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Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 12:19
I've come to terms with the fact that I only use my Deardorff V8 for portraits, and almost always in "the studio". I've also come to terms with the fact that, as beautiful as the 'dorff, is, it's just not as stable at full extension as I'd like, and since I almost always use it more or less extended, maybe it's not the best camera for me? I'm not really interested in a Studio camera, so that leaves, what? A monorail, or a Calumet C1? DO any of the 8x10 monorails have 6x6 lens boards? Can anyone recommend an 8x10 monorail especially well suited to portrait work?

jcoldslabs
17-Apr-2012, 13:49
Jay,

I can't speak to the monorail question, but my C-1 is a great camera for portraits. It's rock solid at full extension, too. The worst thing about the camera is the fact that it is rear focusing only. With shorter lenses this means leaning over the protruding rear rail to focus. But when more fully extended, as it would be for portraits or close-up work, this flaw is mitigated. It's got six inch lens boards to boot. And if you're not hoofing the camera around anywhere but indoors the weight isn't an issue, either.

Added bonus: the C-1 isn't all that expensive.

(Sorry if this doesn't directly address your question.)

Jonathan

Frank Petronio
17-Apr-2012, 14:04
A heavy tripod makes it much easier to work faster, you don't worry about bumping something out of position, you can slide the holders in faster without worrying, etc. A bargain Majestic is hard to beat if you don't need to carry it far.

The C1 is certainly a good serviceable camera but I would buy based on condition, a lot of the $500-ish C1s, Cambos, Toyos are great except for their bellows. Try to find one with a nice bellows first and foremost, since a replacement will be at least $250.

Sometimes you see 8x10 Sinar Ps go inexpensively and while they are great cameras, again the bellows matters most. Also the gearing on the more complex cameras can be fouled and why they are going for cheap. It would be hard to damage a C1 and the simple Cambos/Toyos are almost as tough.

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 14:14
Thanks, guys. I didn't know that about the C1 rear focus. I don't think that would be a big issue for me, but it's worth knowing. I would definitely consider a C1, and I'll keep your admonition about bellows condition in mind, Frank. I Use my 'dorff with a big Majestic tripod, so I don't think that's an issue for me.

Jonathan, what's the max extension of the C1? If I remember correctly, it's something like 34"? The 6" lens board is good to know, too. I couldn't mount my Verito on a smaller one, I don't think.

Any monorail contenders?

jcoldslabs
17-Apr-2012, 14:33
Jay,

My camera is not set up at the moment so I can't measure for you, but I remember 32" - 34" being about right for max. extension. I have read that Deardorff 6" lens boards are interchangeable with C-1 6" lens boards. (I'd verify this first, though.) If true there would be no remounting of lenses required in your case.

I don't want to sound like a C-1 advocate, though. I enjoy mine, but I always default to the 2D for outdoor work. The 2D is more rickety and has fewer movements, but dragging the C-1 out of its case is twice the hassle of grabbing the 2D and setting it up. For your needs this would be less of an issue.

Lastly, while my C-1 is in very good condition (a later black aluminum model with replacement bellows) I have read that since many of the movements are friction based and not geared you need to be careful about joint wear on well-used models. No sense in having front tilt if you can't lock it down securely!

Jonathan


EDIT: I must say that since I got my Century 10A studio camera with its stand earlier in the year I absolutely love having a big camera always at the ready on a wheeled stand. The poor C-1 is not seeing its share of daylight these days as a result.

Carl J
17-Apr-2012, 14:37
Hi Jay,

I'm a newbie here and just getting started in 8x10 and have a Cambo 810N, solid, non-geared. Simple like Frank says. Max bellows extension is 27" and change with the front standard reversed. I was just looking at this last night with a new-to-me Nikkor 480mm. I'd keep that in mind with the Cambo's (I don't know if the geared SCX or Legend's have any more extension). I think the Toyo's have more extension but the Cambo's are not that hard to find, take a 6x6 lensboard (more or less), and pretty reasonable price-wise. I think the fact that there is very little that could be considered 'elegant' (bulky U-Frames) about their design makes them somewhat less desirable in the eyes of many. Kind of grows on you, though. ;) With the geared models most people seem to just want to get rid of them because of the weight but that wouldn't be a factor in the studio. Keep in mind, though, that the geared models use a proprietary rail and can sometimes be hard to find if you need an extension.

Carl

Tony Karnezis
17-Apr-2012, 14:40
Which Verito, Jay? My 18" wouldn't fit on a 6x6 KMV board without complex machining because of the way the board is designed and the way it mates with the camera. A completely flat 6x6 board would have a greater useable diameter for accepting a large lens. Something to keep in mind.

I like my Sinar P, but that has a 5.5" board. The Toyo monorail has 6x6 (158mm) boards, but I haven't used it.

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 14:55
Jonathan, the C1 seems like it might be a very real option. A studio camera would be, too, but I have to haul my equipment to the studio, and the 10A is anything but portable.

Carl, thanks for the info on the Cambo. I briefly used a 4x5 version, so I have an idea of its design. I think I need 32" extension at a minimum, and more would be better. I bet there's a way to add extension.

Tony, I have the 14-1/2" Verito, and it mounts on my 6" 'dorff board, but barely. That's too bad about the Sinar P boards -- I've been looking at that camera as a potential option.

Carl J
17-Apr-2012, 15:29
re. Cambo: Could always use a second 4x5 standard and bellows. I just picked up a 4x5 SCII something-or-other over the weekend and have a 1x1" piece of extruded aluminum to cut to length for a DIY SC-style long rail. None of these options would be new to you and Cambo's are inexpensive to buy. I, too, think that C1 option sounds pretty attractive, though. :)

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 15:46
Tony, I really like the looks of the Sinar P. I think I'd be willing to trade my V8 for one. Happen to know the max extension?

cdholden
17-Apr-2012, 16:30
Jay,
The Sinar can be as long as you want. If the stock bellows isn't long enough, get an accessory standard and add another bellows.
I also have the 14.5" Verito. S.K. Grimes made a thinner flange to fit this lens to a Sinar board. This Verito uses the same flange as a #4 Studio shutter.

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 17:02
Jay,
The Sinar can be as long as you want. If the stock bellows isn't long enough, get an accessory standard and add another bellows.
I also have the 14.5" Verito. S.K. Grimes made a thinner flange to fit this lens to a Sinar board. This Verito uses the same flange as a #4 Studio shutter.

Good to know! Thanks! There's a Sinar P on ebay right now, but it's bad timing, as I'm leaving for Russia in a week. I think when I return I'll sell the V8 and look for a Sinar P. It just looks like a very solid outfit.

cdholden
17-Apr-2012, 17:20
Also consider an F2 or Norma if you want less weight.
They also offer less precision in movement.

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 17:28
I would consider either of those options, but I have to admit I'm drawn to the precision of the P, and weight isn't a serious issue.

If anyone has one of these outfits and would be interested in trading for a V8, let me know. I'm open to other options, as well (like a C1).

jcoldslabs
17-Apr-2012, 17:34
Jay,

I'd trade you my C-1 for your V8, but I don't think I can come up with the supplemental cash to balance the equation! Too bad you're not a smidge closer to PDX because I'd be happy to let you borrow the C-1 for a test run.

Good luck. I've coveted a Sinar for years but the equipment I have suits me well enough.

Jonathan

Frank Petronio
17-Apr-2012, 17:37
A C1 is an old reliable 4x4 truck.

A Sinar P is a middle-aged Mercedes....

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 17:55
Frank, when you put it that way, I think I'm more of a middle aged Mercedes guy than a 4x4 truck guy.

Jonathan, that's a very generous offer. I think I would prefer a Sinar P, or similar, but let me think it over. I go to Russia for three weeks then back here to Alaska for three more, and I won't be back home until June, so there's no rush on my end.

jcoldslabs
17-Apr-2012, 17:57
No rush here, either. Are the Russia & Alaska trips for business or pleasure? Either way, enjoy.

Jonathan

Tony Karnezis
17-Apr-2012, 18:00
Jay,
The Sinar can be as long as you want. If the stock bellows isn't long enough, get an accessory standard and add another bellows.
I also have the 14.5" Verito. S.K. Grimes made a thinner flange to fit this lens to a Sinar board. This Verito uses the same flange as a #4 Studio shutter.

What Chris said. The sky's the limit for extension. If you like, I can measure the max extension I get with my standard bellows.

I was toying with trying the 14.5" Verito. (I need another lens like a hole in the head.) It's good to know it can fit on a Sinar board.


A C1 is an old reliable 4x4 truck.

A Sinar P is a middle-aged Mercedes....

The Sinar is like a 1980s Mercedes S class: solid, heavy and smooth.

Frank Petronio
17-Apr-2012, 18:02
You might also keep on the look out for older Arca-Swiss and Linhof Kardan 8x10s, as they have larger (metal of course) lensboards than the Sinar and imho, better build quality. The Linhofs especially, they are very heavy and robust and just lovely but they often go for a song because they are such beasts! eBay.de has deals sometimes.

Also the Sinar Norma, while not geared, is a very solid camera. Again, I'd buy based on price and bellows.

Plaubel and Fatif also made good monorails.... Problem with them is finding the parts, they are rare especially in the USA.

The geared cameras are nice until something jams, all things considered I would rather get a clean non-geared camera myself.

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 18:14
Alaska is work (I'm here now), and Russia is pleasure. I'm agonizing over which camera to take. If I had your Mamiya 7, I wouldn't have to think at all, but the RB67 is a different beast. I was considering a Fiji 6x9, but I think I stalled too long now.

Jay DeFehr
17-Apr-2012, 18:25
Frank,

Thanks for the good advice. I've seen one of those Linhof Color Kardans, and they are indeed beautiful. The one I saw didn't have much extension, but I suppose that is variable. I'll keep the geared v non-geared issues in mind, too -- makes sense. Those Sinars look very well made, though. I'm sure they're more susceptible to jamming if they're taken out of the studio than if they stay indoors, but your point is good.

cdholden
17-Apr-2012, 18:33
What Chris said. The sky's the limit for extension. If you like, I can measure the max extension I get with my standard bellows.

I think the 8x10 non-metered back I had was 26 or 28".
While I still need to cull the herd to make the best of space for a home office, I couldn't bring myself to sell the 5x7. Yes, it's a P.

Ari
17-Apr-2012, 18:52
A C1 is an old reliable 4x4 truck.

A Sinar P is a middle-aged Mercedes....

And a Toyo G is a 1978 Lincoln Continental.

Robert Jonathan
18-Apr-2012, 07:28
Sinar is nice, but buying them used can be a bit tricky.

The one that I got had a real tight rear standard, which I like. You could not push the movements with your hand, only with the knobs.

The front standard was different - it wasn't tight at all. I never tried to use a 360mm on there, but a loose tilt would make me nervous with heavy lenses.

The good thing is that you can always send these cameras in for repair/tweaking/refurbishing.

Jay DeFehr
18-Apr-2012, 08:36
Yes, it would be nice to put my hands on the camera before I commit. I told Julia what I was planning and she forbade it! She says the only thing to do is to buy whatever I think I want, and then, if I really prefer it to the V8, maybe I could sell it. I love that girl.

Struan Gray
18-Apr-2012, 11:44
If you want to use large lenses on a Sinar 8x10 don't forget the trick of using a 5x7 standard and a lensboard sized to fit the bigger opening.

Sinar sold an 8x10 to 5x7 bellows and lensboards for this sort of rig, but they were expensive and still are when they come up used (once or twice a year on eBay.de). I'd bet one of the custom bellows makers could knock up a similar bellows for less, and there is at least one ebay seller from Switzerland who offers (offered at any rate) the extra-large lensboards at quite reasonable rates.

Jay DeFehr
18-Apr-2012, 13:29
Struan,

Thanks for that information. It seems the Sinar system is very modular, correct? Am I right in thinking the same rails work with all format standards, and between the P and F models? If that's true, it just about decides the issue, for me.

cdholden
18-Apr-2012, 13:32
Struan,

Thanks for that information. It seems the Sinar system is very modular, correct? Am I right in thinking the same rails work with all format standards, and between the P and F models? If that's true, it just about decides the issue, for me.

Between the Norma, F, and P... yes.
There was an Alpina series that has a different style rail, not compatible with these other 3.

Struan Gray
18-Apr-2012, 13:40
I *think* so, but I only have real experience with the Norma system. As far as I know, all Sinars use the same rail, except the budget Alpina/A1 model which had a dovetail rail. Even that used the same bellows, lensboard and accessory attachments.

One final thought: the Norma 5x7 format frame has a groove which runs all the way round the inside edge of the frame. The 5x7 back assembly and 5x7-4x5 reducing back have sliding locks which engage in this groove, in addition to the external Graflok-style slides. For really heavy lenses you could make an L-tab which engages in this groove once the lensboard is mounted, and locks the board in place more securely - you would engage the tabs from the rear with the bellows temporarily detached from the back of the standard.


Ah: I see cdholden beat me to it.

Basically, the Sinar system at current used prices is extremely versatile and useful. The existence of custom machine shops and far-eastern gadget makers means that a lot of the oddball kit that used to be a special order from Switzerland is now cheap-n-cheerful on eBay.

Robert Jonathan
18-Apr-2012, 13:49
Yeah, all the rails work together, even the silver and black!

The round rail system is the reason I got rid of the Sinar.

I HATE the round rail system, especially with long extensions.

Don't get me wrong, and don't get discouraged by my comments. It's ROCK SOLID with a 12 inch, or maybe up to 24 inches with extension rails or not, but if I need more, why should I have to buy more rail clamps for stability, and buy that stupid thing that goes on the tripod that holds two clamps, and then when you have a bunch of rails screwed together, it honestly gets kind of iffy and makes me nervous, and it's just plain stupid...

The standards are beautiful though. We all know that.

On the other hand, Horseman's extendable rail is so big and heavy you can beat someone to death with it, it extends to 700mm, and the rail clamp is geared, so you can reposition the whole rig at any time. A dream come true. :)

cdholden
18-Apr-2012, 14:05
On the other hand, Horseman's extendable rail is so big and heavy you can beat someone to death with it, it extends to 700mm, and the rail clamp is geared, so you can reposition the whole rig at any time. A dream come true. :)

Sinar has a geared rail clamp also, but I've only seen two. Either I have poor timing or they're not very plentiful... or both!

Jay DeFehr
18-Apr-2012, 14:11
Robert, are you saying the Sinar is not very stable at 36" of extension? That would be disappointing, and surprising. Surely there's a remedy?

Hermes07
18-Apr-2012, 14:24
Yeah, all the rails work together, even the silver and black!

The round rail system is the reason I got rid of the Sinar.

I HATE the round rail system, especially with long extensions.

Don't get me wrong, and don't get discouraged by my comments. It's ROCK SOLID with a 12 inch, or maybe up to 24 inches with extension rails or not, but if I need more, why should I have to buy more rail clamps for stability, and buy that stupid thing that goes on the tripod that holds two clamps, and then when you have a bunch of rails screwed together, it honestly gets kind of iffy and makes me nervous, and it's just plain stupid...

The standards are beautiful though. We all know that.

On the other hand, Horseman's extendable rail is so big and heavy you can beat someone to death with it, it extends to 700mm, and the rail clamp is geared, so you can reposition the whole rig at any time. A dream come true. :)


Not quite sure what you mean by this. Were you unhappy with the rigidity of the rail itself, or the rail clamp not taking the weight, or not being able to re-position the camera?

As for the last issue, you can easily mount the rail clamp to a geared tripod head like a Manfrotto 400 or a Majestic which are a lot more available than Sinar's version.

The rail clamp (I prefer the rubberised P2 style clamps) has never failed to take any punishment I've thrown at it.

As for the rail, I've used 18" extensions in series to get to rails of 3 metres plus. There definitely is some flex over such a large span and at a certain point you need to switch to using two tripods just because of the lever forces stressing and unbalancing the whole thing, but I've never found that to be the case at anything as short as 700mm - you can do that span with just two 18" rails.

Jay DeFehr
18-Apr-2012, 14:27
I'm sold on the Sinar system, and have a deal in the works. Thank you all for your valuable and much appreciated insights.

Robert Jonathan
18-Apr-2012, 14:31
As for the rail, I've used 18" extensions in series to get to rails of 3 metres plus. There definitely is some flex over such a large span and at a certain point you need to switch to using two tripods just because of the lever forces stressing and unbalancing the whole thing

That's my only complaint.

Otherwise, it's rock solid, and you can make long extensions work, but only with the addition of other accessories.

And you're right, there is a geared rail clamp, but it still gets in the way of the standards, unlike Arca/Horseman, where the rail slides into the clamp/sits on top of the clamp and doesn't interfere with the standards, instead of the clamp being *around* the rail and interfering.

cdholden
18-Apr-2012, 14:33
As for the rail, I've used 18" extensions in series to get to rails of 3 metres plus. There definitely is some flex over such a large span and at a certain point you need to switch to using two tripods just because of the lever forces stressing and unbalancing the whole thing, but I've never found that to be the case at anything as short as 700mm - you can do that span with just two 18" rails.

Have you used the extension rail that holds 2 rail clamps? I'm hoping to get one soon.

Hermes07
18-Apr-2012, 14:43
That's my only complaint.

Otherwise, it's rock solid, and you can make long extensions work, but only with the addition of other accessories.

Is there a monorail system that allows you to assemble 2-3m rails that are 100% rigid though? Sinar even sold 36" (or maybe 40", i forget) one-piece rails for use in scientific and defence applications. I have one and never bother using it as I can't see any benefit over using two of my 18" rails.

Even if you could get a 2 or 3 metre rail that was a solid as an iron bar, how would you go about working with a setup like this using just one tripod? Even at a metre, I prefer to use two tripods so I don't spend my shoot in a perpetual see-saw balancing act as I switch between lighter and heavier lenses, larger and smaller magnifications, e.t.c.

Hermes07
18-Apr-2012, 14:46
Have you used the extension rail that holds 2 rail clamps? I'm hoping to get one soon.

I haven't.

I have the saving grace of shooting in a studio on a flat floor. My Sinar setup actually "floats" on steel roller stands most of the time so adding an extra rail clamp is a piece of cake.

Struan Gray
19-Apr-2012, 00:37
Is there a monorail system that allows you to assemble 2-3m rails that are 100% rigid though?


Not at the diameters of camera rails. They simply are not stiff enough. I have seen weird contraptions with two or three parallel rails to increase the stiffness, but at some point you need to move to a better engineered solution.

There are rail systems for making optical systems without bolting everything down to a laser table. Linos make a nice one:

http://www.qioptiq-shop.com/en/Optomechanics/Rail-Systems/Rail-System-95/

There are any number of ways to add camera standards to such a rail, but the easiest is to get two or more rail clamps and mount a camera monorail on top of the big rail. The homebrew version would use an RSJ painted with Hammerite instead of a precision extrusion in aluminium.


Sinar rail clamps have a polymer collar which clamps onto the rail itself - they are not metal to metal. This means the rail does not get gouged by clamping, and allows the clamping force to be adjusted so that you can make small corrections to the position without the whole camera flopping about. The inevitable consequence of having that collar though is that the rail can rotate slightly in the rail clamp. With long rails (above 18") a single clamp no longer is stable enough for my tastes, although the vibrations do die down indoors out of the wind so you *could* get away with just one clamp for studio use.

The Sinar double rail clamp is a mad price for what it is. I got a Norma one for free along with my pan-tilt head, and it's just a letterbox rectangle of thick aluminum sheet with a tripod mount in the middle and two long slots for wing-head bolts at the ends. A competent machine shop could run one up in about fifteen minutes. If you have to have a commercial solution, Gitzo make a plate for mounting two cameras on one tripod which will do the job just as well as the Sinar version.

The point of the plate is not to increase the stiffness of the rail as such. It does do that, but is too flat to make an enormous difference. The benefit comes from having two rail clamps separated by 12" or so: you need a much larger torque to rotate the rail through a small angle compared to when it flexes in a single clamp. The double clamp dramatically reduces small angle rotations of the rail about the clamping point. The biggest downside is that it raises the camera's centre of gravity even higher above the tripod head - for this reason I prefer to have two support points rather than one tripod head and the double clamp.

Finally, you have to point the whole contraption at whatever you want to photograph. I really only work in the field, where I sometimes have 24" of rail. I put the tripod towards the front of the camera (about 1/4 of the length in from the end). With the pan-tilt head loosened off a bit I can quite effectively point the camera where I want while looking at the ground glass, and fine-tune with shifts and rise/fall when everything is locked down. I support the back end of the rail with one or more hiking poles, using the wrist straps to clamp them onto the rail. Most of the weight is borne by the tripod, the poles mostly dampen vibration.

A better way would be to use a bipod instead of the hiking poles. I've been looking at those nice small Benro tripods which let you take one leg off for monopod use. The remaining bipod is compact but stiff (and adjustable when setting up). If I used long rails a lot I would also seriously consider replacing the pan-tilt head with a two-side gimbal mount like the nature photographers use for their big teles. That would give more side-to-side stability. Such a tripod+bipod system would work well in the studio too, but most setups I have seen use a heavy duty studio stand and the double clamp - I assume because it is much easier to move about and align for different setups.

Jay DeFehr
19-Apr-2012, 08:58
Great post, Struan. I was thinking I could just get a length of aluminum channel (14" or so), drill a couple holes for mounting to my Majestic head platform, and a few more for a rail clamp at each end, and be done with it. Such a set up would only raise the rig by the thickness of the channel (I'm thinking 1/4" should be stiff enough), and should be more than stiff enough for my purposes, though it is interesting to see more sophisticated solutions, too. I think I'll end up with a studio stand, sooner or later, but the tripod/bipod solution seems very workable, even for fairly long extensions, provided the camera angle doesn't need to be changed often or quickly.

This thread has been very informative -- my sincere thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Leonard Robertson
19-Apr-2012, 10:42
This is a very interesting thread for me, as I'm thinking of sizing-up my 4X5 Norma to 8/X10, when finances permit. This 2000-2001 Sinar catalog http://www.kenleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf page 25 shows bellows and combinations for different formats. It shows 25" extension for regular 8X10 bellows, which can be increased to 35" by adding a 4X5 multipurpose standard and 4X5 bellows in front of the 8X10 bellows. For longer extension than 35", Sinar recommends a 5X7 multipurpose standard and bellows between the 4X5 and 8X10 bellows.

On Glenn Evans site http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm is a picture of an extra long 8X10 bellows. I saw a post on one of the LF forums where someone mentioned having a 40" Sinar 8X10 bellows he thought may have been custom made. I have no idea what it would cost to have a bellows this long made. The 4X5 intermediate standard and bellows aren't difficult to find or very expensive, so that would no doubt be cheaper, if that setup gives enough extension.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned another important reason for going with Sinar. The Sinar behind-lens shutter. Of course this shutter can be adapted to other cameras, but is plug and play on a Sinar. I don't have the special cable to close the shutter when the film holder is inserted, but I suspect for an 8X10 camera with long extension, this might be a really handy feature.

Len

cdholden
19-Apr-2012, 11:02
I don't believe anyone has mentioned another important reason for going with Sinar. The Sinar behind-lens shutter. Of course this shutter can be adapted to other cameras, but is plug and play on a Sinar. I don't have the special cable to close the shutter when the film holder is inserted, but I suspect for an 8X10 camera with long extension, this might be a really handy feature.

Len

I have the cable. It doesn't matter what format you're using. It makes using the shutter more convenient. Combine that with a universal iris clamp mounted on a Sinar board and using barrel lenses (even the ones missing a flange) are simple and fun to use.
My only complaint with the cable is that the adapter ends are made of plastic. The end that goes to the shutter isn't a big deal, but the one that connects to my rear carrier could easily be snapped off if I was to drop it when carrying it in the field (so I remove it in transit). For use in the studio, this probably isn't a concern.

Jay DeFehr
19-May-2012, 17:24
I've officially taken possession of my Sinar P kit, and it includes all kinds of nice little extras, like the Sinar Pan/Tilt head, the Sinar shutter, with cable release, a compendium lens shade, extra lens boards, 4x5 frames, an intermediate standard, lots of extension rail, and a nice polarizer and holder.

After some fidgeting, I managed to assemble the 4x5 kit with my Goerz 8-1/4" lens, and fit the pan/tilt head to my big Bogen tripod. To say this outfit is substantial is something of an understatement, but I threw the whole rig over my shoulder and trekked a couple blocks to an old brick apartment complex I like, and made a few exposures. The screen is bright, and the controls are very logical and ergonomic, and work very smoothly. I've never liked working under a dark cloth, so I think I'll try the reflex viewer, and see how I like that. The only thing that worries me is not being able to check focus with a loupe -- anyone use the reflex viewer?

Now I need a case to carry the outfit -- any suggestions?

Ari
19-May-2012, 19:16
Now I need a case to carry the outfit -- any suggestions?

Pelican 1620; great case, and cheap on the used market.
And it's got wheels!

Frank Petronio
19-May-2012, 20:07
It'd a pain to take that reflex on and off, but I never felt comfortable "only" focusing with the reflex (albeit I didn't try very hard because I thought it was impractically large and delicate -- so I never seriously considered using it.)

It will take a while to find your groove with the camera and how to best move it and use it. Take your time and give things a chance... maybe try the dark cloth again but figure out how to acclimate your eyes or something?

Jay DeFehr
19-May-2012, 21:11
Thanks, Ari -- I'll look for one.

Thanks, Frank. Since I plan to work mostly in the studio, the viewer is probably not very important -- I don't usually need a dark cloth in the studio. I'm curious because I've never used a reflex viewer for LF, and given the generally excellent quality of the Sinar stuff I've seen, I thought the viewer might be a practical option, despite my misgivings.

I'm looking forward to working with the camera, based on my brief introduction. I haven't even developed my initial exposures yet. Work can be such a distraction!

jcoldslabs
20-May-2012, 00:58
+1 on Pelican cases. I've got a 1610 rolling case for my Calumet C-1 and a second one with padded insert for all of my 4x5 gear. A little heavy, but rock solid, bulletproof and easy to use.

Enjoy the camera. Sounds like a great new set up.

Jonathan

Jay DeFehr
20-May-2012, 07:00
Thanks, Jonathan. I have a few Pelican cases, too. I have one I use for carrying lenses, and another that will accommodate a 4x5 kit, but I'd like to consolidate as much as I can into one case. I'm still thinking about the best way to pack the kit -- it's a real puzzle, with lots of pieces. The 1620 looks pretty good.

Frank Petronio
20-May-2012, 07:20
Don't overlook used Sinar cases. I use a blue 4x5 case and it holds all the holders, lenses, extras and is fairly light, strong, compact. The best part is leaving the camera assembled (leave the rail clamp on the tripod so it is like a quick release).

Also the Tenba Air and Lightware cases are bulletproof but expensive.

Jay DeFehr
20-May-2012, 08:10
Hi Frank,

I was thinking along those lines. I've seen a few Sinar cases, but they're all a little different, and I'm not sure which would best fit my kit, or how easy they are to modify. I'll look closer.

sully75
20-May-2012, 10:28
Not sure the advantages of Sinar over Toyo, but Toyo stuff seems a lot cheaper. You could get a Toyo 4x5 and use it as an extension for an 8x10 camera and have all the extension you'd ever want. Everything fits together really easy. I would make sure to find one with metal tilt and shift lock levers, mine were plastic and the Toyo plastic seems to break a lot. However from looking, most of the ones I see online have the metal levers...I imagine they ditched the plastic ones fairly early on.

Jay DeFehr
20-May-2012, 10:43
Not sure the advantages of Sinar over Toyo, but Toyo stuff seems a lot cheaper. You could get a Toyo 4x5 and use it as an extension for an 8x10 camera and have all the extension you'd ever want. Everything fits together really easy. I would make sure to find one with metal tilt and shift lock levers, mine were plastic and the Toyo plastic seems to break a lot. However from looking, most of the ones I see online have the metal levers...I imagine they ditched the plastic ones fairly early on.

I saw an 8x10 Toyo, metal flatbed camera in Russia, belonging to my friend, Roman. It's a very nice outfit, and while it's no lightweight, it's fairly compact. Roman kept his whole kit, minus tripod, in a rolling, carry-on size suitcase. I don't know enough about Toyo or Sinar monorails to speculate about advantages to either.

Frank Petronio
20-May-2012, 11:05
The Toyo G is a loose copy of the Sinar Norma but the parts are not interchangeable between brands. The plastic levers and small details like that have kept me away but they are certainly capable, solid cameras. But, frankly, the Sinar is better made, which accounts for the price differences. Still they are are better built than most later cameras and they make the same quality pictures as the most expensive cameras!

Alan Gales
20-May-2012, 12:05
With the Sinar you have the option of using the Sinar shutter with lenses that don't have a shutter. A big advantage to some and a moot point to others.

Jay DeFehr
20-May-2012, 14:02
With the Sinar you have the option of using the Sinar shutter with lenses that don't have a shutter. A big advantage to some and a moot point to others.

A nifty feature. I have the shutter, but no lenses in barrels....yet.

Frank Petronio
20-May-2012, 16:11
One trick with the shutter is to mount it on an intermediate or extra front standard, attaching two bellows before and after it (you can even use the bag bellows). Then you can cobble whatever lens mount you can using regular flat boards, and let the rear element stick out the rear however much you like. Even better, you can get a clamping "iris" mount that will hold any barrel lens that is a smaller diameter than the iris - making it possible to experiment with all kinds of weird optics.

The only bad thing about those shutters is the $150 cable release and special flash connector....

Jay DeFehr
7-Jun-2012, 12:00
Well, I finally had a chance to put everything together and make a few exposures. Yeah, I love this camera. I tried out the Symmar-S 210mm in the "studio", and the negs are drying now. I'm curious to compare the Symmar-S negs to the Dogmar negs - they both look pretty great by eye, but prints will tell me more.

Unfortunately, the DB lens mount doesn't work with my Copal shutter, so I'm limited to shooting wide open. If I like what I see, I'll sell it and get one in a regular shutter. Fortunately, the 150mm Symmar has an aperture scale and manual setting, so I can use that one with the Copal shutter.

USing this camera is a joy, and just what I was missing with the other cameras I've used. Everything is so logically placed and works so silky smooth. My Verito is the last lens I have to mount to a board, and I'm looking forward having that back in the lineup.

If I can get some prints made, I'll post some examples.

cdholden
7-Jun-2012, 12:56
Unfortunately, the DB lens mount doesn't work with my Copal shutter, so I'm limited to shooting wide open. If I like what I see, I'll sell it and get one in a regular shutter.

Or find one in a regular barrel.
Also, they're hard to find but if you can find the cable that goes from the rear frame to the Sinar shutter, it's very convenient to use. When you've got the shutter open for composing and focusing, put a film holder in. When the film holder seats, it hits the pin in the cable and triggers the shutter to close and cock, readying it for use.




My Verito is the last lens I have to mount to a board, and I'm looking forward having that back in the lineup.


If you're Verito has 14.5" focal length, the stock flange is too big to properly mount on a Sinar board. S.K.Grimes has made one with a thinner diameter which does fit on the board properly. Let me know if you need photos or the dimensions of mine.

Chris

Jay DeFehr
7-Jun-2012, 13:32
Thanks, CD.

Yes, I didn't think of getting a Symmar in a barrel -- that's a good idea. And yes, my Verito is 14-1/2", and I'm sure the SK Grimes flange is a peach, but I'll probably just rig something myself. And I'll keep an eye out for one of those cables, too!

Jay DeFehr
7-Jun-2012, 13:33
I have a reflex viewer en route, too. I want to see things right side up.