above statements. I always load my film in my darkroom. I realize this isn't an option if you're camping or on the road.

[ROL]

And just what kind of vacuum are people using for the bellows and the holders? And worst of all, how are multi-day Trekkers dealing with re-loading in the field if a changing bag is a dust trap? The Harrison Pup tent looks like one option but at 2 pounds, is a lot of weight for truly remote work.

...a lot of kvetching. I feel your pain. The cleanest negs. I've ever had are those loaded in the field in my Harrison Pup on Elsie's tailgate. I never carried it though. For carrys, I load in my sleeping bag at night. My current (down) bags all have black interiors and full zippers, which can be manipulated to form "sleeves" in which to work reasonably securely (in the dark!). Those negs. also tended to fare better dust–wise than what I load in my dedicated darkroom. The bane of my LF existence is curly micro–fibers that leave evidence of their presence on developed negatives, presumably from fleece wear.

[cyrus]

"Cool and dry" is bad. Humidity reduces dust. That's why I'm loading film in dry environments, I try steam up a shower and then load film in the bathroom afterwards. The moisture does a great job of reducing free flowing dust.

You can tell when dust gets on a neg by looking at the print. If the dust spot is dark, it means that the dust found its way onto the neg before/during exposure. If the dust spot is light, then the dust settled after the print was exposed (probably during drying.) This can help reduce the issue.

Note that cleaning the bellows is absolutely necessary. Once you pull the (plastic) darkslide, it creates a static charge and instantly attracts dust that's on the interior of the bellows. The expansion of the bellows also creates dust.

[Serge S]

Just wondering has anyone ever tried endust on the holders? It has antistatic properties. Could be worth a shot.
All this talk of dust reminds me of dust issues with sensors of digital cameras:)

Cheers,

Serge

[Kodachrome25]

So my wife helped me out on this a bit. Being the calculating scientist she is, she remembered that the last time I re-loaded was when we were at 12,000 feet in our camper and I was using my changing bag which is quite old. I thought it was really clean because I hardly used it but I guess not.

So last night I went through the cleaning ritual and loaded in my partially steamed bathroom. I then cleaned all my gear, my holders live in bags full time. I shot six sheets this morning, exposures ranging from 1/8th of a second to a full 16 minutes. By and large, the film came out much much better with one sheet being spotless and most of the other with just one or two tiny specs. The hairs I referred to we're lint sized hairs, not large hairs like some might have misunderstood. Only on the 16 minute exposure did I find a couple of those lint hairs, not too bad I guess.

I also got to talking with the friend of mine who gave me a lot of the fine darkroom equipment I own like the jobo and the Ecowash. He told me he is a very good neg and print spotter and could help me deal with problem negs. Since he is local, I am going to outsource the spotting to him for a mutaully agreeable amount.

So I am sticking with this for a bit, the film is looking wonderful in the Jobo and battle with dust will be met with robust execution...

Thanks for the tips, I hope the thread revival pays off for others who will read it.

[JMB]

Where do you get the nitrogen tanks and apparatus? I take it that nitrogen has dust repellent properties? In other words, why nitrogen? Thanks. JMB

[JMB]

Oh, I see. Apparently nitrogen has anti-static properties.

[wombat2go]

https://www.box.com/s/ugsv2xu8kxp50a9umb8m

I made this "DustHutch" which has a range hood with the fan inverted, drawing air through an air con filter on top and blowing down so that no outside air swirls in while the fan is running. Has a rack in the upper part for drying negs and prints.
It is good for lens changing and sensor cleaning too.
It has eliminated dusty negs so far.
I am working with 35 mm, and now towards 6 by 9 on the Graflex, I might need a bigger version after that!

[Mark Woods]

I'm not sure why nitrogen is used. It's how I was trained in the film industry. Probably because it's inert and cheap. My small tank that lasts about a year costs about $18 to fill (replace). I also blow the negs before I enlarge them. No dust problems in Pasadena, CA.

[Pawlowski6132]

I'm confused. How would any dust settle on your negative prior to developing? Further, any dust on the negative would be rinsed off in the developer.

My guess is 100% of dust sticks there during drying.

[Michael Alpert]

All my holders are near new if not brand new in the case of my 3 Chamonix holders. The camera is always cleaned too, it is also brand new.

This may have been a large part of your problem. At least in my experience, new film holders and new cameras have always arrived with plenty of hard-to-remove dust and loose fibers.

[JMB]

I'm not sure why nitrogen is used. It's how I was trained in the film industry. Probably because it's inert and cheap. My small tank that lasts about a year costs about $18 to fill (replace). I also blow the negs before I enlarge them. No dust problems in Pasadena, CA.



Where do you get tanks and apparatus? This seems worth a try. --JMB

[John Olsen]

Don't load after a haircut or beardtrim for sure. Sponge the darkroom floor the day before developing. Use an anti-static sheet in your clothes dryer and wear clean clothes (sounds like your mother doesn't it?). Turn off heating and ventillation system when moving film from PhotoFlo to closed drying cabinet or closet. Get rid of your dog; snakes make better photo-pets. Cross your fingers and pray to the dust gods.

[Jim Andrada]

I live in Tucson (Like it says). Hot dry and dusty with lots of great lightning and other static electricity sources.

I don't obsess about it - just load and shoot. Admittedly 8 x 10 is a little less fussy than 4 x 5 but I find I get as much or more dust by just handling the negs for scanning so I learned how to spot in PS. PITA but I can live with it.

[photobymike]

Oh, I see. Apparently nitrogen has anti-static properties.

i never heard of that before.... air is mostly nitrogen and it can make anything charged.... air or nitrogen flowing thru a hose and then flowing across the neg produces a charge. just ask anybody thats ever flown an airplane.... my setup has a ground wire attached to the metal air nozzle with the other end on a earth ground. < 6 foot copper and steel rod driven in the ground outside the window where i work. There is a noticeable difference on how much dust i fight with.... also the compressor is well grounded. Nitrogen to expensive and to much of a hassel

its the process of gas moving over a dissimular surface that charges ... like thu the hose and when you blow off the negs or glass they can get a charge. Its not the gas or air that holds the charge its the surface that it is blown on... the ground on the nozzle is more to equalize the electrical potential on me and not so much of the air coming out.

[Mark Woods]

Nitrogen tanks can be bought (rented) from any welding supply or gas supplier.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

Don't load after a haircut or beardtrim for sure. Sponge the darkroom floor the day before developing. Use an anti-static sheet in your clothes dryer and wear clean clothes (sounds like your mother doesn't it?). Turn off heating and ventillation system when moving film from PhotoFlo to closed drying cabinet or closet. Get rid of your dog; snakes make better photo-pets. Cross your fingers and pray to the dust gods.

Dog isn't the problem, it's the cat. I just have to keep her out of the computer room when I scan stuff, she wants to help, likes to sit on the platen. I just lock her in the bedroom while I do my thing, it seems to have helped a lot. I have two bathrooms, so I can hang my film in one to dry, the cat stays out of that one. You just have to be careful with a Persian Cat. Just check out all that fur!:

79772

[photobymike]

Here is my cat Spaaz. She loves it when i start scanning .. she sits on the shelf next to the scanner watching the light on top as i scan. She goes crazy and runs away when i cut loose with some compressed are. She must think its a huge cat hissing at her... LOL LOL its so funny to watch as she jumps about 4 feet and starts running on the tile floor slipping and sliding all over

7978279783

[denverjims]

Guessing that most of the 'tricks' have been stated here but, living out here
in the dusty dry west has taught me some about this. I had no idea how much
this was a factor when I went from 120 to LF but I think I am getting the hang
of this a bit so....

1. You can't damp wipe, air blow & vacuum too much. I've found that order works
best for me. Bought myself a brush attachment for my vacuum which I cleaned and
keep in a plastic bag and use just for cleaning film holders. Vaccum, vacuum, vacuum!

2. I totally agree with those who say to not assume new film holders are dust free.
Fully clean them all as soon as you get them. Goes double (maybe triple) for used
ones. After cleaning, keep in plastic bags until ready to load.

3. Wipe down the surface you will be using to load on with a damp sponge just
before you start to remove as much as you can.

4. I use plastic holders some but have found the Grafmatic metal holders seem to
solve the static charge 'lightning' & dust stickyness issues found sometimes with
plastic bags & plastic holders. Have yet to see any static discharge on the metal
film septums.

When using plastic holders I try to remove them from and replace them into the
plastic bag slowly to minimize static (when I remember that is).

The biggest downside to the Grafmatics, especially the older & much used ones is
that they have more places to store dust/hairs than standard holders. If you
decide to use them, get the maintenance manual and learn how to take them apart
to get at all of the light leak seals (felt-like material) so you can clean them fully.
Again, vacuum works well.

5. Dust/hairs seem to love living on the inside of bellows out here. Until, that is,
it is time to jump onto the film. Damp wipe & vacuum inside at least every other
trip out. Air doesn't seem to work for me as well here for some reason - just
rearranges dust rather than remove - although others seem to be better at using
it.

6. Inspect the film side of the holder just as you are about to insert it into the
camera. Even the plastic bags are not immune to building up dust & you can
remove it from the outside of the holder before it is put inside your camera.

7. Finally, only re-use those bags a couple of times before replacing w/ new ones.

I'm sure most out there are rolling their eyes with boredom but I've gotten so much
from folks here in the forum maybe one of these ideas might help someone out.

Jim

[JMB]

Nitrogen tanks can be bought (rented) from any welding supply or gas supplier.


Thank you! I am going to give this a try.

The HEPA filter also recommended sounds like it has multiple benefits as well.

[Mark Woods]

Glad to help. Post your favorable results. ;-)

[C. D. Keth]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but wooden film holders are better dustwise than the plastic ones. If you already have plastic ones or prefer them because of the easier care and dimensional stability, you can wipe them down with dry anti-static wipes and store them in the anti-static plastic bags that computer components come in. Reducing the static element went a long way toward eliminating dust on my negatives in this dry, dusty southern california climate.