Wollensak 15" f/5.6 Raptar Telephoto

[Randy]

Me Lady just discovered this lens amongst some darkroom gear that was her late fathers. It's mounted on a Graflex lens board. I would like to play with it as a possible portrait lens for 5X7. I read someone had mounted theirs into an Alphax #4 shutter. Anyone have any experience with this lens? I would like to know if it will be worth the expense / trouble of locating a shutter, and if there are any other shutter options for it.

[E. von Hoegh]

It's not a very high value lens, so unless you can find the appropriate shutter cheaply and simply screw the cells into the shutter, the cost of machining the cells and calibrating the aperture would be far more than a shutter mounted version. Or, get a 5x7 Graflex.

[Mark Sampson]

Some of these were sold new in Alphax shutters- we had one in the lens cabinet at my former employer (complete w/original box).
I've never seen a barrel-mount one so I don't know if your lens could be easily shutter-mounted.

[jnantz]

hi randy

its a great lens ..
i have and use one on a speed graphic, and it is sharp as nails stopped down if you like that sort of thing.
wide open it has a nice look to it ...

i have never used it on anything bigger than 4x5 ( to see how big the circle is ) ... it might project something big ...
its 10" cousin is a great portrait length lens on a graflex/graphic camera ( again with FP shutters ) ...

have fun !
john

( the demolition image of the hotel avery, i have a 16x20 and you can read the numbers on the rooms ... it was taken from a half block away )

[Randy]

Thanks for the in-put and images John. Is yours the shuttered version, or barrel version? Apparently they came both ways. If shutter, what shutter is yours?
I read that it will cover 5X7 at infinity, but that may have been an opinion. Since this has a Graflex lensboard, pretty sure it was used on a Speed Graphic.

[jnantz]

hey randy

mine is a barrel ... on a speed graphic board ..
i've seen the ones in a shutter, usually an alphax
( one sold here or on apug in an alphax just the other day :) )
you could easily see how it covers at infinity by making a camera obscura
out of a cardboard box bigger than 5x7 ... attach your lens to the front,
and make a sliding focus screen with a sheet of waxed paper.
point the lens out the window
slide the focus screen to see the focus .. and measure the image size ...
the box doesn't need to be black or special, just big with one end cut off ...
( it doesn't need to be long either since it is a telephoto lens )

have fun !
john

[Randy]

Thanks John. For testing I usually just make a lensboard out of matte board and mount the lens on what ever camera I want to use it on. I just now held it inside the front standard of my 5X7 camera and looked through the corners of the groundglass (while focused at infinity) and it looks like it has plenty of coverage for 5X7. I'll probably go ahead and make a lensboard, mount it and give it a try in low light. If I like it I may make a front mounted shutter with a Packard shutter I have sitting on the shelf.

[Bill_1856]

It's a terrific lens, but HUGE! Easily covers 5x7. I have both versions, I think it takes a series X filter adapter. Only focuses to about 20' on a Graphic or Graflex due to bellows restriction. Much sharper with better contrast than the 360 mm Tele-Xenar.

[Shen45]

I fitted one directly from the original barrel into a #4 Alpha for a friend. A very capable lens.

[al olson]

Randy, I have one on my 8x10 Arkay Orbit (aka Calumet C-1). The lens covers the format with a slight bit of play to make minor adjustments. This lens is outstandingly sharp. I don't understand why so many downplay its quality.

Mine came mounted in an Alphax shutter that I assumed was a #5 because it is so large. However, the shutter has no markings that show the size and I have never observed a #4 so I could be wrong. You will enjoy this lens. It should be ideal for 5x7 with plenty of room for movements.

I should add that my Alphax shutter is the press type (no shutter cocking) and the fastest speed is 1/50.

[Randy]

Al, I just mounted mine on a lens board and put it on my 8X10 and it will not cover the format at infinity (I just look through the cut-out corners of the ground glass and can't see through the lens from the corners). Wonder if they made different versions. I have a 5X7 back that I plan on using it with.

How can you tell the different sizes of the Alphax shutters? I am watching a few on ebay but there is no size indicated, so I don't know what they are. I guess I could ask the seller for measurements.

[Kevin Crisp]

I've had two and use them often on 5X7. There is room for movement. Both I've had have been mounted in Alphax shutters, which are quite a decent vintage shutter and quite trouble-free. Alphax shutters are often available as bargains.

As others have commented, its performance is outstanding and I've never understood why they are seemingly so under appreciated. Great value. And being a true telephoto design it can be the answer for many people who want a long lens but don't have the 4X5 bellows for it.

I believe there is an Alphax shutter these will screw directly into as well

[E. von Hoegh]

I've had two and use them often on 5X7. There is room for movement. Both I've had have been mounted in Alphax shutters, which are quite a decent vintage shutter and quite trouble-free. Alphax shutters are often available as bargains.

As others have commented, its performance is outstanding and I've never understood why they are seemingly so under appreciated. Great value. And being a true telephoto design it can be the answer for many people who want a long lens but don't have the 4X5 bellows for it.

I believe there is an Alphax shutter these will screw directly into as well

Wollensak lenses in general seem to be under appreciated. I've had several of various vintages, they were all very good and most were excellent. I still use an Enlarging Velostigmat for 6x7.

[al olson]

Al, I just mounted mine on a lens board and put it on my 8X10 and it will not cover the format at infinity (I just look through the cut-out corners of the ground glass and can't see through the lens from the corners). Wonder if they made different versions. I have a 5X7 back that I plan on using it with.

Randy, you are right that there is some darkening in the corners. The first image below was focused at infinity and it shows a little darkening in the upper right corner.

http://www.photo-artiste.com/largeformatforum/8x10pagosapeak.jpg


The second image below (taken some years ago from my home in Virginia) was focused to a distance of about 150 feet from my deck. With a little experimentation today from my window, I find that the difference between the mountain ridge and my neighbor's house (approximately 150 feet away) in focus distance to the film plane is about 2 mm. Two out of 380 mm is about 1/2 of a percent.

http://www.photo-artiste.com/largeformatforum/8x10neighborhood.jpg

Using a small aperture and focusing at the hyperfocal distance should allow the entire 8x10 to be covered. Doesn't leave much room for movements, but I seldom print the entire negative anyway.



How can you tell the different sizes of the Alphax shutters? I am watching a few on ebay but there is no size indicated, so I don't know what they are. I guess I could ask the seller for measurements.

Can't help you there. Like I said, I thought my Alphax was a #5, but on examination there are no markings to indicate its size. This may be why the sizes are not being specified on ebay. The lens is huge and likewise the shutter is also large, but I have no idea how large a #4 would be in comparison.

[Leonard Robertson]

The chart on this page gives some dimensions for Alphax shutters: http://lensn2shutter.com/shutters.html
Ilex Acme shutters in the larger sizes have different fastest speed for the different sizes. A #4 Acme has a top speed of 1/150, while a #5 Acme only goes to 1/50. I don't know if that is true for Alphax shutters. Usually you can see the top speed in eBay pictures. I believe I only have one or two Alphax shutters, but I'll look at the top speed.

Len

[al olson]

If this is also the case with Alphax, the top speed of 1/50 suggests that my shutter is a #5.

The shutter prices in that article seem extremely high even in today's market.

[Randy]

Al, the chart indicates that the #4 shutter has a thread diameter of 62mm, which is the thread diameter of the lens (I measured it last night). So, looks like your's is a #4. I am looking for an Alphax or Betax #4. Otherwise, I am going to have to fashion my spare Packard shutter in front of the lens. Don't really want to do that, but I am anxious to play with it.

[al olson]

Randy, thanks for the information. I had to take a look, unscrewed the lens, and put the calipers to it. You're right about the thread diameter, I got a reading of about 61.41mm. If this is a #4, then you should expect that the Alphax #4 has a maximum shutter speed of 1/50. Do the Betax #4s go to faster shutter speeds?

I also have a 10" Raptar. Its shutter is a Grafax (made for Graflex by Wollensak), mounted on a Super Graphic board with a 1/200 maximum shutter speed. I am guessing that this is a #3, but would it be equivalent to an Alphax or a Betax?

[Kevin Crisp]

Betax shutters don't go faster than anybody. But since I don't think I've ever used a shutter speed faster than 1/30th in LF, no problem for me. They just seem to be very reliable and the self cocking is convenient.

[winterclock]

I got mine in barrel, it screws right in to my alphax #4. The #4 only goes to 1/50th, if you can find one from a 12" normal lens the aperture scale will be correct.
If you do this watch out for the set screws in the lens barrel, there is one hiding under the aperture ring.

[Randy]

I finally mounted my 15" Walle Tele Raptar into a Betax #4 that had 210mm Velostigmat cells mounted.

So, the shutter is f/4.5 - f/64. The Raptar was f/5.6 - f/32. Any ideas on how to determine where aperture marks should be made for this lens?

Lens is 15" (381mm) but since it is a tele, infinity focus is at about 9.5" (241mm).
When I measure across the wide open aperture looking through the rear element, it measures 36mm. If I am doing this correctly - 381 / 36 = f/10.5 -or- 241 / 36 = f/6.6 ...?

Any ideas from the experts?

Also, I am not familiar with the cable release socket on these shutters. It looks like it has threads on both the inside and outside. What do I need to look for?

[Jon Shiu]

It takes a regular cable release. I would recommend calibrating your f stops at the focal plane with a meter as compared to another one of your lenses, as outlined in Steve Simmons book.

Jon

[Dan Fromm]

Randy, open the shutter's diaphragm as wide as it will go. If you can see the blades, stop, this procedure won't work.

If the blades can't be seen, slowly stop down until they're just visible. Then open until they just disappear. The aperture index will be at f/5.6 for the 250/5.6 Tele. It will be between two of the engraved apertures for the 210/4.5 cells that were in the shutter. f/8 for the 250 will be the same relative distance above the next higher engraved aperture as f/5.6 is above the next lower. And so on. The photometric method Jon recommended is much more problematic.

[Shen45]

Measure the iris in the barrel and close the Alphax to that same "hole" size. Mark that position on the Alphax/Betax and call it whatever f-stop is on the position of the barrel. Just repeat for the remaining apertures. You don't need the glass in either as the spacing of the barrel and the Alphax/Betax is the same.

[Randy]

Jon, thanks. I have the book and found the instructions (BTW, thanks for the lens/shutter :) )

Dan, the blades are visible when I open the aperture to f/4.5. When I go beyond f/4.5, they just barely disappear at the point the indicator stops...just barely. So you are saying that beyond f/4.5, when the blades just disapeer, that is f/5.6 for the 15" Raptar, correct? At that point, the aperture pointer is about 5mm before the indicated f/4.5. So, if I move the indicator to 5mm before the indicated f/5.6, that would be f/8, for this lens? And 5mm before the indicated f/8 would be f/11, and so on? Just want to make sure I understand your instructions.

Steve, I should have asked this question before I nearly destroyed the old aperture getting the lens cells out. Now I can't get the blades to move for measurements :(

[Randy]

It takes a regular cable release.

Jon

Jon, I have tried to screw a standard tapered cable release into this thing and it will not mount. The opening is visibly larger than the cable release and the inside is not tapered like the cable release socket on my modern Copal shutters that I have in front of me for comparrison. The threads inside do not appear to be striped or damaged either, so it seems that this shutter takes a different type of cable release than I am familiar with.

74675

Is there another "regular" cable release that I don't know about? As can be seen from the picture, it also has threads on the outside.

[Dan Fromm]

At that point, the aperture pointer is about 5mm before the indicated f/4.5. So, if I move the indicator to 5mm before the indicated f/5.6, that would be f/8, for this lens? And 5mm before the indicated f/8 would be f/11, and so on? Just want to make sure I understand your instructions

Sorry, I don't think that will work. I just took a look at a couple of Betax shutters on eBay. They all have non-linear aperture scales, i.e., the larger the number the shorter the distance between numbers. What I meant was, for example, that if f/5.6 fell midway between marked f/4.5 and f/5.6 (roughly a quarter stop below marked f/5.6), then f/8 would fall roughly 3/4 of the way between marked f/5.6 and marked f/8, and so on.

The snag in your situation is that you don't know how many stops below marked f/4.5 true f/5.6 is.

And, in fact, you don't know whether wide open is actually f/5.6. To check this, open the diaphragm as far as it will go, hold the lens at arm's length, front facing you, and hold a ruler across the front of the lens. Measure (guestimate, perhaps) the diameter of the entrance pupil. If the lens is actually at f/5.6, it should measure roughly 44.6 mm. Between 44 and 45 ...

Then do the same with the aperture indicator set to f/4.5 and f/5.6. Actual aperture will be 250/(diameter of entrance pupil). And then you'll know what the marked f stops really mean. Which is what you need to be able to use the lens.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

About the straight cable release socket. My Speed Graphic's body release is straight. A regular tapered cable release will work with it. Try one carefully and don't force anything.

[Jon Shiu]

Despite how the threads look, a common cable release does screw in. I have about 8 different cable releases and they all screw in and work fine on the Betax shutter.

Jon

Jon, I have tried to screw a standard tapered cable release into this thing and it will not mount. The opening is visibly larger than the cable release and the inside is not tapered like the cable release socket on my modern Copal shutters that I have in front of me for comparrison. The threads inside do not appear to be striped or damaged either, so it seems that this shutter takes a different type of cable release than I am familiar with.

74675

Is there another "regular" cable release that I don't know about? As can be seen from the picture, it also has threads on the outside.

[Randy]

Thanks Dan, will play with it and do some figuring.

Jon, I have tried to screw in 5 of my tapered cable release and they will not catch. The threads on the cable releases are only on the tapered part and are to small in diameter to contact with the inner threads of the shutter's socket.

Now, I found a recently acquired cable release that I have, and it will not work on my other lenses because the previous owner must have been careless and the entire tapered part looks like it has been broken off...but, the threads on this cable release extend beyond the taper, on up about 1/8" onto the non tapered part. That part will indeed screw into this Betax shutter. None of my other releases have threads beyond the tapered part.

I am thoroughly perplexed :l Anyway, I now have a cable release that will work on the shutter :)

[TheDeardorffGuy]

As has been stated a Alphax or betax 4 is a direct replacement for the iris mount. Sharpness? Mine has a sweet spot at f 11. I've seen and shot with others that were sharpest at f16. Reading here that it does 5x7 was something I never knew till I put it on my 5x7 Graflex SLR tonight. FAR OUT! Me now has the worlds heaviest SLR. I have one 5x7 bagmag. Its an AEROMAG. It says Fairchild but its made by Folmer and Schwing and the septums are 3/32 masonite and there are 16 of them in the mag. its one heavy sucker. Its now a tripod camera.



Me Lady just discovered this lens amongst some darkroom gear that was her late fathers. It's mounted on a Graflex lens board. I would like to play with it as a possible portrait lens for 5X7. I read someone had mounted theirs into an Alphax #4 shutter. Anyone have any experience with this lens? I would like to know if it will be worth the expense / trouble of locating a shutter, and if there are any other shutter options for it.

[Randy]

I am thinking I may have to just try Jon's suggestion and follow the instructions in Simmons book. I keep getting confused.

Dan, I held the lens out at arms length, front of the lens facing me. I held a ruler in contact with the front filter ring. The entrance pupil at wide open aperture is 58mm, not the 44mm - 45mm you suggested.

Now, you divided into 250mm, but this lens is a 15" telephoto (381mm) with an infinity focus of 9.5" (241mm). Wouldn't I divide 58 into one of those numbers to arrive at the widest aperture for the lens in this shutter? Can you explain the use of 250, and why is the entrance pupil I am getting so much larger than the 44mm - 45mm that you said I should be getting, at wide open?

At indicated f/5.6, the entrance pupil is 42mm, f/8 is 29mm, f/11 is 22mm, f/16 is 14mm, f/22 is 11mm, f/32 is 8mm

Also, I measured the opening of both old and new apertures at wide open without the lens cells installed. The old is 44mm, the new is 43mm.

BTW Dan, the aperture this lens came out of was also non linear...if that matters.

[Dan Fromm]

My error, Randy. I don't know why, but I thought -- wrongly -- that you have a 10 incher. Apologies for the mistake.

At full aperture, your 15 incher's entrance pupil should be 68 mm. The largest aperture your shutter will allow with it is 381/58 = f/6.5. Indicated f/5.6 is real f/9, indicated f/8 is real f/13. The marked f/stops are all roughly 1.25 stops larger than actual. Now you know how to read the Betax' aperture scale and can use the lens.

One final check. The lens' length in the Betax, edge of front barrel to edge of rear barrel, should be the same as it is in the "original aperture." If not, focal length won't be 15" and image quality won't be as expected.

[Randy]

Thanks a bunch Dan. I am anxious to play with it.
I did measure the length of the lens in both old and new mountings and as best as I could tell, it is the same length. I will try to get a more accurate reading this afternoon.

[Kevin Crisp]

Some of the self-cocking shutters and even some manually cocking older shutters like the Acmes require a shutter release that sticks out a bit further than is common on many modern cable releases. Only some of mine work on certain shutters, I put a little red paint on the end of the plunger so I know to throw one of those in the bag when I am using a shutter that requires the longer extension. The difference in length of the plunger at full extension from the cable release is not much from one that works to one that doesn't, you just have to try them and see.

[Carsten Wolff]

Late reply, sorry.
The 15" f5.6 Wollensak-Teles were mostly made for the F-8 5x7" Aerial Reconnaissance Cameras which were in use from 1929/30 onwards (also came in 240mm Xenar versions) and were the most common WWII aerial camera. These lenses are the black-barrel/external-thread-on-the-front-cell versions. After being amazed by the quality of my first version - an early uncoated mil.spec. lens - I now have a late, brushed chrome, coated version (with a lovely, matching Wollensak cap) which I just screwed into a #4 Alphax shutter. Here is a lith scan of an original face, which you're welcome to print out and stick on your Betax shutter if it fits. http://www.flickr.com/photos/37082363@N08/7361505912/
I've quickly measured the barrel iris and also my Alphax aperture diameters to confirm for you: f5.6 = 42mm; f8 =30mm; f11=21mm; f16=14mm; f22=10mm f32=6mm; f45=3mm.

I agree with Kevin. You need a standard, but long-throw cable-release with a fairly solid tip. Out of seven or so releases I had, about half worked, so I just got rid of the flimsy ones, since I have a number of Alphax/Betax shuttered lenses.

PS: I'd be happy to get a bulk order going with SK Grimes to make a decent filter adapter ring for the odd 3.057"?? or 78.5mm?? of that lens (about its only drawback) as my Lee clamp arrangement is less than elegant. Optically, logic would dictate getting an 86mm step-up ring made, but there is plenty of image circle for 5x7" and I'd love to have it barrel-flush, so I'd choose a slim 77mm reduction, if that is technically feasible instead, unless anyone else has a better idea (?).

Lastly, I would like to temper E. von Hoegh's comment "not a high value lens" by stating that IMO it may not be a high price lens, but it is actually tremendous value:); optically it seems to compare with e.g. the 14" Commercial Ektar and that is a great lens. -So, the 15"f5.6 is to me another sleeper, like so many Wollensaks.

[E. von Hoegh]

Late reply, sorry.
The 15" f5.6 Wollensak-Teles were mostly made for the F-8 5x7" Aerial Reconnaissance Cameras which were in use from 1929/30 onwards (also came in 240mm Xenar versions) and were the most common WWII aerial camera. These lenses are the black-barrel/external-thread-on-the-front-cell versions. After being amazed by the quality of my first version - an early uncoated mil.spec. lens - I now have a late, brushed chrome, coated version (with a lovely, matching Wollensak cap) which I just screwed into a #4 Alphax shutter. Here is a lith scan of an original face, which you're welcome to print out and stick on your Betax shutter if it fits. http://www.flickr.com/photos/37082363@N08/7361505912/
I've quickly measured the barrel iris and also my Alphax aperture diameters to confirm for you: f5.6 = 42mm; f8 =30mm; f11=21mm; f16=14mm; f22=10mm f32=6mm; f45=3mm.

I agree with Kevin. You need a standard, but long-throw cable-release with a fairly solid tip. Out of seven or so releases I had, about half worked, so I just got rid of the flimsy ones, since I have a number of Alphax/Betax shuttered lenses.

PS: I'd be happy to get a bulk order going with SK Grimes to make a decent filter adapter ring for the odd 3.057"?? or 78.5mm?? of that lens (about its only drawback) as my Lee clamp arrangement is less than elegant. Optically, logic would dictate getting an 86mm step-up ring made, but there is plenty of image circle for 5x7" and I'd love to have it barrel-flush, so I'd choose a slim 77mm reduction, if that is technically feasible instead, unless anyone else has a better idea (?).

Lastly, I would like to temper E. von Hoegh's comment "not a high value lens" by stating that IMO it may not be a high price lens, but it is actually tremendous value:); optically it seems to compare with e.g. the 14" Commercial Ektar and that is a great lens. -So, the 15"f5.6 is to me another sleeper, like so many Wollensaks.

You're right. A careless choice of wording on my part.

[Bill_1856]

For anyone using this lens on a Graflex, there is a version with the aperture numbers visible at the front of the lens (also one for the 10" Tele).

[Randy]

Carsten, thanks so much for the information. I have printed out the scale you provided in the link, after sizing it in photoshop. Looks like it will work just right.
My lens is the black version, but the lens looks to be coated (the reflection has a pinkish hue).

As for the cable releases, none of my "standard" releases, with the tapered threaded ends, will screw into this Betax shutter. On all of my releases (with the exception of the one I mentioned earlier), the threads are only on the tapered part of the tip. Only one of my releases has threads that go beyond the tapered part of the tip, and continue onto the cylindrical part of the tip, for a few mm's. The diameter of the tapered part on all of my releases is to small to screw into my shutter. Only that one with the threads extending beyond the taper, will work. Fortunately, this one has a nice long throw and is sturdy.

[Carsten Wolff]

Yes, being a "Raptar" means it would be coated; probably also has the little (w) = "wocoated" symbol on the face.
The older ones were merely called Wollensak Tele I think (or perhaps Velostigmat-Tele); some later ones were also called Tele-Optar AFAIK. It does seem though your particular shutter has a slightly larger than usual diameter indeed. I can only suggest (in case you don't find a matching cable-release or adapter) to make an adapter (aluminum foil, or epoxy putty) or get one machined (?) or just make a pneumatic plunger perhaps. All the best.

[Dan Fromm]

Carsten, Optar is a Graflex Inc. trade name. Graflex bought lenses in, had them engraved (by the manufacturer) with Graflex' names. Most Optars were made by Wollensak.