Looking for alternative daylight developing methods (in very small bathroom)

[welly]

Hey guys,

Currently I'm developing my negatives in my tiny bathroom using a Paterson Orbital processor. While this has been working, I'm not 100% satisfied with the results I'm getting as I find that I'm not getting uniform development and sometimes getting patches of under or overdevelopment on the negatives. I'm not going to give it up entirely but I wouldn't mind experimenting with some alternative methods and am looking for some advice.

At the moment, I have a tiny bathroom and simply don't have the room to do tray development - although will be moving to a new place in June so will be looking for a larger bathroom in my next rental place! But in the meantime, what alternatives could I try? My bathroom can't really be blacked out as I have high ceilings and vents at the top so making the place light-tight will be quite a task, and so really I need a daylight method.

What I do have is one of these Ilford Cibachrome processing drums - as can be seen at http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/260967182919?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648#ht_500wt_1191. It's for 8x10 but I'm not sure if that would work as a daylight drum or not.

Cheers!

Welly

[jp]

What size film do you intend to process?

[welly]

Ah yes.. 4x5 and medium format. Eventually, possibly maybe 8x10 but not any time soon.

[sully75]

you can try this:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/
in truth, I've been futzing around with these sort of drums for several years and I've finally given up. My results have never been perfect, ever, and are inconsistent. This is regardless of the brand of drum I use, developer or rotating base.

Jay DeFehr's "Taco" method I think might be preferable:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/digi-film/sets/72157627864733730/

I've only tried this once and had pretty ok results. I need to fine tune it but then ended up with the drums. So...I'd give that a try.

There's also the HP Combiplan tanks, the Mod photographic holders that can go in Patterson drums. Other stuff too I can't think of at the moment.

[Gem Singer]

Hi Welly, remember me?

One way, or the other, you will need a method of loading film into a developing tank in total darkness. This can be accomplished with a dark bag or tent, if necessary.

Find a previously owned Jobo expert drum and a rotating motor drive. It will be a big investment, but will save time and energy.

Try a Pyro developer.

[welly]

Hi Gem Singer, of course!

I'm using a change bag at the moment to get film into my Paterson so that's not a problem. Funnily enough, I found a Jobo CPE2 advertised on a local free ads website, which had already been sold. However the guy said he also had a Jobo CPA2 processor for sale too. I think that might actually be perfect as it'll control the temperature as well. So I might try and pick that up from him and possibly try my hand at colour developing. Does anyone rate the CPA2? From my brief search on Google, it seems to be a pretty decent product.

[ataim]

I got on e of these. I have yet to process any film. Hopefully tonight I will and check back in.

http://www.mod54.com/index.php

[Bob Salomon]

Combi-Plan T 45 daylight processing tank. All steps, other then film loading, are done in full light. Up to 6 color 45 at a time. 12 B & W can be done back to back at one time. Add a hose and it becomes a force film washer. It's foot print is smaller then any other method. Inversion agitation so no more rolling or sloshing of chemistry.

[Brian Ellis]

BTZS tubes worked well for me for many years for 4x5. They take up little space, are used in room light once the film is in the tubes, use very little chemistry, don't cost much, and work well. There's already a ton of information here about the BTZS tubes so no need to repeat it all, just search here using those four letters. For medium format just pick up a Paterson or any other brand tank and spool (I preferred the plastic spools to the metal, I thought they were easier to load). Unfortunately I just threw away a bunch of the Patersons or I would have given them to you.

[Tony Evans]

For low-cost, simplicity, kitchen sink convenience, repeatability, agitate or stand, can't beat the Taco.

[Pete Watkins]

Hi Welly,
I ain't being funny but it's a major achievement to get bad results from a Patterson Orbital. If you don't have a darkroom use a changing bag (which you do).
Load the sheets of film face up into the Orbital.
Use a pre wash, I do 2x2 minute washes in water at the developing temprature.
I use D-76H 1-1 as my main developer.
I lift the tank off the motor unit every minute and rock it backwards and forewards before replacing it on the motor. I've been told that this is not necessary but it's not hard to do, is it?
I use a water stop (water at the same temprature as the developer). About four washes.
I do 2 x 5 minute fixes with an alkali or neutral fixer.
I've never had a problem or crap result with this method. I do feel that the pre-wash is important.
Good luck,
Pete.

[welly]

How much developer/stop/fixer do you use? What quantity I mean? Perhaps I'm using too little and the sheets aren't getting full coverage. I'll give you suggestions a go and see how I get on, but going to grab that Jobo device as I think it'll be useful!

Cheers,

Welly

Hi Welly,
I ain't being funny but it's a major achievement to get bad results from a Patterson Orbital. If you don't have a darkroom use a changing bag (which you do).
Load the sheets of film face up into the Orbital.
Use a pre wash, I do 2x2 minute washes in water at the developing temprature.
I use D-76H 1-1 as my main developer.
I lift the tank off the motor unit every minute and rock it backwards and forewards before replacing it on the motor. I've been told that this is not necessary but it's not hard to do, is it?
I use a water stop (water at the same temprature as the developer). About four washes.
I do 2 x 5 minute fixes with an alkali or neutral fixer.
I've never had a problem or crap result with this method. I do feel that the pre-wash is important.
Good luck,
Pete.

[John Kasaian]

I've had good results with the Unicolor processor. You only need a dark room to load the (print) drum, but you can probably do that in a large changing bag.

[welly]

I ran a couple of sheets through my Paterson last night and excepting the mark on one of the negatives, I was pleased with the results. Not sure how that mark occurred. I think I need to run a few more sheets through it to test it. It could be that the film is touching the fins and have read in a previous thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?76970-Help-me-with-this-Paterson-Orbital-stripe) that it's recommended they're removed. But before I do that, a few more sheets and then we'll see. I'm only actually using 200ml of liquid in them so can't see how they're floating so high, if that's what is occurring.

I'm undecided whether to bother with the CPA2 as I'm not 100% sure I'm that interested in developing colour at home. I shall decide this evening!

[jvuokko]

Hi Welly,
I ain't being funny but it's a major achievement to get bad results from a Patterson Orbital. If you don't have a darkroom use a changing bag (which you do).
Load the sheets of film face up into the Orbital.
Use a pre wash, I do 2x2 minute washes in water at the developing temprature.
I use D-76H 1-1 as my main developer.
I lift the tank off the motor unit every minute and rock it backwards and forewards before replacing it on the motor. I've been told that this is not necessary but it's not hard to do, is it?
I use a water stop (water at the same temprature as the developer). About four washes.
I do 2 x 5 minute fixes with an alkali or neutral fixer.
I've never had a problem or crap result with this method. I do feel that the pre-wash is important.
Good luck,
Pete.


I wonder where the differences came. I haven't got similar success :(
My first daylight system for LF was paterson orbital.
It gave somewhat good results, but occasionally uneven skies and especially too much density to film edges.

That's with motorized base. The motorized base has one annoying problem; sometimes the orbital tank's refuses to rotate - it stucks and will do only tilting movement. Video on youtube: http://youtu.be/A5L6Cc-byp8


Without base - by rocking the Orbital tank, I get also 'good' results, but not so evenly development skies that I can trust it.


I would like to know how many seconds it took to complete one revolution of tank in your motorized base?
My orbital does about two revolutions in minute - as long as it won't get stuck (this shows the speed: http://youtu.be/YKpCEeJdz9Y )


Developers that I have used: Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100, XTOL 1+1, D-76 1+1 (my main developer) and D-23 divided.



But I have to say that I haven't really got critically even development with any daylight and/or motorized systems I have tried. Different tanks in roller bases... Even hangers and dip'n'dunk in the dark. There's always more or less visible uneveness.


Tray development gives best results, but there's danger of scratches... I think that there's only BTZS stylish tubes, real slosher (I have used orbital as slosher, but I am not confident with results) and the brush development.


ps. It could be also that I am expecting too much... Perhaps perfectly evenly developed sheets just aren't realistic.

[fralexis]

I purchased a Combi-Plan and it works well. I have used it twice now and find it economical in chemical usage and not too many leaks. It leaks a little when pouring in chemicals through the air release valve but it really isn't much...no more than a 35mm tank. Previously I was tray developing and this sure beats that. A little expensive however for a plastic tank. The best available in my opinion if you don't want to spend a gazillion dollars.



Combi-Plan T 45 daylight processing tank. All steps, other then film loading, are done in full light. Up to 6 color 45 at a time. 12 B & W can be done back to back at one time. Add a hose and it becomes a force film washer. It's foot print is smaller then any other method. Inversion agitation so no more rolling or sloshing of chemistry.

[mattermantra]

The HP Combi Plan "T" is a great tank if you don't have a lot of space.

To get the most from it, make sure the rubber lid is on tightly *all* the way around. If you find that your pouring time is taking too long in to or out of the tank, make sure that you have turned the air-vent at the top far enough. I use about a 1L of developer, (instructions say 36oz) but for 6 4x5 sheets thats not so bad. (It's also an improvement over doing two negs at a time stuck to the sides of a Patterson tank!)

The only minor inconvenience that I've found is that for a standard size change-bag it can get a little cramped, but with a bit of practice it's not a problem at all.

[Paul H]

I get evenly developed 9x12cm and 4x5" film using the Orbital. I've never had any problems. Using the manual base, I do a (wobble) rotation about every two seconds, rotating about 20 seconds in each direction with a short pause before rotating in the other direction. I use 150ml of developer - I found that with 200ml, some solution would escape.

I assume that you have the little pegs in? Is the base scored or have you added any ridges? This is recommended by many as a way of ensuring the film doesn't stick to the base.

I have used Rodinal (1+50), but usually use PC-TEA 1+50. (Water stop, and Tetenal SuperFix plus fixer).

[Tim Meisburger]

Hmm... I also use an orbital and I have never had any problem. It is recommended to use just 60ml chemical, but I normally use 70ml. I still have the fins on mine and have never had a problem with film, although with 8x10 prints if the paper is curled you can get a line from the fin. To fix that just curl the paper in the opposite direction until it is fairly flat. Some people thing 60ml of solution is too little, but they are clearly wrong. Just use it one time.

I also have a combi-plan, but its with my enlarger in the US. they work great as well., and I wish I had it here for those times when I want to develop a lot of film at one time.

[jvuokko]

Hi, as it seems that I am (perhaps only) who has problems with Orbital, it must be caused by my agitation.

Perhaps the speed I use to rock the tank is too fast or I raise the edges too much.
I prefer to put Orbital tank on the large paper developing tray which works as water bath and helps keeping temperature at 20 degree celsius.
The amount of water is small, the Orbital tank is not floating so this is equal to agitating tank without base.

I use 300 - 400 ml developer. It does not spill, but it might also be one cause for uneven development (too dense edges).

My tank's bottom is roughted with dremel like tool, negatives won't stick to the base. The fins are also cut off.


So... Need to do well documented set of tests. One serie with different agitations and one serie with varying developer volume. Perhaps 300ml, 200ml, 150ml and 100ml would give some results.

[cjbroadbent]

... Need to do well documented set of tests. One serie with different agitations and one serie with varying developer volume. Perhaps 300ml, 200ml, 150ml and 100ml would give some results.

More than 125cc in an Orbital creates what looks like bad laminar flow. See it with dummy film and the lid off.
Also, if the sheet is not clicking around, it is stuck to the bottom. So I knock the tray during a 70cc pre-wash and add in the developer on top of the wash once the film is well and truly free.
Next best in a light-leaky bathroom is stand development in a small tupperware food container, under a box, and on a tray (for agitation).

[jvuokko]

More than 125cc in an Orbital creates what looks like bad laminar flow. See it with dummy film and the lid off.
Also, if the sheet is not clicking around, it is stuck to the bottom. So I knock the tray during a 70cc pre-wash and add in the developer on top of the wash once the film is well and truly free.
Next best in a light-leaky bathroom is stand development in a small tupperware food container, under a box, and on a tray (for agitation).


That is interesting. I did dummy test and yes, 70cc is enough with constant agitation. When using Orbital like a slosher with intermittent agitation, 300cc is not enough to cover sheet(s) because of curvature of the bottom.
When using enough developer to cover film sheets, the required agitation is really small, way smaller than I have ever thought. I would say that only couple of millimeters lift from tank's corner or one edge causes more than enough developer flow. The flow is laminar, which will cause at least some degree of rebound flow when the 'wave' hits the opposite edge of the Orbital tank.

I haven't yet done developing test with really careful agitation. With a luck, the rebounding wave does not cause pronounced edge density. I am bit sceptical though.

[rince]

I am using a jobs 2520(?) and a 2509n spiral and with 4 sheets it works great, I have fairly even development, but it sure uses a lot of chemicals. Still I have to say this is a very convenient way to develop 4 sheets at a time. When I tried the max of 6sheets, the spiral can hold, I was not as happy with the results then, but with 4 it is consistent, even and tank and spiral are relatively inexpensive.

[Ed Bray]

I have used the Taco method in a Paterson Universal Tank with good success more often than not processing 4 sheets at a time although there has been the occasional mark on the negative as they are slightly too long really for that tank. To prevent this I have started to use a old Jobo tank that I had in the loft which, whilst being a 'Universal' is slightly taller than the Paterson one and the sheets of film fit just nicely, no more marks on the film since.

I have a Paterson Orbital tank and I am planning on trying to use it with Caffenol C-L semi-stand, I will stand the Orbital in a tray of tempered water (10x12 print tray on tray heater) during the 4, 8, 18 & 40 minute stand times and will take out and put it on the orbital base for the agitation cycles. I have estimated that the orbital needs about 450mls to fully cover the sheets of film when on a flat base.

I will report back later with my findings.

[Mike Wallis]

Instead of blacking out tupperware tubs, try Kelly's Cornish Icecream tubs. They're black. Hold them up to a light and they're very black. They also meet the approval of my wife, who likes the honeycomb recipe best!

I load them up in a Calumet collapsable darkroom. Pre-wash for five minutes, then Rodinol at 1:200 for 2 hours at room temp. Water stop, then Kodak hardening fix (I use AdOx so need to harden)
Results are great.
I gave up using 5x4 tanks as they took so long to fill/empty it was a large proportion of the normal development time. However using a 2 hour development, timing isn't critical any more.