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antonroland
11-May-2012, 15:30
Hello All

I see no "Introduce yourself" forum so I'll just jump in here...

I got a "British" camera from a friend...anyone on here maybe who owns one or shoots one?

It is in pretty good nick but needs some attention, would love to hear from you!

Anton

Brian C. Miller
11-May-2012, 16:02
Welcome, Anton! Every camera is a good place to start, I say. You probably have a whole-plate format camera. Film is still being cut to that size, and Ilford is doing it's run of odd format sizes. I'm sure there will be some new film available for it.

Did you get film holders with your camera? Those might require a bit of searching for more of them. Most "old" lenses just need a bit of cleaning, and there are a number here who use lenses from the mid-1800s. The bellows probably need to be replaced, and then your camera will be ready for another 150 years!

The Introductions forum is down towards the bottom of the forum list, so I'm sure that the moderators will scoot this thread over there.

Steven Tribe
11-May-2012, 17:33
Josiah Thomas Chapman. Active from 1874.
Read more at Earlyphotography.co.uk.
The "British" sounds like the traditional UK type field camera.

antonroland
12-May-2012, 04:10
Hello folks

Sorry, I typed a response between 01:00 and 02:00 this morning but never clicked the reply / submit button...

Brian, thanks for the welcome. This half plate, full plate thing is new to me...it looks like 4 x 5 will be close but maybe slightly too large.

Will make a plan, even if I have to cut it myself.

I got 3 holders with it, two badly damaged but one in very good nick, almost as new...the lens looks remarkably good despite a ding on the front which should not affect IQ. The aperture adjustment will need some attention though, seems to be stuck wide open.

Believe it or not but the bellows is in perfect shape...some flaking on the outside but no pinholes I could spot with a small torch.

What I will have to do is source a suitable replacement ground glass as there is currently a piece of clear glass in there.

Then, the Thornton Pickard shutter box doesn't seem to be compatible...do I need it?

Would love to hear more on that.

Cheers,

Anton

antonroland
12-May-2012, 04:11
Josiah Thomas Chapman. Active from 1874.
Read more at Earlyphotography.co.uk.
The "British" sounds like the traditional UK type field camera.

That is the one!

Brian C. Miller
12-May-2012, 12:05
I haven't used a Thorton Pickard shutter myself, but others on this forum used them regularly.

The lens you have doesn't have an integral shutter, just the aperture diaphram or Waterhouse stops (plates with holes for the various aperture sizes). The lens you have is known as a "barrel" lens, i.e., it's just a little brass barrel with bits of glass at either end. Without the shutter, you'd have to get some practice with putting the lens cap on and off.

Good to hear that the bellows are in good shape! They can be replaced, but on some cameras it requires you to get artsy-craftsy. ;)

I'm sure that others will be able to chime in with where to purchase the appropriate film sizes.

Enjoy!

Steven Tribe
12-May-2012, 13:31
Bellows were made to a standard which was far in excess of the expected life of the cameras (10-20 years?) at the time.
The Victorians were experts at getting hold of quality hides and the tanning processes since then, have become environmental friendly but less effective!
A bit like the old lueing technique (evaporating the mercury from a thin gold amalgam) for gold was much better than applying gold leaf.
I have a number of bellows that are 100 years and which have bee folded and stored properly and are good for another 100 years. Bad folding and damp storage will destroy even the best bellows.

Emil Schildt
13-May-2012, 04:05
Sitting looking at a camera like that. ...

On mine, there's two holes for tripod - on on the side of the camera. IF your camera is exactely like mine, then BE CAREFUL!! I would not use the thread/hole in the side of the camera..
Doing that broke the camera for me!! (Old thin wood couldn't carry the weight.)

Beautiful camera though.

Image?

antonroland
13-May-2012, 07:03
I haven't used a Thorton Pickard shutter myself, but others on this forum used them regularly.

The lens you have doesn't have an integral shutter, just the aperture diaphram or Waterhouse stops (plates with holes for the various aperture sizes). The lens you have is known as a "barrel" lens, i.e., it's just a little brass barrel with bits of glass at either end. Without the shutter, you'd have to get some practice with putting the lens cap on and off.

Good to hear that the bellows are in good shape! They can be replaced, but on some cameras it requires you to get artsy-craftsy. ;)

I'm sure that others will be able to chime in with where to purchase the appropriate film sizes.

Enjoy!

Looking forward to more responses!

As it is there is a bit of a ding and the box is cracked, makes closing it properly a bit of a mission...the lens is a "Wray", the numbers 6 1/2. X 5. 8 1/2 inch appear on the barrel and a serial number 10424. It screws into a brass ring mounted on the front standard so I do not think that the shutter will work without some modifications...something I would rather not do...

antonroland
13-May-2012, 07:05
Bellows were made to a standard which was far in excess of the expected life of the cameras (10-20 years?) at the time.
The Victorians were experts at getting hold of quality hides and the tanning processes since then, have become environmental friendly but less effective!
A bit like the old lueing technique (evaporating the mercury from a thin gold amalgam) for gold was much better than applying gold leaf.
I have a number of bellows that are 100 years and which have bee folded and stored properly and are good for another 100 years. Bad folding and damp storage will destroy even the best bellows.

I got two little exposure note books with it...the oldest entry lists 10 January 1898, really would love to take pictures with it eventually!

antonroland
13-May-2012, 07:11
Sitting looking at a camera like that. ...

On mine, there's two holes for tripod - on on the side of the camera. IF your camera is exactely like mine, then BE CAREFUL!! I would not use the thread/hole in the side of the camera..
Doing that broke the camera for me!! (Old thin wood couldn't carry the weight.)

Beautiful camera though.

Image?

I will see if I can get some images up later tonight, very much in a state of renovation but nothing that cannot be done with some patience and love.

I measured the film size in the inserts and it looks like 3.5" x 4.25" is the size...about 4 x 5 aspect.

On the point of tripod mount, I noticed the side mount...thanks for the heads-up...I also have the (rather wobbly) wooden tripod legs but there are definitely bits missing between legs and the mount bracket underneath.

Cheers everyone

antonroland
13-May-2012, 07:27
UPDATE...

I figured out the tripod legs...she is standing on them right now!

Steven Tribe
13-May-2012, 09:17
Now the exposure notebooks are probably a unique bonus! I have seen some older plates with cameras but not "shooting lists".
I always assumed that these cameras were not used that often and not later than the first world war?

Jay DeFehr
13-May-2012, 10:21
Hello Anton,

3.25 x 4.25 is 1/4 plate, and a nifty format, I think. There are two films (slow, and slower) available from Freestyle Photo in this size. These negatives enlarge beautifully to 12x16, and make very nice contact prints, as well. I have an SLR in the same format, and it's a peach. Good luck getting it up and running. Enjoy!

antonroland
13-May-2012, 11:22
Now the exposure notebooks are probably a unique bonus! I have seen some older plates with cameras but not "shooting lists".
I always assumed that these cameras were not used that often and not later than the first world war?

In time I will put up some pics of all the goodies, folks. Things are just a wee bit hectic here now...

Cheers all!

antonroland
13-May-2012, 11:24
Hello Anton,

3.25 x 4.25 is 1/4 plate, and a nifty format, I think. There are two films (slow, and slower) available from Freestyle Photo in this size. These negatives enlarge beautifully to 12x16, and make very nice contact prints, as well. I have an SLR in the same format, and it's a peach. Good luck getting it up and running. Enjoy!

Hello Jay

Will Google them...any chance for an online shop as I am at the bottom end of Africa, LOL.

Slow is good, slower is even better...I suppose I would digitise the negs anyway, will do my best to keep you folks updated.

antonroland
1-Dec-2012, 12:38
Hello everyone

I hope this is permissible but here is a link to my blog where I give a bit more info on this camera.

http://www.antonroland.com/2012/12/boys-and-their-toys-with-a-seriously-vintage-flavour/

Thanks to the day-job my time is very limited so I hardly get to any forums nowadays.

Mods, if this link is found to be undesirable and it is removed I will understand...if it stays it will be a time-efficient way to keep you folks up to date when anything worth noting happens.

I should have the lens back by next week, it is very nearly done. Cleaned up, reassembled with a pin made to work the aperture which now works a charm. All that remains lens-wise is a straightening of a metal flange at the front of the lens. She must have had a nasty fall.

Then to fix a few minor dings to the body and place an order with Mr Hopf and she is good to go!

IanG
1-Dec-2012, 13:02
If you need that shutter fixed, it's nowhere near as bad as many I've revived :D

Ian

Steven Tribe
1-Dec-2012, 14:00
No Anton, this kind of link is appreciated not deprecated!
Get in touch with Ian as he is Mr. T-P Shutters!
If you really have no 1/4 plate lenses available, I may be able to help you, as this is not the size I use.
Do have a selection of glass plate holders? 1/4 plate film sheath holders are available that allow you to use these mahogany masterpieces with modern cut film.

antonroland
2-Dec-2012, 01:54
If you need that shutter fixed, it's nowhere near as bad as many I've revived :D

Ian


No Anton, this kind of link is appreciated not deprecated!
Get in touch with Ian as he is Mr. T-P Shutters!
If you really have no 1/4 plate lenses available, I may be able to help you, as this is not the size I use.
Do have a selection of glass plate holders? 1/4 plate film sheath holders are available that allow you to use these mahogany masterpieces with modern cut film.

This is fantastic news folks!!

Ian and I are already chatting via PM so will be sending it to him asap as his schedule allows.

Steven, I will definitely take you up on that offer, thanks!

I have a Wray lens that I got with it, I should have it back soon as it is being cleaned up and fixed by a local guy who knows enough so I'll trust him with this kind of thing...will put out another blog article as soon as it is back.

Now I plan to use this old girl as much as I can but I realise that some of the things I will be doing to her might cause her to lose value. She is not pristine and will never be in an as-new condition again so I would much rather get her workable so I (and others hopefully) can enjoy prints of images captured with her.

She has a few minor cracks but all the wood is there, it is simply a matter of taking it apart and gluing / reinforcing where necessary...Ian are you seeing this? Wink, wink...

If a pristine example does come across my way I will probably buy it and preserve it for the sake of owning it...

You folks might not understand it and it might sound like I am exaggerating but down here in S.A. dozens of these cameras might have ended up on the rubbish dump simply because they are "old" and people simply do not give a damn to understand and appreciate them. Many more might be going there soon once some cupboard in Grandpa's house is cleaned out.

Then a nutter like me comes along...LOL!

So yes, I am completely bonkers about finding things like this and I cannot wait to see the first neg coming out of her.

Steve, as far as plates go, would you kindly give me more info as to what is available etc etc?

Maybe we can take it to PM and I am quite willing to send you detailed pics of whatever you should require.

Thanks again guys! Christmas came early this year!

Anton

Steven Tribe
2-Dec-2012, 02:08
Anton, please use my email link as my PM box fills up every other day and I have been known to delete important, rather than chatty messages.
I don't think I have any 1/4 plate film sheaths left - but I'll have a look. Snow to-day keeps me indoors!

What does the engraving on the Wray say? An RR would have been the budget version, but Wray also made an anastigmat.

This kind of topic has quite general interest, so a continuing thread (to some degree) would give lots of people insight!

antonroland
2-Dec-2012, 03:42
For those who may be interested, I am putting up images of all the pages in the two booklets on a thread at talkphotography.co.uk here:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=5161111#post5161111

I may even have found the original owner...whether we will find any living relatives / descendants who care to know about it is another question but, hey, I am curious...

Have a great day everyone!

Anton

antonroland
2-Dec-2012, 06:50
Steven

Will do so, thank you.

The lens is not with me right now, will get back to you as soon as I have it back. The focal length is expressed in inches 5 something or 6 something...will get back to you on that asap...

Was thinking of continuing this thread in the appropriate DIY section with a link back to the original?

Talk soon!

IanG
2-Dec-2012, 07:40
The usual focal lenght for a Quarter plate camera is between 5" & 6" so that sounds about right. I have an advert for Josiah T. Champan and the "British" cameras are listed as coming with a Wray lens.

Ian

Steven Tribe
2-Dec-2012, 07:57
An early Chapman RR lens (Waterhouse slot) was sold this afternoon on e**y to-day. This is not 1/4 size though.
I don't have an 1/4 plate sheaths left.
When you find out what the Wray lens is, I can look for an alternative (opticswise).

antonroland
3-Dec-2012, 01:18
Ian, I just phoned the guy working on the lens. It is an iris lens that runs f/8 - f/64, the serial number is 10424 and then the following inscription is found on the barrel:

6 1/2 inch x 5.8 1/2 inch.

Would the RR lenses have been inscribed "RR" on the lens?

Will put up an image as soon as it is possible.

antonroland
3-Dec-2012, 01:22
Steven

Thanks for the effort, will put up an image of the lens as soon as I get it back.

That numbering on the lens does puzzle me a bit...

Steven Tribe
3-Dec-2012, 02:03
From this period, an F8 means standard RR type in the absence of other data.

"6 1/2 inch x 5.8 1/2 inch." is a mistaken reading of the engraving. Must be 1/2 plate. Are you sure about the plate size being 1/4 plate?
This is one of the RR's that was made with the new Jena glass. I quote from the lens vade mecum:

"Early photographic products were said to include RR and portrait ie Petzval, lenses and Mr Wray helped to
pioneer the iris diaphragm and a 13in RR was found to keep a fully circular stop at all apertures from f8 to f64-
the circularity being a major criterion (See BJA 1889, p598) . They are mentioned in the B.J.A. 1891 as now
using the new Jena glass in a new series of lenses for hand cameras. These were of 4 to 6in focus, and the
6in was tried and found to cover 1/4plate excellently and as it was very compact, even up to 8.5x6.5in when
stopped down."

Your serial number matches another known datable Wray lens on a "given as a present" camera from the 1890's - so it is the original lens mounted on the Camera.
Chapman is a local Manchester company.

antonroland
3-Dec-2012, 07:00
From this period, an F8 means standard RR type in the absence of other data.

"6 1/2 inch x 5.8 1/2 inch." is a mistaken reading of the engraving. Must be 1/2 plate. Are you sure about the plate size being 1/4 plate?
This is one of the RR's that was made with the new Jena glass. I quote from the lens vade mecum:

"Early photographic products were said to include RR and portrait ie Petzval, lenses and Mr Wray helped to
pioneer the iris diaphragm and a 13in RR was found to keep a fully circular stop at all apertures from f8 to f64-
the circularity being a major criterion (See BJA 1889, p598) . They are mentioned in the B.J.A. 1891 as now
using the new Jena glass in a new series of lenses for hand cameras. These were of 4 to 6in focus, and the
6in was tried and found to cover 1/4plate excellently and as it was very compact, even up to 8.5x6.5in when
stopped down."

Your serial number matches another known datable Wray lens on a "given as a present" camera from the 1890's - so it is the original lens mounted on the Camera.
Chapman is a local Manchester company.

Steven

Thanks for that, I think best will be to post an image of the lens as soon as I get it back.

I also cannot comprehend that set of numbers but let's see when I get it back...

Anton

Steven Tribe
3-Dec-2012, 09:24
I may have been a bit hasty in calling this a RR!
In fact, it is somewhat stupid as I own an example of the alternative!
Wray did make an anastigmat that corresponds to your serial no (10.424) and time period. This was the Australian sounding "Platystigmat", which was marked from F8 to F64. I have a 7" with serial no. some months after yours (11.057).
This one of those lenses which nearly always had/has glass or cement problems. Some experimental glass were selected in the 1890's that didn't weather to well.
Mine is certainly sick. So I hope you have the RR and not the Wray Anastigmat!

antonroland
5-Dec-2012, 02:42
Hello Everyone

Just an update or two...

I had a look at the lens yesterday...the ding on the removable screw-on (very small) metal "hood" must still be removed but here we go...

The writing on the lens as good as I can reproduce it in type is:

6 1/2 x 5. 8 1/2 (inch)

There seems to be a very definite and deliberate spacing after the . which is intended to separate the 8 1/2 inch from the 6 1/2 x 5...

I would assume that 8 1/2 inch was then the focal length...could the 6 1/2 x 5 inch possibly denote the maximum dimensions of the negative allowed by the specific lens?

Also, I am now planning a trip to the S.A. farm where our Mr Johnson lived. The last exposure noted in one of the two booklets is listed as 21 June 1903 at 12:00 and 12:05. The middle of three film holders were used, plates 3 and 4...

I plan to find as close as possible to where our Mr Johnson may have made those exposures and to make similar exposures on 21 June 2013...110 years later to the day and minute!

Hoping this is not boring to you folks but I am absolutely fascinated by this whole thing!

P.S.

I traced the current owner of the farm where our Mr Johnson lived and used this camera in 1903 and they are all excited about this thing so I am quite keen to make this trip...MUST get the camera working soon...

Steven Tribe
5-Dec-2012, 05:28
Now the engraving makes sense!
8 1/2" is the focal length and 6.5 x 5 is the maximum plate size. This is a standard RR lens.
Wray is known for giving "odd" plate sizes rather than the max usual plate sizes used by 95% of photographers!
8.5" inches is a quite long selection for the 1/4 plate size.

IanG
5-Dec-2012, 06:02
Wray don't always mark the focal lenght, I have an f8 12"/300mm approx which just says 8"x5"

Ian

antonroland
14-Dec-2012, 09:14
85430

Here it is, the much discussed lens.

antonroland
14-Dec-2012, 09:20
I got the (rather slim) screw-on brass hood back today with ding beautifully removed and this is already fitted to the front of the lens again.

I am now talking to this same jeweler about cleaning up the very rudimentary screw pin that works the aperture to fit a little brass knob, spherical or teardrop shape...who knows, will do some further research to see if I can find shapes and approximate dimensions that the original part would have been...

Steven Tribe
14-Dec-2012, 13:16
Well this is what the aperture screw on a Wray 11,057 7" Platystigmat looks like. Something like the adjustment control on a old pocket watch.

antonroland
15-Dec-2012, 08:22
Thanks Steven

Will get a design going as close to this as possible.

Steven Tribe
3-Jan-2013, 15:42
Looking up a reference to Billcliff (another Manchester maker) I found the following:

"The other feature that shows it up as a Billcliff is the use of ebony inlay on the edge as reinforcement, as used on the Chapman "The British" camera."

Have a look at yours!

antonroland
4-Jan-2013, 02:48
Yep! Ebony inserts a plenty! Both on the camera and on the film casettes

antonroland
5-Jan-2013, 17:23
Hello everyone

I started a thread in the DIY section too which, I believe might be the more appropriate section but in case some on here do not know about it, here is a link to my latest blog article showing some progress...

http://www.antonroland.com/2013/01/kicking-off-2013-creating-total-chaos-and-the-countdown-to-21-june-2013/

Cheers All!

Steven Tribe
6-Jan-2013, 02:56
And a very nice blog too.

I notice balsa cement - I personally think water soluble glues are best for repairs. Remember some surfaces were not glued to allow movement ( I have ash framed bodies on vintage cars!). Next time in the DIY section.

antonroland
7-Jan-2013, 01:56
Steven, gotcha, I have a thread in DIY so will carry on there.

What I did up to now was purely a test carrier to see if the film would be on the right plane and I seem to have got that right enough...will show examples in the DIY thread soon!

Cheers!

Steven Tribe
9-Jan-2013, 02:40
More information (from earlyphography website UK).


A relationship developed with Joshua Billcliff, they jointly patented cameras and Billcliff cameras, such as the British, were sold under the Chapman name.

Billcliff were much bigger than Chapman. They had as many as 60 men/apprentices in their workshop in the 1890's.

antonroland
10-Jan-2013, 04:11
I wonder why, though...was it because of Chapman's fame as an "educated man" being a chemist maybe?

Interesting indeed!