Aperture not opening all the way for a 210/5.6 Symmar in a Compur

[Frank Petronio]

I just picked this up this lens quite inexpensively from Germany -- a 210/5.6 Symmar-S Linhof-select in a higher-end Compur with a lot of aperture blades and 1/3 click aperture stops. Should be a great lens, right? But when I open it up all the way to f/5.6, the opening is only only about half as much as possible. Going from f/5.6 to f/8 2/3 doesn't change the aperture, it feels like it is missing a few clicks, skipping a few clicks. In any event, I can't open it all the way and it seems unreliable in stopping down at the wider aperture (the smaller apertures step steadily and proportionately).

Is this an easy fix for a good camera repair person? Or is it worn out and the parts for this shutter hard to get? It has a narrow serrated chrome rim with the large plastic paddle levers, not the last version but I think one immediately preceding the all-black Compurs. I haven't seen this vintage shutter before, the lens is in the #12M range.

If it is fixable I rather put $50-80 into it than to deal with an international return and refund. Thanks

7346373464

[Old-N-Feeble]

Have you contacted the seller? Maybe he/she will pay for the repair... or at least half of it.

[Frank Petronio]

I will but first I am asking the brain trust here to see if they know what the issue might be and if it is a simple repair or not? No camera repair person gives estimates over the phone about something not in their hands so before I send it for repair, I want to see if it is reasonable or whether I should just send the lens back for a full refund.

If the entire shutter needs replacement then I won't keep it but if all it needs is a tightening or a spring, then I want to keep it.

[BrianShaw]

No camera repair person gives estimates over the phone about something not in their hands so before I send it for repair, I want to see if it is reasonable or whether I should just send the lens back for a full refund.

You can easily get a quote for a "complete overhaul" over the phone, but what you won't get is any guarantee that the aperture issue is fixable. I can tell you that two people will overhaul that for about $85 and another will charge you about $135 (shipping may not be included). If the aperture moves then stops (like it is stuck) I would assume that a good cleaning will likely fix it up... assuming that all blades are moving in the same direction at the same rate.

[BrianShaw]

p.s. The exterior looks dirty. I'd assume that the dirt has migrated to the innards and that is your major issue. IO fyou really got it for a good price you may have got a good deal, wheter an overhaul is needed or not. It's an older lens... I'd either return it or pay to have it overhauled. But that's just me... I'm not into that price-reduction thing, either as a buyer or a seller.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I'm NOT recommending you do this but... if it were mine I'd remove the lens cells and soak that shutter in naphtha working the speeds and aperture while it's soaking just to determine if it can be CLA'd. If it works fairly well after a good sloshing then it can probably be serviced.

[BrianShaw]

I'm NOT recommending you do this but...

I'm glad to see that you included that preface!

[Frank Petronio]

Haha no I am not soaking it in lighter fluid and it isn't gummed up or dirty at all. It actually is quite clean, I just turn up the clarity and fill for descriptive "worse case" digital shots. Thanks though, I've been around the block and have had many lenses cleaned, lubed, adjusted, etc.

But back to my question, does anyone have any experience with this particular issue and shutter?

[Leigh]

if it were mine I'd remove the lens cells and soak that shutter in naphtha ...
Why do people keep posting this absolute crap?

That's the worst thing you could possibly do to a shutter.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

No, it's not crap!! This can be a good indicator regarding whether or not a shutter can be PROPERLY SERVICED WITHOUT A MAJOR OVERHAUL. I'll agree with you that PEOPLE DO INGEST AND VOMIT FORTH CRAP without know what they're talking about.

[BrianShaw]

good luck, Frank.

[Leigh]

No, it's not crap!! This can be a good indicator regarding whether or not a shutter can be PROPERLY SERVICED WITHOUT A MAJOR OVERHAUL. I'll agree with you that PEOPLE DO INGEST AND VOMIT FORTH CRAP without know what they're talking about.
It's a good indicator that the person who suggests it knows absolutely nothing about shutters or how to repair them.

I've made my living servicing LF shutters and in-lens shutters like those in Hasselblad lenses. Have you?

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

Where are your credentials, Leigh? I have none except personal experience of determining whether hundreds of shutters can be properly serviced for a reasonable fee... just CLA'd by a decent tech... and I've been right every single time.

[Leigh]

Where are your credentials, Leigh? I have none...

Obviously.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

Obviously.

- Leigh

Where are your credentials, Leigh? Stop puking out the most recent rhetoric that's popular at the moment. I only repeat what I've seen for myself many times.

[Leigh]

I'm a graduate of National Camera in Colorado. I was employed as a camera repair tech.

Now put your nonsense opinions where they won't get burned by the Texas sun.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

Leigh... If you're really a good technician then you simply cannot deny that removing alien material and dried up lubricants can't help a shutter to function temporarily until a true CLA can be done.

[Leigh]

Putting any solvent in a shutter without disassembling same does a couple of things:
1) It dissolves the various lubricants and co-mingles them, so none of them are in the right place or doing the right job.
2) It deposits these co-mingled lubricants on the diaphragm blades, preventing them from operating properly.
3) It removes lubricants from the locations where they're needed, increasing friction and wear.

If a shutter in that condition meets your definition of "working properly", then have at it.

Remind me not to buy any of the used equipment you expect to sell here.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

Leigh... You've completely failed to comprehend what I wrote. Any lube... even water... will allow a shutter to function well enough, while soaking wet, to determine if the shutter can be properly serviced... after the foreign matter and dried lube is completely removed. If the lube is completely removed then how can it migrate "anywhere"?

I call BS on your "training and experience".

[Leigh]

I call BS on your "training and experience".
Who cares? You do not understand how shutters work, or what lubricants do, or anything else related to mechanical systems.
That's obvious from your comments.

Your opinions are based on nothing, and are of no value whatsoever.

It will be interesting to link this thread to any FS ads you might place here or on APUG.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

My opinions are based on EXPERIENCE, Leigh. If a shutter CAN BE PROPERLY SERVICED at low cost I'VE NEVER BEEN WRONG by soaking in naphtha to remove gunk and grit to determine if the silly thing works. NO... this isn't enough and PROPER CLEANING AND CORRECT LUBE IN PROPER AMOUNTS IN THE PROPER PLACES must be employed. BUT... to determine if a shutter JUST NEEDS A CLA THIS METHOD WORKS.

I'm NOT saying soaking in naphtha is proper servicing. I'm saying it helps to determine if there are more serious mechanical problems.

You're welcome to comment in any ads I might place but refrain from disparaging BS based on your complete lack of real-world experience and knowledge of what I might be selling.

[Leigh]

Yes, OnF, I'm sure you've never been wrong.

Anyone who doesn't believe that can just ask you.

One common question that's asked regarding experience...
Do you have ten years' experience, or one year's experience ten times over?

In simple terms, it's asking what you learned over that time period.
Obviously in your case, you haven't learned anything.

I was a full-time camera repair tech for about four years. I've been repairing my own gear for about 50 years.

- Leigh

[Old-N-Feeble]

Leigh... I'm saying I've never been wrong about the many shutters that have passed through my hands regarding if they just needed a CLA vs. more serious mechanical issues. My experience spans about 40 years. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Don't take it so personally. I didn't say that tech service isn't needed. I said that one can clean a shutter well enough to determine if a simple CLA will suffice. What's so difficult to comprehend about that?

[Frank Petronio]

Umm, Leigh, now that Mr. Feeble has been added to my ignore list (as you might consider doing, just a tip...) what do you think about my original question, up 23 posts back? Thanks

[Old-N-Feeble]

Frank / Leigh... I don't add folks to my "Ignore List". I don't feel the need to. My "Ignore List" is empty. Why do you feel the need to ignore other members here?

[Leigh]

Hi Frank,

I've been thinking about your original question, and can't come up with a good explanation.

I'll take a look at it (gratis) if you want. PM me.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

Any other comments? I think I will just return this, there are plenty of cheap 210s out there.

[BrianShaw]

None from me... other than if the price was really a steal I'd be tempted to have it serviced and hope that it is repairable. Honestly, i'm with Leigh in thinking the situation is peculiar. (or, at least, i think that is what Leigh said... there is so much extraneous chatter taht I didn't go back to verify my recollection.) Only you know the level of risk you are interested in assuming. Good luck with whatever your decision is, Frank.

[Frank Petronio]

I suspect that whatever controls the detents is worn out or jammed so the likelihood of having parts in the USA might be slim since it is an uncommon shutter. Pity because the lens has a more rounded aperture than the usual Copals or later Compurs. Apparently German eBay has even harsher buyer protections so all I have to do is ship it back and I'm good.

Thanks everyone!

[Old-N-Feeble]

The best of luck and best wishes to you, Frank.

[Frank Petronio]

Thanks Mr. Feeble! (no longer ignored)

[Old-N-Feeble]

Thanks Mr. Feeble! (no longer ignored)

Thank you, Frank. Despite those who think otherwise... I really do care... and have at least some residual knowledge left in my dying brain. ;)

[Frank Petronio]

How old and feeble are you really? Some of the 80-plus year olds here are pretty sharp, so you must be 100, right?

[Old-N-Feeble]

No... I'm only 51 but a neurological disease is killing my brain. I'm just trying hanging on. ;)

[John Koehrer]

WRT to the original question. I'd suspect that the shutter had been reassembled incorrectly or with the incorrect part!

[E. von Hoegh]

Where are your credentials, Leigh? Stop puking out the most recent rhetoric that's popular at the moment. I only repeat what I've seen for myself many times.

His credentials are immediately obvious to anyone who is knowledgeable. Look up "Dunning-Kruger effect"

[Old-N-Feeble]

His credentials are immediately obvious to anyone who is knowledgeable. Look up "Dunning-Kruger effect"

Yes, I am superior. Seriously though... dunking the shutter in naptha and keeping it submerged while working it through all speeds can tell you if the shutter just needs a "proper" CLA or if there is likely a more serious problem. Have you tried it?

[E. von Hoegh]

Yes, I am superior. Seriously though... dunking the shutter in naptha and keeping it submerged while working it through all speeds can tell you if the shutter just needs a "proper" CLA or if there is likely a more serious problem. Have you tried it?

Yes. I've also been working on fine mechanisms for over 30 years, "fine mechanism" including everything from watches to Woodward governors and vintage aircraft instruments such as chronometric tachometers and early gyro stuff, with a specialisation in restoration of 17th to 19th century timepieces, emphasis on precision timepieces - in which area about 30% of my work is un-doing what incompetents have done in the past.

[Old-N-Feeble]

I don't work on my own shutters... just use naphtha to determine if all they need is a CLA. This often lets me know if a shutter worth sending in to be serviced. It's a cost-saving thing and it works for me.

[E. von Hoegh]

I don't work on my own shutters... just use naphtha to determine if all they need is a CLA. This often lets me know if a shutter worth sending in to be serviced. It's a cost-saving thing and it works for me.

And if, in your judgement, it doesn't need to be sent in, what happens to it? "For Sale" forum?

[Vaughn]

Internet madness!

O-N-F has already stated that he would send it in for a CLA.

1) the lens is already non-operable
2) he wants to know if it is just gunked up, or has a mechanical problem that needs repair and/or parts
3) if the solvent bath allows the shutter to fire, then it gets sent in for a CLA
or
4) if the solvent bath can not get the shutter to fire (thus a mechanical problem beyond the need of just a CLA), is the lens worth sending in for repair.

The question becomes, is the repair person the shutter gets sent to for a CLA helped or hindered by O-N-F's use of the solvent bath. This question has not yet been answered.

In the case of the shutter in the OP, perhaps the solvent bath is a bit pre-mature. Thus the need for a little research.

[E. von Hoegh]

Internet madness!

O-N-F has already stated that he would send it in for a CLA.

1) the lens is already non-operable
2) he wants to know if it is just gunked up, or has a mechanical problem that needs repair and/or parts
3) if the solvent bath allows the shutter to fire, then it gets sent in for a CLA
or
4) if the solvent bath can not get the shutter to fire (thus a mechanical problem beyond the need of just a CLA), is the lens worth sending in for repair.

The question becomes, is the repair person the shutter gets sent to for a CLA helped or hindered by O-N-F's use of the solvent bath. This question has not yet been answered.
In the case of the shutter in the OP, perhaps the solvent bath is a bit pre-mature. Thus the need for a little research.

Actuating a dysfunctional shutter in (or out of) a solvent bath can in some instances cause further damage. Not to mention further work for the person doing the CLA by washing crap into places the crap would never get without the solvent bath. Edit - To a skilled and experienced precision mechanic, these points are so obvious as to not bear mentioning.

The basic message from repair persons is "LEAVE IT THE F&CK ALONE"

[Frank Petronio]

Well I tried the lighter fluid trick and then I threw a match on it and it solved my problems so consider the issue solved, thanks!

[E. von Hoegh]

Internet madness!

Madness indeed. Bad information has a way of spreading like TB in a prison.

[Vaughn]

Actuating a dysfunctional shutter in (or out of) a solvent bath can in some instances cause further damage. Not to mention further work for the person doing the CLA by washing crap into places the crap would never get without the solvent bath. Edit - To a skilled and experienced precision mechanic, these points are so obvious as to not bear mentioning.

The basic message from repair persons is "LEAVE IT THE F&CK ALONE"

Thanks you. This is much more helpful than any of the previous posts on this side issue.

On Ted Orland's Photographic Truths poster he has (paraphrased, and a bit dated):

You can use a butter knife to fix a camera what a camera shop would charge you $10 to fix.

followed with:

A camera shop will charge you $75 to repair a camera you tried to fix with a butter knife.

[BrianShaw]

Well I tried the lighter fluid trick and then I threw a match on it and it solved my problems so consider the issue solved, thanks!

immolation... the ultimate solution!

[E. von Hoegh]

A friend had this sign on the wall of his shop:

Shop labor rate - $75/hr

If you diagnose problem - $150/hr

If you've tried to fix it before bringing it here - bring it elsewhere.

[Vaughn]

Madness indeed. Bad information has a way of spreading like TB in a prison.

Definitely -- like the mis-information that Linhof hand-picked lenses, thus Linhof lenses are better than the factory branded lenses. That one will never disappear.

Vaughn

PS -- I have seen per-hour prices that were also higher if you wanted to watch the item be repaired...

[E. von Hoegh]

immolation... the ultimate solution!

Defenestration is good, too.

[E. von Hoegh]

Oh,forgot...

Frank, there's a good chance your aperture machanism was reassembled improperly, in which case it's a sort of simple "repair"

[Vaughn]

Defenestration is good, too.

Then sold on ebay as "minty"...:cool:

[Frank Petronio]

I just sent it back, as much as I like Compurs, I think I will stick to modern Copals from now on. I went back to a lens with a Copal and it has been trouble free and simple, and it is nice to have the same levers and such consistent between lenses.

[Old-N-Feeble]

And if, in your judgement, it doesn't need to be sent in, what happens to it? "For Sale" forum?

Yes, perhaps, with full disclosure. I'm not a cheat. ;)

[E. von Hoegh]

Yes, perhaps, with full disclosure. I'm not a cheat. ;)

I'm not accusing you of cheating. But I doubt I'd buy a lens that I knew was a) not working, and b) fiddled with.

A better way to see if a shutter has life left would be to warm it gently. You could remove the glass and safely warm it to 150f, most sticky shutters sound and work fine when warm.

[Old-N-Feeble]

That's a good idea. I hadn't thought of warming to soften thickened lubes. I'll give that a try.