Those little yellow boxes

[John Kasaian]

Did anyone else see the article in Black and White magazine(the British one) about Kodak? It is in the current edition on Border's racks in the U.S. I was just leafing through it---its an expensive import and I'm still paying off the Christmas American Express, soooo....---the gist of it being that the Great Yellow Father in Rochester is no longer investing in R&D in film, which we already know, and will be manufacturing film for other private labels. It also reports that Kodak has taken the silver out of Tri-X. Huh? Interestingly enough, if true, there are some exciting/ominous possibilities. Imagine the possibilities of getting T-max-oid or Plus X-oid Arista or Ultrafine or J and C Classic? On the other hand(the one behind the back, holding the dirk) Kodak deciding to only make black and white film from that C-41 compatible bull pucky. What are your thoughts?

[darter]

"On the other hand(the one behind the back, holding the dirk) Kodak deciding to only make black and white film from that C-41 compatible bull pucky."

I ran this sentence through Altavista's translation program into Spanish, and then ran it back again into English. This was the result:

"In the other hand(the one behind the buttock, carrying out dirk) Kodak that decides to only make the black and white film of that one compatible bull C-41 pucky."

I think I understand it now.

[John D Gerndt]

Shoot first, make prints later, film may be gone tomorrow.

Big Yellow Brother will do what it must to make loads of money and nothing else. Have you tried to buy a vinyl record lately? (By the way, good vinyl records still sound better than digital recordings, but who really cares?) Film may end the same way. Phillips and Sony just bought up the record presses and destroyed them. There is no one company that stands to gain as Sony and Phillips did in that digital conversion so I give it another twenty years. The big guys have to sell their stuff to someone who will squeeze the rest of the life out of it and then we will be left with nothing but files we may or may not be able to interpret come mid century. Aren’t I a cheerful guy?

Cheers indeed!

[tim atherton]

Not sure about the silver stuff - I think there's a lot of hocus pocus about silver in films anway...

As for

"Great Yellow Father in Rochester is no longer investing in R&D in film"

I believe Kodak recnetly announced that it was no longer investing in R&D in CONSUMER films (of course it may well have stopped R&D in pro B&W films years ago, so they wouldn't announce that anyway - who knows!). But they did specify "consumer" film

[Frank Petronio]

Living in Rochester, the rumour is that Kodak has thousands of film improvements and decades of research waiting in the "vault" for the right marketing opportunity. That would be whenever Fuji or a competitor introduces a better film than Kodak makes - until then, why release an improvement when Kodak already dominates the B&W film market?

Kodak is still a leading producer of patents and R&D - but with such a small market (large format B&W film) I doubt that they will make any more significant improvements.

[Ralph Barker]

Having switched to Ilford B&W films (and Fuji for color) a few years ago, I no longer worry about when Kodak will discontinue particular products, John. You should try it. It's very liberating. ;-)

It seems to me that Kodak is driven by what the financial folks in management think Wall Street wants to hear. Certainly, it is no longer the pre-eminent photographic R&D house that it once was. Exactly when that took place is subject to debate.

[jnantz]

heyjohn

i have a shelf full of film and when i run out - won't be buying any more of that yellow stuff ... doesn't matter to me if they stop production ... i'll be buying film from j&c and photowarehouse, until they stop selling, and then i'll be coating dry plates from emulsion i make myself, until i can't get the ingredients anymore and then i guess i'll learn how to draw using my enlarger projecting an image onto paper ... should keep me busy :)

btw john g. - you can still buy laquer plates ( blanks ) from transco in elizabeth new jersey, and a recordio on FEEbay .. to cut your own vinyl :) i had a recordophone (like a recordio but 33rpm instead of 78) that i bought at a junque store and re-tubed. got some plates from transco and did the lo-fi for a while. nothing like recording music on a record player :)

"hiss-pop"

[John Kasaian]

jnanian,

Recordophone? I've got one of those somewhere. Didn't they take those yellow discs and they played from the inside out instead of starting at the edge of the disc? How cool is that? I've got my stash of 9-1/2" and 5" aerial film in mom's freezer and thanks to ebay, a passel of glass plate holders for the 5x7, so I've got my own photographic version of the "Ruby Ridge" thing if need be;-)

Ralph,

I shoot a lot of Ilford-oid and Forte, as well as Tmax for night photography and Aerographic for aerials, so Kodak's well being is of interest, at least to me. Besides, I used to fly a Piper Cub so I'm inordinately fond of that particular shade of yellow.

Frank and Tim,

Interesting notion. I hope somewhere in Rochester there is a "Holy of Holies" unknown to the corporate "Suits" where lab coated sentries are prepared to lay down thier lives to keep the Eastman family jewels preserved for the LF posterity.

John,

Get a recordophone man!

Phil,

I always knew there was a reason why I liked spaniards!

[james mickelson]

Don Quixote lives. When is beating up on the so-called "big yellow father", which is like fighting the wind, going to cease? Do any of you really think the rest of us care? This parrying has gone on since I started in photography and yet large format film is still here and Kodak still makes it. Yes someday they will cease to manufacture it but someday we will die too. Until then, just shoot film and make good images. And quit thrusting your verbal swords at the wind.

[David F. Stein]

The real threshold for 35mm color negative film will be passed when motion picture films are no longer shot in REAL FILM-which is conceivable. We forget that many advances in B&W emulsions were driven by the quest for better motion picture films in the days when films were shot in B&W. I was watching a film in the theater the other day and one of the last credits was "FILMED ON EASTMAN KODAK FILM." I take that as a credit that really stands for a genuine desire for quality; in translating the world (or movie sound stage) into the magic of cinema. The target audience for the T-Max films (advertising and commercial photographers shooting 35mm or 120 "need or want only black and white" assignments) is largely moving on to digital, I expect. The commercial and advertising photographers drive (or drove) 120 film (and corresponding 4x5) emulsions in the same way. Scientific? Medical? What are the real drivers of emulsion technology today-certainly not fine art photographers or hobbyists. THANKS.

[Eric_3793]

Vinyl as an audio medium and analog recording never really died. In fact it is more popular than ever with fans of alternative music. More and more audiophiles buy vinyl that is pressed overseas as well as in the united states by grassroots labels and will continue to do so as long as there is a niche group that appreciates the difference. But vinyl/analog recordings are no longer part of the mainstream recording industries bread and butter and can't be justified by their cost/profit ratio. It's kind of like large format photography in that it's not really relevant to the general populace anymore, and probably never will be again. But then has quality ever been marketable to the mass public?? Even buying CD's in a store will soon be obsolete as we are forced to the ever diminishing qualities of compressed Mp3s available online for instant purchase song by song...

Does the general public that can't/doesn't appreciate the difference but wants instant gratification really care? Furthermore, do you think the industries that stand to benefit really care about us if quality suffers so long as their cost/profit ratio decreases?? And lastly, should we as large format photographers continue to have such a naive outlook towards a company that is viable after so many mistakes only because they can turn a profit from the general populace?

Kodak recently invested in a new film facility and I suspect that this means they are committed to making black and white film for at least the next decade or so. I doubt they will make a profit off of this and I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually drop film within most of our lifetimes.

That said, perhaps it is better to support a smaller company with less overhead that is dedicated to what they do... I wish I had a better answer...

[Tom Westbrook]

I think they will spin off the film business at the point where profitability is no longer likely. Seems to be the usual thing companies are doing with operations that are dragging down the bottom line. I think we might all end up in workshops learning how to coat our own glass plates, but that's not going to happen this decade, I don't think. Maybe the new business would re-introduce some of the discontinued emulsions (I know, I'm dreaming).

As for no silver in Tri-X, that's just silly. Unless they have evidence of that, it's just plain bad journalism to allow it in print. Not that I'm a huge Kodak fan.

[evan clarke]

Kodak buys up machinery and destroys it also. My brother-in-law worked for Ansco/GAF/Anitech/Intl. Paper and the company was finally was bought by Kodak. The coating machines which were highly developed and capable of coating photo film were destroyed..Evan

[jantman]

Have any of you read Fine Art Photo Supply's January newsletter?

"Also, regarding Kodak… (I know I’ll get in trouble for this, but I’m servicing a market I have a responsibility to – yes?). Kodak has a long history of having a mega-giant corporation mentality. For 50 or so years, they have been primarily interested in growth, overall size, and how Wall Street regarded their direction."

"Where am I going with all this? Kodak’s emphasis, market-wise, has always been where they can make the most money in the shortest possible time. – “keep Wall Street happy”. I don’t know what they are likely to do in the near future, but I’ll offer this suggestion. If you are a fine art black and white (or color) photographer, and your primary source of film and chemistry are those manufactured by Eastman Kodak, develop a workable alternative. Develop a workable alternative before you absolutely have to, because in the (near?) future, you may have to."

Interesting. And Ultrafine is looking better and better, not to mention the Ilford Pan F+ that I love in rollfilm.

[tim atherton]

Kodak just announced they are getting out of reloadable 35mm film cameras for most of the world (basically except "emerging markets" - India, etc) and also out of APS cameras. They also say consumer film has dropped off 24% or so over the last couple of quarters

[Ron Bose]

I can't help but think that this will become a self-fulfilling proficy ...

The more we are told (by the photo press and hinted at by Kodak) that there's no life in film, the more Joe Public will say "I'd better get a Digital Camera, film's gonna be history".

I wonder what would happen if those of us who are serious about photography (I include everybody on forums such as this), were to establish ourselves as a definable group of consumers. Make our voices heard. Then the quarterly driven brokers and analysts might realise that these people make a lively market for film products.

Recently, the editor of "Photography Magazine" a British mag, guessed that film will be around for a good five-years yet. And in response to their editorial balance between digital and film, he said that they focus on new products, and the new stuff is mostly digital.

I can't help but think that comments such as these, along with Kodak's announcement, unduly influence Joe Public. Afterall, what does Kodak's statement really mean ? It's been a good few decades since Kodak offered a praise-worthy film camera or lens, hasn't it ? So what was the purpose of the statement ? Apart from telling analysts what they want to hear and push up their stock price.

Digital is also a 'capital intensive' business, new cameras being introduced on a monthly basis, a new range of lenses to take account of smaller sensor sizes - hello !! Talk about arses and elbows !! And BTW what's wrong with all the great glass we already own !!

Film is more of a consumables business and therefore more sustainable - a good business model. One reason why Sony realised that it had to get into the music making/publishing business. People buy 'music' more often than they buy walkmans or stereo systems. If you can get a slice of the stuff that people put 'in' their music 'players' you'll always make money ...

Anyways, we need to remind manufacturers that we (film enthusiasts) are still here, alive and kicking. We need more editorials praising film, the fact that there are large numbers of hugely enthusiastic users out there, and that film manufacturers can be prosperous companies servicing us !

I think this may qualify as a rant, so my apologies. But my point is, we can let film die if we let it, or we can do something about it and keep it alive by showing all how viable it still is as a marketable product.

[John D Gerndt]

Ron Bose,

You speak true!

I have only seen one article about the upcoming demise of digital. Those files do not continue to exist in perpetual perfection! They degrade and worse than that who can say if they will be able to be interpreted in decades to come?

On a personal note, I have noticed that people who shoot digital don’t often get around to printing anything. All that money they were going to save on film seems to extend to all processing costs. Who has seen a paper copy of a digital family album? What are they going to pass around to show the grandkids?

Back to business, Magazines are mostly about selling stuff and while I agree that film is a good product to sell and sell I am not so sure about the profit margin or growth. We all know about the life expectancy of digital anythings...

I would like to think that we who love sheet film would constitute a large enough market that sheet film will be made for many years to come, but I am unsure of this. Mike and Paula of AZO fame have made a stand and it is not too far fetched that our loose organization might also make one for sheet film. Let us hope that we can tighten up in time to assure that this fine pursuit of beauty does not disappear from the face of the Earth.

[John Kasaian]

Heres a before dinner Chardonnay induced thought: Since Kodak seems quite capable of letting it's loyal employees go, why don't they parcel off sheet film into a seperate ex-employee owned and managed entity? There are precedents for that sort of thing. Any thoughts?

As far as presenting a unified film based front to the powers that be, Micheal and Paula certainly have taken a stand, and to that I'll add Per Volquarz(sp?) for including companies like Durst USA in his free workshops(which I hope to be able to attend some day), publisher Steve Simmons for going to bat with Kodak over 5x7 Tri-X, andTillman Crane's Mammoth Photography Workshop, which undoubtedly stirred interest in ULF and the marketing of the film sizes those big honkin' cameras use.

BTW, Do you think any Kodak "Suits" monitor forums such as this?

Cheers!