Extra tape at film holder loading flap ends to prevent light leaks

[Sal Santamaura]

In his Chamonix/S&S 7x17 FS ad, Clyde Rogers mentioned that he places black photo tape at either end of film holders' loading flaps to avoid small leaks when handled in bright light. He quoted Sandy King as saying this is normal. With Clyde's permission, here is his photo of the (now sold) holders showing tape pieces affixed.

72201

Please share whether you have problems with light leaking in that area of your holders. If so, which size/type holders are afflicted? In what orientation(s)? How do you cope with this? If you use the same approach that Roger does, have you noticed any change in focus as a result of the extra tape's thickness (which my research indicates is around 0.005 inch to 0.006 inch) pushing a holder's flap end further away from the lens?

Thanks in advance for posting your experiences.

[Daniel Stone]

you can correct this by affixing a piece of tape in the same position as on the film holders onto the side of the g/g frame that touches the camera body. This way your g/g and film plane will be in better alignment. .005 isn't a huge amount, and definitely within the range(probably even more than .005) of the film itself flexing due to expansion and contraction, relative humidity, etc...

Personally, I DO NOT use any extra tape on my holders. Not to knock someone's design in a public setting, I'd personally question the light trap design as a whole if told "this is normal" for it to leak light. I keep my 8x10 and 4x5 holders in individual black bags(and inside a holder bag), and I've not had any light leaks, unless through simple carelessness. I don't shoot in bright sun most of the time, since using transparencies lends itself to more "quiet" light for my tastes.

-Dan

[jcoldslabs]

I've been shooting with well used older wooden 8x10 holders for a while now and had no light leaks with them at all, although I have not tested them for leaks in bright, direct sunlight.

Jonathan

[David A. Goldfarb]

I have to agree with Daniel Stone that the tape should not have to be lightproof, if the holder is designed properly. Even in my oldest wooden filmholders and converted plate holders, the tape is a cloth bookbinding material that can make no claims to being lightproof. The tape is only a hinge, and the light trap should be formed by the flap and the frame of the filmholder. I'll also say, since Sandy's name is mentioned, that I have a couple of S&S holders and haven't had any problems with them.

[E. von Hoegh]

I've never used the tape, and never had problems with lightleaks in my old wood 8x10 holders or my relatively new Riteway 4x5 holders.

[John Kasaian]

I've never had need of extra tape either. Those look to be pretty old holders (pre-Graflex) and may have issues. If it works, more power to 'em, but I wouldn't exactly call it "normal."

[E. von Hoegh]

Those holders are older than anything I use. Leaks may be "normal" for old beat up holders, or poorly designed holders.

[Jim Noel]

I use a variety of holders from 6x9 cm to 7x17". I have never had one leak at the flap except for two holders which were unpainted birch. a little black felt pen took care of those. The tape is there only to hold the flap to the holder. The light trap is a part of the holder and flap, the tape does not contribute to the effectiveness.

[Sal Santamaura]

...Even in my oldest wooden filmholders and converted plate holders, the tape is a cloth bookbinding material that can make no claims to being lightproof. The tape is only a hinge, and the light trap should be formed by the flap and the frame of the filmholder. I'll also say, since Sandy's name is mentioned, that I have a couple of S&S holders and haven't had any problems with them.


...Those look to be pretty old holders (pre-Graflex)...


Those holders are older than anything I use...Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear in my original post. Clyde's photo shows two small, approximately square pieces of black tape at each end of the flaps, covering the "crack" where a flap meets the main holder frame. This is not about the hinging tape; it's extra tape mainly over two pieces of wood (although a small portion might cover some of the hinge tape).

To further clarify, those aren't old holders. They were made by S&S, so can't have been manufactured before that business was founded. I asked the question mainly to find out about visibility of focus plane shifting from the extra tape. I have experienced these small light leaks at exactly the locations Clyde tapes when holders are used (unprotected) in direct sunlight, with Lotus, Chamonix and even plastic Fidelity/Lisco/Toyo holders in sizes 4x5, 5x7, wholeplate, 8x10 and 11x14. All my holders were purchased brand new and, like the rest of my equipment, are extremely well cared for, i.e. indistinguishable from new. For me, the leaks happen only in vertical orientation. Even being relatively careless with secondary dark cloth protection, I've never suffered a leak on horizontal shots.

Sorry for not adequately communicating and thanks for your comments. I'll probably just try some tape and evaluate its efficacy at preventing these specific leaks as well as whether it's visibly detrimental to negative sharpness.

[Merg Ross]

Sal, I understand your post, as I have in the past taped my holders at that exact location. In fact, I taped about twenty of them when I was doing commercial work. However, they were older holders and it seems this is the weak point of the hinge and is not light tight. I have never totally trusted light traps to be 100% lightproof, although that is the theory. At the time, I used vinyl electrical tape, and there is no problem with focus.

Okay, I was addressing a different problem. Do you replace the tape each time after loading the holder? As I envision what you describe, the flap is taped closed. Right?

[Sal Santamaura]

...Do you replace the tape each time after loading the holder? As I envision what you describe, the flap is taped closed. Right?Yes, that's what I see in the photo and gather from Clyde's comments. Tape squares would need to be removed and replaced for loading/unloading, using either new pieces or (if they remain in good enough shape) re-using the removed ones.

[Merg Ross]

Yes, that's what I see in the photo and gather from Clyde's comments. Tape squares would need to be removed and replaced for loading/unloading, using either new pieces or (if they remain in good enough shape) re-using the removed ones.

Got it! Never can be too safe with such concerns. I wouldn't worry about sharpness with those tolerances.

[Oren Grad]

If you use the same approach that Roger does, have you noticed any change in focus as a result of the extra tape's thickness (which my research indicates is around 0.005 inch to 0.006 inch) pushing a holder's flap end further away from the lens?

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but if this skew is an issue, could you not put comparable pieces of tape on the other end of the holder as well to reestablish proper alignment?

[Sal Santamaura]

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but if this skew is an issue, could you not put comparable pieces of tape on the other end of the holder as well to reestablish proper alignment?I was mostly interested in whether anyone else suffered similar leaks and, if so and having mitigated them using extra tape, could detect focus changes. The process hadn't gotten that far ahead. :)

Sure, one could put tape over the rib end too. Fortunately, a bit of the same tape could be used to shim out a camera's focus screen, so no permanent modification to the back would be necessary. I do wonder if all this tape might push a holder far enough away from the seating surface, i.e. beyond where any sealing velvet on the camera could conform, to induce other leaks.

[John Powers]

Sal,

As always your posts are very interesting.

I use one of the fifteen 7x17 Explorer series Dick Phillips built.

Several years ago Michael Mutmansky wrote an article on 7x17 holders that was published in View Camera. I could probably find the article if needed. Since Michael was my 7x17 mentor I followed his advice. He felt the removable (4 screws) board where the dark slide enters the holder and the hinged flap where the film goes in should both be opened and the inside covered with black magic marker. I also darkened the two rails that hold the film in place. Michael was most critical of the holders Sandy build because of light leakage.

Over the years I have accumulated twelve film holders. They are:
AWB Ent
AWB Ent 1995
AWB Ent 1997
AWB Ent 2001
Lotus View Camera
Lotus View Camera (new for the MM article)
Lotus View Camera (new for the MM article)
Great Basin
Great Basin
No Name (I was told by Fred Newman it was Sandy King)
No Name (I was told by Dick Phillips it was Sandy King)
No name bought on eBay (I discovered it had no dark slide retaining L shaped clips. That is hard to see in an eBay photo. I sent it to Sandy who added dark slide hooks. He thought it might have been made by the man who now makes his, but before Sandy was involved. Sandy said the flap was a little short and suggested tape where you have marked.)

I have not had any light leaks since I did the magic marker work. I have stopped using the tape Sandy suggested on the one holder. The tapes either fell off or I forgot to do that holder. While I used the tape I do not remember seeing any focus problems. Since I normally shoot at f45 or f64 the problem may have been masked. Of maybe a thousand shots I have probably only done 6-7 verticals. These did not have light leaks, but I did everything I could to keep the dark cloth over the film holder end.

John Powers

[Colin Graham]

Personally, I DO NOT use any extra tape on my holders. Not to knock someone's design in a public setting, I'd personally question the light trap design as a whole if told "this is normal" for it to leak light. I keep my 8x10 and 4x5 holders in individual black bags(and inside a holder bag), and I've not had any light leaks, unless through simple carelessness. I don't shoot in bright sun most of the time, since using transparencies lends itself to more "quiet" light for my tastes.

-Dan

I have some NOS 5x7 Fidelity holders that leak at the film gate. On a few of these holders the flap is a bit short so that there's almost a 1/64" or so gap on either side- not much but enough that the stepped light trap on the film gate doesn't work like it's designed to. In very bright sun the reflected light exposes the corner margins of the film; no leaks at all on overcast days.

I've never had the problem on any of dozens of Fidelity 4x5s that I own (or the many wooden holders I made based on Fidelity's design), so it seems like more of a random QC issue than a design flaw.

About wooden holders though- climate variance or seasonal movement could account for enough shrinkage in the wood to cause a leak down the road. It doesn't take much for a light leak, the tolerances really are remarkably unforgiving.

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal...As always your posts are very interesting...Thank you very much John. I always attempt to follow my own admonition, namely only start a new thread when the archive doesn't already contain information sought. :)


...I use one of the fifteen 7x17 Explorer series Dick Phillips built....Michael Mutmansky...felt the removable (4 screws) board where the dark slide enters the holder and the hinged flap where the film goes in should both be opened and the inside covered with black magic marker. I also darkened the two rails that hold the film in place...I have not had any light leaks since I did the magic marker work...When purchasing my 11x14 Explorer from Dick, we discussed this too. Dick sold me the camera with three brand new Lotus holders he had on hand. I had Dick open those holders and handle the blackening, although he used analine dye rather than magic marker.


...I have stopped using the tape Sandy suggested...While I used the tape I do not remember seeing any focus problems. Since I normally shoot at f45 or f64 the problem may have been masked. Of maybe a thousand shots I have probably only done 6-7 verticals. These did not have light leaks, but I did everything I could to keep the dark cloth over the film holder end...I've not had leaks with the 11x14 either, but shoot only horizontals with that camera and also protect holders from direct sunlight using the dark cloth.

I just received a small quantity of ebony black analine dye and must now obtain some methyl alcohol to dissolve it in. I'll also be purchasing the black tape. It may take quite a while, but the plan is to blacken some smaller holders (where I do shoot vertical quite a bit), tape others, give them a torture/comparison test (leaks and focus), then report back here.

[sanking]

When I became involved with ULF photography in the late 1980s I bought a Korona 12X20 camera that came with two or three vintage Korona holders. I later acquired two or three other no-name holders for the camera so my working outfit was 5-6 vintage holders. I quickly found that if the holders were left in direct sun light, or even bright indirect daylight, some fogging of the bottom edge of the film at the flap end was possible. Some of the light baffles were not light light either, but that is another story. So I began taping the edge of the flap end (where the edge of the flap meets the holder) with thin opaque tape, and I have continued the practice to this day with ULF. Given the price of a sheet of ULF film, and the effort one puts into hauling this type of equipment into the field, the small extra work gives a lot of piece of mind. Light is very unforgiving and shrinkage and swelling from changes in low humidity can sometimes cause a problem with large wooden film holders.

The holders in the picture Sal included were at one time my personal 7X17 holders, which I used first with a Canham 7X17, then I modified them for the Chamonix, which is the same one Clyde sold. The holders were made about ten years ago.

Adding thin tape to cover the flap joint should have no impact on image sharpness since the thickness of tape is much less than the tolerance of the T-dimension.

Sandy