Uh, ok I know this goes against everything but . . .

[false_Aesthetic]

I want more grain. Not a lot more. Just a little bit.
Yes, this totally goes against shooting 5x7 . . . but I (think) want it.
I'm usually shooting Tri-X or HP5 and developing in F76+ (1:9) or Xtol (1:1). (PMK for a few things too).

So here's my description:
Let's say Tri-X in Xtol enlarged to 16x20 is the equiv to 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper.
I wanna go to 320 or 400 grit.

What developers should I start looking at?


Thanks.




PS. Just humor me on this one.

[Gem Singer]

Rodinal.

[adam satushek]

Definitively not my area of expertise....but in the past I have pushed HP5 to like 3200....which increases grain nicely. Though also increases contrast too so that my not be an option. I know longer know anything about developers....but thought id chime in...no matter how useless a comment it may be.

[Mark Sawyer]

I'd go along with trying Rodinal, but I don't think the grain is bigger, just more defined.

You might also try reticulating a negative, shocking it by going from hot water to ice water.

Now go stand in the corner of the forum for saying you like grain... :rolleyes:

[bob carnie]

+1

Rodinal.

[Emil Schildt]

I'll show you two images - not mine, but two selfportraits made by my girlfriend...

They are both made from 4x5" negs. (FOMA pan 100 iso)

And it wouldn't matter if she would go bigger (5x7 or 8x10) - grain can be obtained purely during printing.....

[Bill_1856]

Dektol.

[Ari]

You could try undiluted D-76, or buy a Minox :)

[Roger Cole]

I'll show you two images - not mine, but two selfportraits made by my girlfriend...

They are both made from 4x5" negs. (FOMA pan 100 iso)

And it wouldn't matter if she would go bigger (5x7 or 8x10) - grain can be obtained purely during printing.....

I was going to say - Lith printing.

But that's a rather different effect and may be more "grain" than you want.

In 5x7 it's not going to be easy and maybe not even possible to get visible grain in a 16x20 (from the negative, rather than by printing with lith or a texture screen or the like) with conventional materials.

I'd just suggest shooting Delta 3200 in 120, with a roll film back on a 4x5 camera if you must use a view camera, but that may not be what you're looking for. But if I wanted more visible grain from a camera with movements, that's what I'd do, because I have the 4x5 and roll film back. If I didn't - shit or tilt/shift lens on a 35mm and use Delta 3200 or TMZ and you should get all the grain you want.

I understand liking the look. I like fairly grainy 35mm for some things, but for those images I shoot 35mm (and TMZ) and use the view camera when I want grainless appearance and smooth tonality.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Your post goes against what? Against the grain? Look out... you may get "ripped" a new one. :D

[Roger Cole]

The suggestion you got on APUG to try Fomapan 400 in Rodinal might be worthwhile. I've shot a few sheets of Foma 400 in 4x5. Tonality looks good, and grain is still invisible at 11x14, but if you developed it in Rodinal or, maybe better yet, Dektol or other print developer, you might get some visible grain. You'd certainly get more than with Tri-X in X-tol. For that matter, Tri-X in HC-110 will give you noticeably more grain than in Xtol, noticeable with a grain magnifier anyway, probably not in a 16x20 print from 5x7.

You could also just use a shorter lens and crop a lot when you print!

[jnantz]

try processing your film in caffenol c .. don't measure,
it is about 1/4 ( or 1/8 if your jar is small ) of cheap instant coffee
a baby food container ( 3oz? ) of washing soda +/- and 2/3 that much powdered vit c. ( 2oz ? )
add in a couple splashes of ansco 130 if you have it, stock ... dektol is similar so it might work to .. straight/stock.

stand develop your film for about 25-30mins.
your film will print beautifully and scan beautifully
and you will have nice grain ...

[Noah A]

I always loved Tri-X in Rodinal when I shot 35mm and wanted a grainy look. The grain is very well-defined and sharp. It's a nice look with larger formats since the grain will add texture without getting out of control.

It's also a really easy developer to deal with, so I'd definitely suggest giving it a try with Tri-X or HP5.

[Emil Schildt]

I was going to say - Lith printing.

But that's a rather different effect and may be more "grain" than you want.

In 5x7 it's not going to be easy and maybe not even possible to get visible grain in a 16x20 (from the negative, rather than by printing with lith or a texture screen or the like) with conventional materials.

I'd just suggest shooting Delta 3200 in 120, with a roll film back on a 4x5 camera if you must use a view camera, but that may not be what you're looking for. But if I wanted more visible grain from a camera with movements, that's what I'd do, because I have the 4x5 and roll film back. If I didn't - shit or tilt/shift lens on a 35mm and use Delta 3200 or TMZ and you should get all the grain you want.

I understand liking the look. I like fairly grainy 35mm for some things, but for those images I shoot 35mm (and TMZ) and use the view camera when I want grainless appearance and smooth tonality.

I agree that these grains are different than the grains found in film... But I found two really heavy grained images - Stine can controll the amount of grain a lot...

:::::::

Back in the days I heard about something called "russian grain"... apparently you could get big grain if adding a small amount of fix in the developer...... Actually never tried that mt self, but it might be worth a test...

(I love grain too so I totally understand the OP's question)

[cosmicexplosion]

Fast film is grainy. Just use the right format to get the true grit you want, not that I know much but it seems simPlest.

I am totally interested in all those wired techniques of cofee and what not.
We could almost use a thread on alt dev

[Ari]

We could almost use a thread on alt dev

No, not almost...that's a great idea.

[jp]

Maybe it's a bit of texture you want rather than grain, in which case, an alt process print on textured paper would do. The ilford art mg300 sometimes appears to look like wet sandpaper too (very fine grained paper)

Caffenol-C can bring pretty big grain too.... Check this 4x5 efke50 film scan and closeup:
http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/img194.jpg
http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/img194c.jpg
Caffenol-C isn't suitable for 400 speed film, but there are variants that are made for it. Dektol would probably do something similar but with more contrast.

[jnantz]

Maybe it's a bit of texture you want rather than grain, in which case, an alt process print on textured paper would do. The ilford art mg300 sometimes appears to look like wet sandpaper too (very fine grained paper)

Caffenol-C can bring pretty big grain too.... Check this 4x5 efke50 film scan and closeup:
http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/img194.jpg
http://www.f64.nu/photo/tmp/lff/img194c.jpg
Caffenol-C isn't suitable for 400 speed film, but there are variants that are made for it. Dektol would probably do something similar but with more contrast.

i use the same caffenol c developer for everything iso 25, 50, 100, 200, 400 and even 800 ...
black/white and even color (c41 + e6 ) produces a b/w negative ...
and as a paper developer paired with spent ( black) ansco 130 and a water bath...

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

The O.P shoots 5x7 format. Cannot see the graphic grain effect he wants coming from Rodinal.
If some use it for 35mm,it is not going to be perceptible on 5x7.
Why not make a "distressed" negative and sandwich it for printing ?
With the added advantage of ,reversability.

[John Kasaian]

I've never tried it with large format, but using chemicals that are of different temperature sure ups the grain on roll film negatives.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

You could try pushing a 400 speed film to 3200+ and develop via water bath... After a little practice, you can get your contrast where you want it.

I have also heard of some people developing film for a normal time (i.e. ISO400 time temp) and then inserting the film into a over-diluted developer for the remainder of the "pushing".

I have personally never tried this, after all one of the reasons I shoot large format is for a reduction in grain. :rolleyes: :)

[Pawlowski6132]

Lith
Art 300
Kallitype

[Brian C. Miller]

You could try pushing a 400 speed film to 3200+ and develop via water bath... After a little practice, you can get your contrast where you want it.

+1 on using a printing technique for the effect Tom wants.

While this is noticeable in 35mm or maybe MF, there probably won't be anything significant for 5x7, and the scene will have nothing in the shadow areas at all. Seriously. What happens with Kodak 400 films is that they need a certain minimum exposure to get something on the film. At 3200 the exposure just falls off to nothing at the midpoint. You'd have to be photographing a high-key scene for it to be effective. You'd need Ilford Delta 3200 to see something on the low end, and that doesn't come in sheet sizes. I've seen a 6x9 shot enlarged to over three feet across, and the grain wasn't objectionable. I don't think that it would be especially noticeable from a 5x7 at that enlargement.