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View Full Version : Old printing papers ... lost and forgotten?



James Phillips
21-Dec-2003, 09:34
Throughout the past five years or so since I have re-entered the realm of photography I have been seeing opinions voiced on printing papers lost and gone. You know the ones I am referring to such as Agfa Portiga and Oriental Seagull (certain types) and other well known papers. Well I would like to ask those of you who have had the enjoyment of using these papers your opinion or perhaps your vote on you favorite lost paper and why it would achieve this privilege in the ranking system?

If it was possible to have a manufacture such as Ilford (randomly picking one) bring back a paper from the past, then which paper would you like to have available again?

I guess that the reason I am asking is that I sometimes feel that I have missed out during the “era of great printing papers” and have been tempted to buy old stock from Ebay. Of course my experience to date with old stock is that it usually has too high a level of general fog for my liking so I shy away from the purchase.

I also frequently wonder if theses wonderful attributes attributed to older papers are just a simple longing for the “old tried and true” rather than actual fact that these papers were better. It is quite difficult for me to accept that manufactures would intentionally stop making papers that were better performers and replace these papers with inferior products.

So for those that have been there… am I am correct in thinking that the old papers are just a nostalgia phase and really do not hold any special merit except for perhaps a few memories?

Kind Regards,

John Kasaian
21-Dec-2003, 10:07
James,

I'm in the same boat as you. Maybe old papers were more costly to manufacture, but I wish there were more of a selection of graded fiber papers today, as there was in the past. Oriental, Zone VI(before they dumped graded papers) and Ilford are nice enough. I haven't tried Bergger yet but I will. AZO of course, is still available for contact prnting and I thing we'll see some offerings from eastern europe before too long. As a practical matter, I'm content with whats out there----If I can't get the results I want the problem is likely me, not the paper.------Cheers!

Jim Galli
21-Dec-2003, 10:33
The attributes you long for aren't gone...the price just went up. I'd explore Bergger's papers. Beautiful but expensive. Forte has some very nice papers also. I had a favorite that was something Freestyle of Los Angeles used to re-box and they called it Europes Finest Warm Tone. Graded #2 was actually a very looong #2. Don't know whose it was but made many very long scale negs that fit it well and then it dis-appeared. It was heavy, had a beautiful smoothe surface and with Ansco 135 and some selenium was a very beautiful warm black. I measured the black at work at 216. One of the attributes I liked best about that paper and miss most.........$28 for 50 sheets!

Nick Morris
21-Dec-2003, 12:35
When I wrote Kodak about their discountinuing Ekatlure, they responded by telling me enviornmental issues were the reason they discountinued the paper. Probably some of the reason, and it may have been a factor for other papers as well, but I suspect that manufactures projected eliminating graded papers when varible contrast paper quality improved. I'm using Agfa Multicontrast Classic, which I like quite abit, it responds well to different developers and toners; and Ilford Ilfobrom Gallere, graded, which is very nice, but less flexible. I have used one package (25 sheets) of Forte's Polywarmtone Semi-Matt fiber, an expensive, but vey nice paper. I will probably start using Azo for some contact printing, work more with the Forte paper, and try Ilford's Multigrade, and Bergger. These papers, Agfa, Azo, Ilford, Forte and Bergger, seem to be popular with a number of current photograhers, and prints I've seen were very good. The varible contrast papers are pretty flexible, allowing for "fine tuning" techniques not available with graded papers. Like you, I have had poor results buying old stocks of the classic papers, particulary Potriga, but I did have some Azo from 1973 that printed. It was grade 2, and I was producing grade 4 negs when I tried it out. I gave the remainder to Michael Smith, and will try the new product being produced in Canada, now that I have a better handle on my film exposure and development. Good luck, and a joy-filled holiday season.

David A. Goldfarb
21-Dec-2003, 14:01
I suspect environmental concerns about cadmium killed off Ektalure, and perhaps other papers and maybe even Kodachrome 25, which was discontinued in part because of an environmental issue (I'm not sure exactly what) that would have required re-engineering the film (the other side of it, I'm sure, being that sales of the film wouldn't pay for re-engineering).

The great lost enlarging paper used by many of the greats is said to be DuPont Velour Black. That's one I'd like to bring back and try.

Aaron van de Sande, who sometimes frequents this list, managed to get ahold of some Haloid Industro, a contact paper that Weston used, and I saw a print from it, and it was great stuff, though not necessarily better than Azo/amidol. He eventually sold it off, I think, because he was moving and was going to be without darkroom for a while.

A modern enlarging paper that I really like and that doesn't seem to get much attention is Cachet (Maco) Expo graded. They claim a higher gold chloride content than other premium papers. Whatever it has, it holds shadow detail very nicely while maintaining solid blacks and clean whites. The tone is very slightly warm in Agfa Neutol WA and the base is slightly less bright than Galerie graded.

Mark_3632
21-Dec-2003, 14:14
A photographer who was going all Alternative donated his freezer stored paper to the local CC darkroom for the students to play with. we got to play with all kinds, but most were discontinued. I fell in love with Seagul #3. And no the new VC paper is nothing like it. That was one cold Paper.

Alan Davenport
21-Dec-2003, 14:55
Buried in a box in my basement -- somewhere -- is an unopened package of some kind of printing paper, 5x7, expiration date sometime in the 1940's. I doubt if it's usable, but it certainly qualifies as old, lost and forgotten.

Kevin M Bourque
21-Dec-2003, 15:02
I was at a Howard Bond workshop a few years ago and asked him about modern vs. older materials. He admitted that there were some very good discontinued emulsions, but was of the opinion that modern stuff was as good or better than what he used to use (Howard is about 70, so he’s been at it for a while).

In particular, he showed me a print made on the previously mentioned Velour Black, and the same negative printed on a current Ilford paper (I forget which one). He said that both were the best print he knew how to make at the time. Maybe he wasn’t as good a printer then, but the Ilford print was clearly better…deeper blacks and more shadow separation. He seemed to think that part of the “deleted classics” syndrome was misty-eyed nostalgia, and didn’t have much to do with real prints.

The older stuff was definitely different, but not necessarily better. The problem is that we get used to something, and when it’s gone, we miss it!

lee\c
21-Dec-2003, 18:07
I still have some of the old Oriental Seagull. I just finished the last of the 8x10 paper of this same brand. It is a beautiful paper and I will miss it. I have several boxes of 16x20 still of this paper also. Since I don't print too much in 16x20 I am thinking of cutting it down to 8x10. This stuff has been mistreated and stored in less than the best areas that include excessive heat and it is still good. It is maybe 6 years old at the youngest.

leec

Joe Smigiel
21-Dec-2003, 21:04
After Kodak made the decision to discontinue Ektalure I decided that was the last straw and I've switched to Ilford products for enlarging, particularly the warmtone FB. I think Ektalure has to be my all time favorite. It toned very nicely in selenium, I really liked the cream base, and the G surface was great for hand-coloring. The combination of nudes on 2475 recording film printed on Ektalure was sublime.

Another paper I thought was neat at one time was old Agfa Brovira. I recall using it in the 70s and it seemed almost blue to me. Later boxes were more neutral and not as appealing. The switch seemed to occur when they changed the contrast grading scheme (dropping grade 6). As I recall, this was about the time when the legendary Portriga-Rapid also changed formulation, apparently because of the cadmium content.

Luminos Tapestry and Charcoal also get used once in awhile.

A paper I really enjoy now is Centennial POP for contact prining. I suspect most of my future prints will be done on either AZO or Centennial since I've pretty much abandoned small format cameras and enlarging.

Jeff Buckels
22-Dec-2003, 08:24
I don't think the quality of Portriga Rapid was merely legendary. I'm talking about paper I used in the late 70s (at that time, by the way, people who'd been in the business for a long time complained that the Portriga of that moment was inferior to that of "bygone times" -- I have no idea if that was so). Anyway, I've yet to see a paper that produces a better neutral/bluish black than Portriga toned in a thin dilution of selenium. I have some prints from that 70s period with blacks that I cannot quite match (in my subjective judgment) w/ Azo.... The Bergger papers are definitely worth anybody's time, esp. (in my experience) the Silver Supreme. That is the best commercial silver paper I know anything about. Takes time and experimentation to get used to it, and it's expensive as the blazes. I guess I really don't mean it's better than Azo, which is more "brilliant" (glossier). Silver Supreme has a real "salon" look, when used well (my old Imagon pictorial lens is a good, natural match). There are many subjects, no doubt, for which the harder look of Azo is better suited.... Apart from Azo and Bergger, I'm not sure I believe there is any paper around to rival the Oriental of old, the Portriga of old. Speaking of which, my Complete Photographer encyclopedia, c. 1941, indicates that the Azo of that moment was available in SEVEN GRADES. Take that, Michael.... One more thing: Anybody ever tried lith printing with Silver Supreme? -jb

Michael A.Smith
22-Dec-2003, 11:29
Seven grade of Azo!!! That is something. I have six Grades 0-5, but I did not know of seven. It also used to come in about 100 different sizes--one size for every format. for example 2 1/4 x 2 3/4, 6 1/2 x 8 1/2. The list is endless. Now it is down to two grades and two sizes. Pitiful

John Cook
22-Dec-2003, 14:28
I miss DuPont Velour Black. Big-time.

But I don’t know how much of my melancholy is for the paper alone. In those days I was still in my 20's, newly married, driving a two-year-old Mercedes for which I had paid $2,495.00, working in Hollywood for the photographer who had shot the famous nude of Marilyn Monroe, the Kodak catalogue was still an inch thick, and I was carrying around a brand-new 8x10 Deardorff.

Oh yes, and my knees still worked.

lee\c
24-Dec-2003, 16:28
I also miss Agfa's Insignia paper. Nice warm tone with a brilliant white base. Just lovely, I think I miss that more than Broveria...well, it is a tie.

leec