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Two23
6-May-2012, 20:25
For the past year & half I was concentrating on buying a few pre-Civil War lenses, and I think I now have what I want. After buying a few of the ancients, I started buying a select few of the "classics". By classic I'm meaning lenses in early shutters made roughly 1900 to 1930. So far, I have a 1906 DAGOR 3 5/8" in dialset, a 1914 Zeiss Tessar 165mm in Compound, and a 1922 150mm Heliar in dialset. I'm looking for a Velostigmat, and also an early Protar. The Velostigmat will be no problem--they are plentiful and cheap. The Protars seem plentiful, but not cheap! Exactly what is the deal on Protars? Why are they going for crazy prices like the soft focus lenses? What I had in mind was an 1890s Protar with the wheel stop, and either already mounted in something like Prosch shutter, or I have it adapted for a Copal. I think it would be cool to have a Protar; it's the lens that changed everything around 1892. At $1,200 though, I have to wonder what makes it more special than the other anastigmats of the era?


Kent in SD

Steven Tribe
7-May-2012, 02:32
I havn't noticed any price rise in the early Protars, which, of course, are called by another name before 1900!
I think it really depends on which series you are interested in.
I can understand the lure of the series VIIa where the individual cells (series VII) will cover very large plate sizes very well.
The early series of protars (and there are many!) are really quite similar to each other - only the F18 series V being able to offer something that the Dagor can't!

If you can't find a reasonable "Zeiss" protar/anastigmat it is well worth looking for the licensed makers like Ross, Voigtländer and Krauss. I have had all of these "anastigmats" in my hands and can confirm that they are at least as good as the products from Jena.

cdholden
7-May-2012, 03:18
B&L was a large producer of them on this side of the pond.

desertrat
7-May-2012, 07:58
I've been watching auctions for protars (and clones). There are a bunch available now, but all have ridiculous starting bids or buy-it-now prices and aren't getting any nibbles. Some have been up for months. Eventually some dealer who combs the estate sales will put one up with a reasonable starting bid and people will be all over it. I'm guessing the winning bid will be less than the starting bid for the ones up now, but will probably still be more than an equivalent focal length used Symmar.

I guess Protars are getting into the same category as Dagors. The only way to get one at a decent price will be to find an early uncoated ugly one in an old unreliable shutter.

Kevin Crisp
7-May-2012, 08:26
I think the observation about the price rise is quite correct. Within the last 10 years or so I slowly put together every cell I would want for protar sets for 4X5 through 8X10. Compared to a decade ago, prices are through the roof. Why?

Part of it (a big part of it) is that eBay has gone from a true auction site to predominantly "buy it now" items, with bids entertained. The auctions that would allow one to get a good deal are more or less gone. Starting prices for a common 11"/11" set or the 11/13 set seem to be simply ludicrous, particularly given the fact that many of these highly priced lens are still in their original notoriously trouble-prone original shutters. The fact that so many of them hang on the site for a year or so suggests the asking price is out of line with the market. Lots of sellers have given up on eBay as well, which is a factor. Some of the focal lengths on the cells are extremely rare -- you can look at eBay for years trying to find the 5 and 7" single cells, but I don't see how that has changed in the last ten years or so, except that the variety on auction sites is certainly not what it was.

I also think some part of the price rise reflects the unavailability of balsam fault repairs at a price that makes repairing a protar sensible. Steve Grimes' passing eliminated his reasonably priced services, and his able successors don't offer the service. Balham Ltd. has gone out of business. Remaining vendors (such as Focal Point, which is outstanding) charge what is surely a fair price for their labor (try separating, cleaning and regluing four pieces of glass sometime) but you can easily spend more on the repair than the lens. So good ones with little or no separation command a premium.

The lenses (especially when used combined) provide a sharp, contrasty negatives, but not with a 'special effect' unique to older lenses that command high prices for that effect. The single lenses can deliver decent but not exceptional negatives, provided you adjust for focus shift and take into account some loss of sharpness at the edges. Many times I've been without a long lens and a single protar cell has saved the day, provided I work with its limitations. I've had much better luck with B&L single cells than Zeiss ones, by the way, but some people look down on the American ones. Some Zeiss cells I've tried were unusual as single cells for anything beyond contacts.

So unless you are buying them for single cells for large coverage, what exactly are you getting that you couldn't get with a convertible Symmar? I've seen people mention the "protar look" but not specifically enough that I can tell what they think they see, and they are my most often used lenses.

E. von Hoegh
7-May-2012, 08:27
For the past year & half I was concentrating on buying a few pre-Civil War lenses, and I think I now have what I want. After buying a few of the ancients, I started buying a select few of the "classics". By classic I'm meaning lenses in early shutters made roughly 1900 to 1930. So far, I have a 1906 DAGOR 3 5/8" in dialset, a 1914 Zeiss Tessar 165mm in Compound, and a 1922 150mm Heliar in dialset. I'm looking for a Velostigmat, and also an early Protar. The Velostigmat will be no problem--they are plentiful and cheap. The Protars seem plentiful, but not cheap! Exactly what is the deal on Protars? Why are they going for crazy prices like the soft focus lenses? What I had in mind was an 1890s Protar with the wheel stop, and either already mounted in something like Prosch shutter, or I have it adapted for a Copal. I think it would be cool to have a Protar; it's the lens that changed everything around 1892. At $1,200 though, I have to wonder what makes it more special than the other anastigmats of the era?


Kent in SD

There were several lens designs called "Protar", not all were convertible. Many were marked "Zeiss Anastigmat", and if you do your homework, you can probably find one at a realistic price.

Just learn a bit more than the sellers, which shouldn't be difficult.

Bill_1856
7-May-2012, 08:32
Supply, demand. Crazy people with too much money. People buying "stuff" because they "want it" not because they need it. Have you watched the Antiques Roadshow?

E. von Hoegh
7-May-2012, 08:52
Supply, demand. Crazy people with too much money. People buying "stuff" because they "want it" not because they need it. Have you watched the Antiques Roadshow?

Do you mean the "Avarice Roadshow"? Not to mention all the other dreck like Pawn Stars?

Hugo Zhang
7-May-2012, 09:05
There is a nice Zeiss Anastigmat f/18 632mm on eaby over a few hours to go and the bidding was over $4,000 last time I checked.

desertrat
7-May-2012, 09:19
The more I think about it, it's not just Protars or Dagors. Ebay sellers have forums, too, and I think word has got out that any old 'antique' looking lens is worth a bundle to 'collectors'. I'm seeing old Wolly Velostigmats and RRs, old Gundlach RRs, and projection lenses with absurd starting bids or BIN prices. I've come to realize the only auctions worth bidding on are the rare cases where some estate-saler puts up a lens without doing any checking for a low starting bid or BIN. These turn up from once a week to once a month.

I think a T-R triple is a pretty good substitute for a Protar VIIa, and once in a while one of these turns up with a reasonable starting bid. I'm very happy with mine.

E. von Hoegh
7-May-2012, 09:20
There is a nice Zeiss Anastigmat f/18 632mm on eaby over a few hours to go and the bidding was over $4,000 last time I checked.

That's a rare lens with huge coverage; for that money I'd buy a Schneider 550 though.

desertrat
7-May-2012, 09:21
There is a nice Zeiss Anastigmat f/18 632mm on eaby over a few hours to go and the bidding was over $4,000 last time I checked.

That one is in a special category. Those are treasured by ULF photograhers because they have huge coverage and are very rare.

Edit: E. beat me to it!

E. von Hoegh
7-May-2012, 09:23
The more I think about it, it's not just Protars or Dagors. Ebay sellers have forums, too, and I think word has got out that any old 'antique' looking lens is worth a bundle to 'collectors'. I'm seeing old Wolly Velostigmats and RRs, old Gundlach RRs, and projection lenses with absurd starting bids or BIN prices. I've come to realize the only auctions worth bidding on are the rare cases where some estate-saler puts up a lens without doing any checking for a low starting bid or BIN. These turn up from once a week to once a month.

I think a T-R triple is a pretty good substitute for a Protar VIIa, and once in a while one of these turns up with a reasonable starting bid. I'm very happy with mine.

A Wollensak 1a is a good substitute too, and coated.
I used an 11"/14 1/2" combo for a while, hoping it would give a nice look, like a Dagor with the benefit of two extra focal lengths. The combination was nice, but had no particular "look" and the individual cells were useable but unremarkable. I sold it.

desertrat
7-May-2012, 10:34
If I didn't already have a T-R, I would look for a 1a Wolly. But I think prices on them are going up as people give up trying to find a VIIa Protar they can afford. After all, the Wolly is a pretty decent Protar copy. It's been quite a while since I saw a 1a that anybody would be willing to bid on, but when they come up I think they sell for a good deal more than a T-R now.

Hermes07
7-May-2012, 10:39
I had an old protar given to me once. It was nothing remarkable. I'm not a fan of wide-angles so the coverage didn't mean much to me, plus the viewing image was very dim. Eventually I gave up on it and passed it on to a friend.

If they're going for big money now I can only assume it's because they're lighter/smaller than other wide-coverage, long focal length anastigmats.

Two23
7-May-2012, 10:58
I'm mostly interested in the early lenses, especially something around 1900. I like that soft, uncoated look. Funky looking shutters only add to the appeal! My main interest in the Protar is its historical significance. For unique look, I love my Heliar! I have started reading up on Protars and have found that less informed sellers often just list them as "Zeiss anastigmats." Eventually, I'll snag one. Patience is rewarded. Meanwhile, I'm hot on the trail of a Wollensak this week. There does seem to be an increasing number of eBay sellers who are what I call the "Shoot for the moon" type. GoKevin is one of these, as is the place in Greece just to name a few. I suppose the strategy is to list things for a long, long time and odds are eventually someone will impulsively buy it. The problem is when other less informed sellers see those listings they think, "Hey, if he can get $1,000 for his, mine must be worth that too." So, I sit and patiently wait. As I said, I already have a nice early DAGOR, Heliar, & Tessar to play with. There was a Darlot RR in Prosch shutter last month I should have gone for.


Kent in SD

domaz
7-May-2012, 11:43
I picked up a B&L "Zeiss anastigmat" Series V 8x10 for much much less than four digits recently. It helps if the lenses doesn't say "Protar" (even though is basically is). My copy seems to have been made much later than 1900 if the serial number lists are accurate.

Kevin Crisp
7-May-2012, 11:55
If you want a "soft uncoated look" then I think you will be disappointed, even with an early pre "protar" brass one. You're dealing with just 4 air to glass interfaces and you don't get a soft image or a flat one if you stop down.

c.d.ewen
7-May-2012, 14:10
I picked up a B&L "Zeiss anastigmat" Series V 8x10 for much much less than four digits recently. It helps if the lenses doesn't say "Protar" (even though is basically is). My copy seems to have been made much later than 1900 if the serial number lists are accurate.

How come you guys didn't have this conversation before I sold this lens (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?90289-FS-8x10-B-amp-L-Zeiss-Protar-V-f-18)?

Charley

Kevin Crisp
7-May-2012, 14:59
Hey, it sold didn't it?

c.d.ewen
7-May-2012, 16:17
Hey, it sold didn't it?

Yes - the complaint is only a rhetorical plea for pity. I certainly hope the buyer sees the thread :)

Charley

Two23
7-May-2012, 19:51
I passed on the Zeiss anastigmats/Protars this week, and tonight added a 12 inch Velostigmat in Betax 5 to my line up. I think I'm pretty well covered with the classics now--90mm DAGOR, 150mm Heliar, 165mm Tessar, and 300mm Velostigmat. I believe the Velostigmat is a similar design to the Protar, and it does give a nice look to images. Not sure of the age of this lens since Wolly serials are considered indecipherable. I can't get over how I can buy a nice 300mm Velostigmat for $210 while a Protar costs at least four times that.

Now, to try and squeeze that Betax 5 onto a Technica lens board so I can use it on my Chamonix 045n! Might need a spacer. Charley, you reading this? :D


Kent in SD

desertrat
7-May-2012, 20:36
I passed on the Zeiss anastigmats/Protars this week, and tonight added a 12 inch Velostigmat in Betax 5 to my line up. I think I'm pretty well covered with the classics now--90mm DAGOR, 150mm Heliar, 165mm Tessar, and 300mm Velostigmat. I believe the Velostigmat is a similar design to the Protar, and it does give a nice look to images. Not sure of the age of this lens since Wolly serials are considered indecipherable. I can't get over how I can buy a nice 300mm Velostigmat for $210 while a Protar costs at least four times that.

Now, to try and squeeze that Betax 5 onto a Technica lens board so I can use it on my Chamonix 045n! Might need a spacer. Charley, you reading this? :D


Kent in SD

I was watching that auction just to see how it would do. The series II f4.5 Velostigmat is a Tessar copy. It'll cover 8X10 with a little movement. The series 1A and I think later series 1 Velostigmats are the Protar VII copies. The series II f4.5 should be very sharp stopped down to f22 or smaller aperture. Some people buy the monster f4.5 lenses to shoot in the woods or other dim light situations because the large aperture helps get a visible image on the GG.

Two23
7-May-2012, 20:50
I shoot at night A LOT, and was hoping that f4.5 would help. My other 300mm is a Rodenstock 300mm f9 Geronar. The other thing that attracted me was that big Betax shutter. Not only does it look seriously cool, I've been reading I can adapt it to some of my small & midsized Petzvals. I think I'm sitting pretty good for lenses right now. Will keep an eye out but if i find something new, it will likely be to replace something I already have that's less desirable. Heck, I should probably sell a Petzval or two for that matter.


Kent in SD

c.d.ewen
8-May-2012, 07:33
Now, to try and squeeze that Betax 5 onto a Technica lens board so I can use it on my Chamonix 045n! Might need a spacer. Charley, you reading this? :D


Kent in SD

No problem. I'll have it finished by Christmas.

Charley

Jim Noel
8-May-2012, 08:31
All of this talk about wild prices for Dagors, Protars, and brass lenses in general make me think it is time to unload some of mine to pick up some cash.

cyberjunkie
12-May-2012, 16:18
I think it's time to stop spreading too much paranoia.
WE must refrain from voicing opinions that could only fuel price increases, and give unrealistic expectations to those who think that any lens is a "portrait", that any brass item is "rare", and that some "BIN" Ebay prices belong to the real world.
I must admit that i have posted on this topic, following the same line of thought: i have criticized, just few days ago, the increase in price of common projection petzvals, just because they have the Darlot logo, or some other "fashionable" brand.
Though we have to be realistic. There are the UPs and there are the DOWNs.
A few examples:
1) while the most desidered (and harder to find) soft focus lenses continue to sky-rocket, the models which are more readily available are not getting the inflated prices that were the norm just a few moths ago. All in all, if the soft-focus bubble hasn't burst, at least it got somewhat deflated.
2) the Dagors, which were extremely fashionable just two years ago, are back to more down-to-the-earth prices
3) due to the fact that some lens hoarders are driven more by fashion than by culture, many nice petzvals are selling for decent prices, provided that they don't have a famous brand name engraved on their barrels. An example are the Darlot-made no-name petzvals, which sell for much less than a Darlot-branded one.

About the incredible prices of some vendors, there are at least six of them, maybe more, that i regularly ignore.
Even after i have singled out those vendors, and excluded all unrealistic BIN prices, i usually have more than 100 memorized auctions on my Ebay account. It doesn't mean that i am planning to bid, but i like to follow the interesting items and see for how much they sell. So... there is something worth it, at least for me.
BTW, GoKevin can be useful, with its collection of pictures of past sales. :)

have fun

CJ

Two23
12-May-2012, 18:36
I think it's time to stop spreading too much paranoia.
WE must refrain from voicing opinions that could only fuel price increases, and give unrealistic expectations to those who think that any lens is a "portrait", that any brass item is "rare", and that some "BIN" Ebay prices belong to the real world.
I must admit that i have posted on this topic, following the same line of thought: i have criticized, just few days ago, the increase in price of common projection petzvals, just because they have the Darlot logo, or some other "fashionable" brand.

CJ


If I think something is inflated, or simply more than I want to pay, I don't buy it. My money talks for me. Over the past year & half I've put together a pretty nice collection of five named Petzvals and a nice Dagor, Heliar, Zeiss Tessar, and Velostigmat. I think the key is to just be patient and not buy impulsively. I don't shoot portraits so I've stayed away from soft focus lenses, other than a 250mm Imagon that caught my fancy. I should probably sell it since I haven't used it much. Eventually, bubbles burst and everything sells.


Kent in SD

Steven Tribe
13-May-2012, 02:38
Back to the starting point of this thread.
Series VII protars were still available this week at sensible prices - at least when they are called B&L C set casket.
4 VIIa lenses with U/S shutter for 50usd.

desertrat
13-May-2012, 08:29
Back to the starting point of this thread.
Series VII protars were still available this week at sensible prices - at least when they are called B&L C set casket.
4 VIIa lenses with U/S shutter for 50usd.
I just searched ebay and couldn't find this auction. Must be using the wrong search terms. The only B&L LF lens set of any kind that I could find was 5 Protar VII cells in a leather case. Current bidding is up to 520 USD with 5 days to go. It'll go much higher when the end-of-auction sniping occurs.

Steven Tribe
13-May-2012, 10:39
There are plenty of places to bid other than Ebay! One is never alone on ebay listing.
This was at the SAS auction on the 10th of May.

E. von Hoegh
14-May-2012, 07:47
There are plenty of places to bid other than Ebay! One is never alone on ebay listing.
This was at the SAS auction on the 10th of May.

6 1/2" x 8 1/2" B&L Zeiss Protar just sold for $160 in the FS forum.

Dan Fromm
14-May-2012, 08:25
6 1/2" x 8 1/2" B&L Zeiss Protar just sold for $160 in the FS forum.
Interesting. I think the seller did the buyer a large favor.

Along these lines, this morning I spotted a 150/14 Perigraphe Ser. VIa on leboncoin,asking price only 60 Euros. Per Pont's Berthiot chronology, 1905-1910, just a little bit older than the Protar V. Low prices must be catching.

domaz
14-May-2012, 10:27
Interesting. I think the seller did the buyer a large favor.

Along these lines, this morning I spotted a 150/14 Perigraphe Ser. VIa on leboncoin,asking price only 60 Euros. Per Pont's Berthiot chronology, 1905-1910, just a little bit older than the Protar V. Low prices must be catching.

Prices are "catching" in both directions. Responsible sellers and buyers look at "comparables" and past sales before listing or buying. Despite most of us believing we must be the only ones who know how to research ancient lenses we aren't. There is more and more data about old lenses being generated literally every day on the Internet.