Places to see in Indian Country

[Ed Richards]

We are thinking about a driving trip from Baton Rouge through Austin to Santa Fe and perhaps the Grand Canyon. The goal will be to see what we can of the historic Indian sites and perhaps go up to Shiprock. I last went through this area as a kid, and that was 50 years ago. Flagstaff was barely a wide spot in the road and Grand Canyon was not very crowded. I have some Kodachromes I shot on that trip, but little memory of anything. I would like to do some photography on the way, subject to my wife's patience. What would folks familiar with the area recommend putting on our destination list? Canyon de Chelly is a must see. This will be in mid-May - is that the best time?

[John Kasaian]

You're looking for ancient sites, or contemporary?
Walnut Canyon is just East of Flagstaff, but it's a steep hike uphill to get back to the parking lot.
Chaco Canyon would have to be on the "A" list of any sites---I understand the car camping is primative and I don't know how accessible it would be during monsoon season.
Not the time of year you're after, but the Christmas Eve festivals in the Pueblos near Santa Fe are incredible feasts for all the senses.

[Mark Barendt]

Monument Valley.

Mesa Verde.

[Mark Barendt]

You're looking for ancient sites, or contemporary?
Walnut Canyon is just East of Flagstaff, but it's a steep hike uphill to get back to the parking lot.
Chaco Canyon would have to be on the "A" list of any sites---I understand the car camping is primative and I don't know how accessible it would be during monsoon season.
Not the time of year you're after, but the Christmas Eve festivals in the Pueblos near Santa Fe are incredible feasts for all the senses.

+1 on Chaco.

The monsoons don't normally come until July, sometimes even August.

[Frank Petronio]

The politically correct term is "Injun Country" and you better be packing.

Bandelier National Monument and nearby Los Alamos combine a lot of history, intersections of cultures, scenic beauty, ironic juxtapostions and nuclear waste... the thinking man's Roswell.

Chaco was a lot of fun to climb around and felt the most like a real living settlement still.

Canyon De Chelly!

I like the land North and East of Taos.

Las Vegas, New Mexico still feels like a real 1950s town and isn't all touristy.

It was a very nice, long drive, been there 3-4x now, Still have to shoot some landscapes but I just take it in.

[ROL]

The goal will be to see what we can of the historic Indian sites and perhaps go up to Shiprock.

Chaco NHP wins hands down. Being somewhat remote and inconvenient to other sites, my wife and I avoided it for years, but finally found enough time to squirt over to NW New Mexico. We ended up staying four four days before regrettably tearing ourselves away. This was when entry was only by miles of dirt road (paved now, I believe, before they began road controls and the like). There were few visitor services (no gas, groceries – bring your own and be prepared to camp).

Quite uncrowded and free to roam among the many ruin sites, if you don't mind hikes. Most sites were in states of arrested decay since the early days of discovery. From the Chacoan architecture, to Fajada Butte's Sun Dagger, the Supernova Pictograph, and the Jackson Steps along ancient roads, it is a seemingly unending source of fascination, mystery and intrigue. But what many find most unique about Chaco is its natural history based astronomical observatory programs, unique to the Park System. Telescopes lined up on the VC patios every evening.

Photography can be difficult with bald skies.


Pueblo Bonito
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/ChacoCanyon/Pueblo-Bonito-%232.jpg

Kiva, Pueblo Bonito
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/ChacoCanyon/Pueblo-Bonito-Kiva.jpg

Sunrise, Fajada Butte
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/ChacoCanyon/Fajada-Butte.jpg

Supernova Pictograph
http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/ChacoCanyon/Supernova-Pictograph.jpg

[adam satushek]

Thanks Frank. I really appreciate that this terminology as well as favorite "female photographer" rubs you the wrong way. It bothers me to an I'm glad you are calling people out.

[Frank Petronio]

Hey I thought he was going to Bangalore?

Knowing Ed, I bet he was just being a wise-guy.

[Thad Gerheim]

Indian country? I thought the americas was all theirs. Maybe you mean Anasazi? And while you are there, check out the local honky culture. Then head east for some good'ole redneck music and continue on east for great food in cracker country. But you might want to continue on north, so you feel at home in WASP country. Have a good trip!

[Brian Ellis]

IIRC in Canyon de Chelly you'll need an Indian guide to go anywhere (except the White House ruins IIRC). You can go on a tour or hire your own. When I was there someone else hired our Indian guide which costs more but was well worth it I thought. We spent plenty of time photographing and at almost every stop we'd see a tour group pull up, spend maybe 10-15 minutes in the area, then zip on to the next stop.

[SW Rick]

Two good guide services in Canyon de Chelly are:

http://www.canyondechelly.net/

Twin Trail Scenic Tours: (928) 349-5560




IIRC in Canyon de Chelly you'll need an Indian guide to go anywhere (except the White House ruins IIRC). You can go on a tour or hire your own. When I was there someone else hired our Indian guide which costs more but was well worth it I thought. We spent plenty of time photographing and at almost every stop we'd see a tour group pull up, spend maybe 10-15 minutes in the area, then zip on to the next stop.

[DolphinDan]

Hi Ed,

Well nice to hear that a fellow Louisiana-ian is making the trek to Arizona :-)

+1 on Chaco Canyon, but make sure you have food and water because you won't find it anywhere near the site (I made that mistake in 2003 and am still getting an earful about it). Best way to see it coming from Baton Rouge is to drive up from Albuquerque, not Gallup. Plan to spend an afternoon (or morning) at the site. Monsoons/rain start in July, so coming in May is fine.

Other interesting Indian ruins off of I-40 near Flagstaff: Wupatki and Wukoki ruins northeast of Flagstaff. Wukoki is just 1 ruin if I recall correctly. Wupatki has several buildings and a ball court with a blowhole nearby. You can probably see them with the Walnut Canyon ruins in a long afternoon (or morning). They are on the way to Hopi land (if you decide to visit), the 3 mesas where the Hopi live. Be aware that Wupatki and Wukoki are on the Navajo Reservation, so you want to make sure that you are driving the speed limit.

+1 on Monument Valley. Note that Monument Valley is quite a ways off the path to the Grand Canyon. Add another day to your trip if you want to check out Monument Valley. On the plus side, the Navajo people opened a hotel right beside the entrance to Monument Valley and some rooms have an incredible view of the valley for sunrise and sunset. And across the highway from this hotel is another hotel/museum where John Wayne and crew used to stay when filming those old westerns; fun place to see if you like those John Wayne westerns. About 30 minutes east of Monument Valley is a cool/photographic site called Valley of the Gods. It looks like Sedona without any houses or buildings. Great place for a sunrise or sunset shot or just to drive around and explore.

Mesa Verde is in Colorado and add about 4 hours to get to it from Chaco Canyon. Also, if I recall correctly the site is not completely open until June (I think the issue is snow still on the roads/ground). I do like Mesa Verde, but you are better off seeing it in the Summer when the whole site is open.

Petrified Forest is around Canyon de Chelly; might be worth a stop.

Other scenic sites: the San Francisco Peaks (including Mount Humphreys, http://www.fs.usda.gov/coconino/recreation/peaks/humphreys-tr.shtml, the highest peak in Arizona at around 12,600 feet) north of Flagstaff on Highway 180 (assuming that you do not bypass Flagstaff by taking I-40 to Highway 89A going north). Lots of beautiful Aspens and Pines with some snow still on the ground in May. Red Mountain (http://www.arizonahikingtrails.com/hikingpages/redmountain.html), a fun little mountain further down Highway 180 past Snowbowl Road (the northwest road up the San Francisco Peaks off of Highway 180) and on the way to the Grand Canyon. Also, a lava tube between Snowbowl Road and Red Mountain, literally freezing cold year round.

Be aware that around Flagstaff and that area the temperatures will be getting down around freezing at night, even in May. So make sure you have some winter clothes and jackets in your car, especially if you might be out at sunset or later.

Think of me when you eat some crawfish etouffee :-)

Daniel

[Mark Barendt]

From Chaco, Monument Valley is right on the way to Grand Canyon you just go in the eastern entrance instead of the southern entrance. In fact it is the fastest way from Chaco to the Grand Canyon.

On this route going to Mesa verde only adds about an hour extra. Canyon De Chelly isn't a big offset either from this route.

The thing that must be remembered though about all these places is that the travel between entrances isn't the whole story. These are not "roadside" attractions. You can easily spend a day or more in each spot.

[John Jarosz]

I believe Shiprock is considered a sacred spot by the Indians. Don't think you can get close-up access without some kind of Indian guide or specific permission. It's out in the open surrounded by nothing, but if you want to get close you should research this.

[Mark Barendt]

Good point on the sacred site thing, respecting the locals and posted signs is important throughout the area. Ask the gate keepers about the rules on taking pictures.

Actually Shiprock is reasonably close to county roads and highways and big enough to be seen many miles away, I actually get that distant view from 20-30 miles out at least once a week.

Shiprock is typically more of a drive by scenic view than a place where you'd hire a guide. It's pretty much just a landmark in a valley, granted a very iconic land mark; but still it is not a cultural site/tourist destination even remotely on par with Mesa Verde, Canyon de Chelly, and Chaco.

My guess is that if you drive up close the only people you'll see will be the locals and that you'll be one of the only tourist that goes down those particular roads on that given day.

[Heroique]

Of the many excellent books about the area, I love these two the most – enjoyable, informative reading before you go, and while you’re there: :cool:

1) Anasazi: Ancient People of the Rock
--By Donald Pike
Photos by David Muench
Excellent overview of the area’s natural & Anasazi cultural history – w/ stunning photography, of course. Pike’s writing is graceful like Muench’s best photos.

2) In Search of the Old Ones
--By David Roberts
Adventurous first-hand account about exploring Anasazi Country w/ greater emphasis on the White Man’s treatment of the area since the Weatherill brothers’ 19th-C discovery of many of the monuments.

[Two23]

Indian country? .... And while you are there, check out the local honky culture. Then head east for some good'ole redneck music and continue on east for great food in cracker country.

This is a photography forum, not a Political Correctness forum. Stop acting like an a-hole. As for "Indian Country," surely you are aware of the national tribal publication, "Indian Country?" http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/

back to Mesa Verde, there has been a lot less snow this year. If it opens earlier this year it is worth a visit.


Kent in SD,
"real" Indian country

[Thad Gerheim]

Sorry Kent. I don't want to start a shouting match. Just in Idaho, we have at least five different tribes and it struck me as vague, ignorant and ironic to call a place in Arizona and New Mexico as Indian Country. I'm sure Ed didn't mean anything by it and he is correct to call it that. I just wanted to poke a little fun.

Thad
Smack dab in what used to be Shoshone Country, north of the Bannock, west of the Blackfoot and south of the Nez Perce(who don't like that name because they never pierced their noses).

[Andrew Plume]

[QUOTE=Frank Petronio;856862]The politically correct term is "Injun Country" and you better be packing.


Las Vegas, New Mexico still feels like a real 1950s town and isn't all touristy.



yep, Las Vegas NM, an outstanding town imo too

andrew

[Rich Long]

Another vote for Chaco.

Be aware that in Monument Valley, you'll be limited to the public road for photography, unless you hire a guide.

If you do stop by Valley of the Gods (dirt road, don't venture onto it if it's going to rain), an interesting feature just a couple miles away is the "Moki Dugway". Not a photographic feature, but worth the 15-minute side trip to ponder "OMG, does the road really go there?"

Since Las Vegas, NM has been mentioned twice, I'll point this out. If you want to see the landscape around that area, watch "No Country for Old Men". Actually, a quick look at Wikipedia has just informed me that a surprising number of movies were filmed there.

Also - if you're staying in Santa Fe for a night or two, it may be worth the extra money to stay right on the square at La Fonda. If you're not looking at the sunset through your ground-glass, catch it with a margarita in your hand from the rooftop bar at La Fonda. But get there a little early - space is limited and it's a popular spot for sunset.

Hope you enjoy the trip and get some great images.

[civich]

Grand Gulch, SE Utah. Not one of the developed, grand scenic locations - more an intimate, small canyon walk where you are up close and surprised by ruins, turkey pens, and rock paintings around almost every meander in the creek - in places you will be walking on pottery shards. +1 for Las Vegas. Go through it when you are heading home and take hwy 104 through Trujillo - you will definitely know you are leaving the high country behind.
-Chris

[John Jarosz]

Far from being non photgraphic, the top of the plateau by way of the Moki Dugway is quite a spot. It's called Muley Point and you can look down into the Monument Valley and see 25-30 miles. But the Moki Dugway is quite a challenge, not for the faint of heart. It's actually a state road that goes up the face of a 900 foot cliff. It's dirt and gravel, no roadside barriers and in some places only wide enough for one car. I think it's best done going up (the downward travel is a little nerve wracking). You can get back down to earth by taking another route that continues north. So the most efficient way to do this is if you are basically traveling north.

[goamules]

The pueblo tribes of New Mexico are some of the longest continually occupied towns in the Americas. Santa Fe had a big Indian revolt once that kicked all the anglos out for years....in 1680. It's the oldest capital city in America, and has plenty of Native living history walking around and selling things on the plaza. The northern Arizona and 4 corners regions are mostly native american, where everyone you see in a diner are Indian, and the radio stations speak Navajo for the news. I can walk out of my front door and find Indian pottery and arrowheads. My wife teaches 75% native americans at the Arizona School for the Deaf and Blind. I'd say NM and AZ are very, very much Indian Country. And lots of great photography too!

[Pat Kearns]

My wife & I stayed at the La Fonda when she attended a conference and it is a 5 star hotel. A couple of years ago we stayed at the El Rey Inn and my wife fell in love with it. Landscapping impeccable, each room is decorated uniquely, and a great buffet breakfast. It will probably be our choice of accomodations when ever traveling to Santa Fe.

When you get to Holbrook, AZ then you have to at least stop at the Wigwam Motel on old route 66. That is a time warp motel that has to at least be photographed.

If traveling to Monument Valley a Navajo guide is needed to travel off the public self guided tour. If interested send me a pm and I give you the guide service info we used last September. Have fun on your trip.

[windpointphoto]

Indian country? I thought the americas was all theirs. Maybe you mean Anasazi? And while you are there, check out the local honky culture. Then head east for some good'ole redneck music and continue on east for great food in cracker country. But you might want to continue on north, so you feel at home in WASP country. Have a good trip!

Well a few years ago they, the indians, decided they didn't want to be called Anasazi. It's always something new.

[venchka]

Pre-Katrina I had spent most of my life with a driver's license in South Louisiana. At last count I had driven through Amarillo at least 2 dozen times. None of that makes me an expert on what to see & photograph out west. It does give me a bit of experience driving to/from New Mexico and points beyond from South Louisiana. Post-Katrina I have come to loath driving through Houston and Austin.
Where is this going Wayne? Ed, unless you have urgent business in Austin, or a very very good reason to visit Austin, go to New Mexico via Shreveport, Wichita Falls, Amarillo, Santa Rosa, etc. You can bypass DFW by going NW on US 69 from Mineloa to Sherman and then east on US 82 to Henrietta. St jo is a cool old town that hasn't been spoiled yet. Pick up US 287 and follow it NW to Amarillo. This is HUD country. The movie was filmed, I'm guessing from old memories, around Claude and/or Goodnight. Palo Duro Canyon S.P. south of Amarillo is a nice preview of things to come.
Be safe. Have fun.

Wayne

[John Kasaian]

Tomasitas in Santa Fe.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g60958-d437487-Reviews-Tomasita_s_Restaurant-Santa_Fe_New_Mexico.html
To eat, not photograph :)
Wonderful food!

[Frank Petronio]

Ed hasn't responded all month.... hmm?

[Ed Richards]

Just letting all the good information pile up. One thing is clear - with the distances and size of the sites, I need to pick 2 or 3 key sites for the trip and not try to cram in 10 places to see.

[Mark Barendt]

It really depends on what strikes your fancy.

For example a fun first trip to Monument valley is to get to Gouldings for an early lunch, see their little Museum, be at the gate for the self guided driving tour by 1pm, for sunset be back at the campground or "The View" hotel early enough to take a walk with the camera and find a nice place to photograph the Mittens. In the morning be up early for backlit sunrise shots of the mittens. At this point you have the iconic stuff under your belt. If you want more, stay another day nd get a guide, if not you can be at the Grand Canyon or Lake Powell or Canyon de Chelly for lunch.

The drive between these places is also interesting, not like I40 crossing OK and TX.

[Kirk Gittings]

I've usually found that the best images are found somewhere on the way to or from the "iconic" sites.

[John Jarosz]

Now you've done it. You've told everyone the secret.

[Kirk Gittings]

Now you've done it. You've told everyone the secret.:cool:

[Kirk Gittings]

Ed let me know when you are going to be out this way. Maybe we could get together.

[Ed Richards]

I would like to see some of the iconic sites, but I am not interested in photographing them in other people's tripod holes. I tend to like to the out of the way places and unusual details. Plus I find that shoot and go does not work well for me. I need to know an area to see well.

[Peter York]

I think Cacho might be right up yer alley. Its relatively out of the way but easy to get to, unless it has rained. Mesa Verde is spectacular, but geared to a shoot-n-go public.

I recommend taking at least a day to explore the area around Santa Fe and Taos. Daniel Gibson's "Pueblos of the Rio Grande, a Visitor's Guide" is quite useful. If you have only one day, you can't go wrong taking the high road to Taos, visiting the Santuario de Chimayo (and Rancho de Chimayo for lunch), San Jose de Gracia in Las Trampas, San Francisco de Assis in Taos, and Taos Pueblo. Each of these sites is worth seeing regardless of photography, and each is compact enough that you can walk around, contemplate, AND make an image.

For a more out of the way experience, requiring 4x4 and hiking, the Coomb Ridge/Cedar Mesa area is wonderful.

[Robert Langham]

Canyon de Chelly has got to be on the list. The Thunderbird has always been reliable and there is a newer Holiday Inn close to the entrance. You can walk in at White House Ruin and walk around a lot at Spider Rock overlook. (Be sure and check out the caves off the rim at Spider Rock.) The canyon tours are interesting but they don't pause for photographs. Guides are 30.00 an hour for the canyon bottom. Worth it. They have jeeps of their own or you can take a 4WD in. You can't get into ruins or approach them closely but plenty to photograph. Like being inside a sculpture.

Shiprock has no ruins that I have seen except a couple of very little rockwork places that are of unknown origin. Might be some kind of spirit/quest site. You do see prayer wheels around it, some made with beer bottles, and those little burned corn altars. Two graves up on the rock, one probably only holding ashes but the other seems to have a whole person in it. They are in obscure spots and easy to overlook. Shiprock quite beautiful in whole and in detail. Keep your car in sight. There isn't any local security that would be interested in you. Closest place is to stay in Farmington- 40 miles one way. I usually truck camp but you have to be careful there. At the popular spots the party could start at 1:00AM.

Chaco is worth a visit. Campsites only. If you need it, bring it.

[Peter Lewin]

To mention two Anasazi sites not yet mentioned, Keet Seel and Betatakin are in the same Navajo area you are contemplating. For both, the hiking season begins end-May, which might be too late, since you mentioned mid-May. Keet Seel might be the best-preserved Anasazi site open to the public, because it is a hard 8-mile hike each way, but it is something of a life-time experience. I did it years ago, camping overnight in the NPS camp site. You can only tour the site with a guide, and cannot set up a tripod within the ruin, but you can photograph from the camp site and into the ruin.

Along with many others who have posted, I would consider Chaco Canyon a "can't miss" especially because the photography is unrestricted and the ruins are extensive and wonderful. We camped there (suspect that is really the only way to do it) and we were visited by both coyotes and the ghosts of the Anasazi. You won't forget the experience.

[Kirk Gittings]

Hovenweep is one of my top sights too. I was there on a BLM Visiting Artist gig last spring and according to the rangers the camping spots never fill.

[Heroique]

...Comb Ridge/Cedar Mesa area is wonderful.

Comb Ridge, above the access roads, is a lonely hiking area w/ spectacular ruins hidden in gigantic alcoves. If you’re good w/ a compass and topo map, it’s full of unexpected surprises. Even if you don’t come across the ruins when hiking up, the view along the spine of the ridge is, well, spine tingling. And a nice view for lunch.

The choice of easy-to-defend, out-of-the-way dwelling sites, especially here, convinces me the Anasazi were often under siege – or warring w/ each other.

[Kirk Gittings]

No doubt about that. The myth of the peaceful farmers is long gone.

[Drew Wiley]

I too agree with that. Often right at the mouths of the canyons there are specific local
symbols which remind me of some repetitive piece of gang graffiti that states, "this is ours - keep out". It becomes quite dramatic as you see how the older sites were at the
broad mouths of the canyons where farming was comparatively easy, and then they just got more and more paranoid moving up onto the cliffs. Intestine wars no doubt. But it got harder and harder to farm from up there, and then the drought hit, arroyos cut deeper, and their passive irrigation didn't work so well anymore upcanyon. Or so the hypothesis goes. Just be careful out there toward Comb Ridge etc - even an ordinary 4WD can bog down in the sand w/o the right tires. I've found sagebrush to be a good emergency traction aid in the sand. And leave the artifacts in their solitude, if you happen to get
to an unspoiled ruin.

[Peter York]

All human societies are violent - the Anasazi are no different.

There is good evidence now of ritualized cannibalism at Chaco.

[Kirk Gittings]

There is good evidence of ritualized cannibalism and/or human sacrifice (sometimes the two are closely related and hard to distinguish in the archeological record) all over the Americas, Europe, Africa etc. going back at least to the Neolithic period. It appears to have been common amongst the Neanderthals. It was naiveté for generations of people here to think it went no further north than the valley of Mexico amongst the Indians and be surprised by the finding at Chaco. I know I was and then did some study of the practice. The oh so "peaceful" Hopis were known to practice it in historic times against their enemy dead.

[Drew Wiley]

The thing with the Anasazi didn't seem to be their fear of outside invasion but inter-clan rivalries. The apparently went after each other. What triggered this I cannot say. Perhaps
Kirk is more up to date than I am on the current hypotheses. Here in Calif it was more like
New Guinea, with petty reprisal feuds going on between villages for sometimes centuries,
sometimes started simply by an insult or kidnapping a bride etc. The Anasazi by comparison
were highly organized and there might have been a religious element to the strife. I don't
know - I don't keep up well on SW archaelology. I'm into Palaeo. But I do know that the cannibalism hypothesis at Chaco has been contested by several scholars. When I've gone into the canyon I've come back with LF shots of rock details etc, almost never a ruin per se, but still, just looking at those things stuffed way up inacessible almost makes you sense their collective fear. And maybe that whole terror episode was only a couple hundred years or so.

[Drew Wiley]

Sorry, Kirk ... I posted at the same time, and you already pre-answered one of my questions. Hope to get back to that part of the world sometime for more canyon backpacking, but it's been awhile. Per neanderthals - I once got my hands on a skullcap
from a dry cave in Spain - apparently a ritual or possibly ritual or cannibalistic kill of a
teenage girl (but no mistaking those Neanderthal brows!). The skin and hair were still there. Long silky blonde, neatly cut with a stone knife. The person who found that priceless artifact was actually bribed by some key museum people to keep it out of circulation. That was back when Neanderthals were routinely depicted in dioramas and books as stupid half-gorillas, and even Piltdown man was illustrated in the Smithsonian
brochure. I was pretty young, but was already invited onto field trip with various grad
students, sorta the kid mascot, I guess. Whatever happened to the skullcap in the long
run I have no idea. But one never forgets something like that, and no way it was a hoax.

[David Lobato]

The stair steps chopped up the side of a canyon headwall impressed me at Chaco. An archeologist told me the aboriginal population in SW Colorado was larger than current times. I grew up in the 4-corners area and know of more ruin sites than I can count. Btw, Mesa Verde in winter with fresh snow is absolutely sublime.

[Kirk Gittings]

Yes the population of what is called the Great Sage Plain in SW Colorado was much higher in the 1200-1300s than it is now. AAMOF I think it was the most densely populated area on the continent. It had a perfect rain/temp microclimate for corn/beans/squash compared to almost anywhere in the SW in that period. Archeologically that area (Canyons of the Ancients) average 8 sites per square mile with many huuuuuuge sites like Yellow Jacket, Sand Creek, Crow Canyon etc.

Drew I forget the PHds name who was so big on cannibalism at Chaco. He made some good investigations but is widely believed to have had blinders on and over stated his case and his findings. Having said that most archeologist I know agree with the basic premise that cannibalism associated with warfare (eating some part of your opponent gives you his power) and starvation cannibalism is pretty common and with a fair amount of widespread evidence in the SW. The NAs don't like this at all.

[Peter York]

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Corn-Cannibalism-Prehistoric-Southwest/dp/0874809681

I'm not sure if this is the only work on the subject, but it has stirred a lot of controversy.

[Kirk Gittings]

Yes that was the guy I was trying to remember. Christy G. Turner see the TV program http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0tOPxMN4c8.

As you can tell in this video, he is a bit obsessed with his research. When he visits sites that archeologist friends are working on he sees cannibalism everywhere and they think he is a bit loopy and exaggerating the evidence, but as I said above agree with the basic premise but they don't see the frequency in the archeological record that he does.

[Heroique]

Just to add some fun historical perspective – If one desires endless (and fascinating) lessons about widespread cannibalism among North American natives, one need only read Francis Parkman, the great 19th-C historian. His examples, of course, deal w/ Eastern 17th-C and 18th-C tribes – blood chilling for the reader, but presented, correctly I believe, as proud (and power-giving) achievements from the perspective of the natives. Often, his documentation comes through the first-hand reports of French Jesuit missionaries, whose journeys into the deep forests provided plenty of believable material to share about native life & culture – believable, even if their first objective was not to collect anthropological material like scientists. (I don’t recall Parkman discussing cannibalism due to famine, but it no doubt took place, even in Eastern forests of plenty.) An interesting counterpoint would be the journals of Lewis and Clark, capable (not trained) anthropologists of the Western tribes. Beyond the range of the Sioux, it’s difficult to imagine cannibalism among most of the early 19th-C tribes they met and studied – not even by the starving Shoshone (Snake) Indians.

The overall impression is, naturally, that cannabilism – whether to appease hunger or improve one’s warlike prowess – is highly dependent on cultural mores that change through time and space. The long life of Anasazi culture, one can only suspect, went through periods that both encouraged and discouraged it.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Coming late to this discussion with European eyes, I can mention a few things:
- I remember a very nice AAA road map named 'Indian Country', one of the few AAA maps with a lot of explanatory text. This was in the 1990s, so I have no idea of the availability of this map today.
- one of my best memories of this place, outside iconic places (but close to) is Utah scenic byway #12 connecting Capitol Reef to Bryce Canyon.

In the Alps, the more you climb, the less you find vegetation, eventually you only find bare rocks and glaciers above 3000m / 10000 feet. Few paved European roads climb as high as 10,000 feet, but some places like Col de l'Iseran will give you an idea of this "basic principle" of Alpine geography that all Europeans learn at school.
Along Utah road #12, you'll find exactly the opposite, the road gradually climbs from places where you hardly see anything but bare slabs of rocks --at least as seen from Western European eyes ;) -- , and as you climb, you gradually find more and more vegetation, trees, and wild flowers ; I do not know how road conditions can be in May, but at Bryce Canyon and Cedar Breaks snow can stay late in the season.
Never been to Utah road#12 in May, unfortunately.
Finding flowers and moisture at high elevations is something I was not expecting to see in summer, driving to the North Rim of Grand Canyon.
So I'm sure that this experience can be lived in May in many places of Indian Coutry, at least at higher elevations.

To mention nice walking tours of about 2-3 hours, I can recommend walking from Capitol Reef visitor's center, again for a European, this is an amazing picturesque place. And also, when you visit the farm-museum with apricot trees, you can get a feeling of what the Pionneers did to live in this remote and dry country ... and of course how the Indians lived. At Navajo National Monument you have a nice botanical footpath leading to an overview to the sacred ruin under its magnificent red arch, explaining all about plants used by Indians in their day to day life.

When I was there, one summer, we followed a family on holidays. Everybody seemed to be very impressed by the scenery and the evokation of Indian Life. The father carefefully read the explanations posted along the footpath and explained solemnly to the children about plants and Indian life. The children listened silently, like at church. One of my best memory, indeed, yes the place has been inhabited since ... 20,000 years probably ?

[DavidFisk]

Coming late to this discussion with European eyes, I can mention a few things:
- I remember a very nice AAA road map named 'Indian Country', one of the few AAA maps with a lot of explanatory text. This was in the 1990s, so I have no idea of the availability of this map today.
- one of my best memories of this place, outside iconic places (but close to) is Utah scenic byway #12 connecting Capitol Reef to Bryce Canyon.

In the Alps, the more you climb, the less you find vegetation, eventually you only find bare rocks and glaciers above 3000m / 10000 feet. Few paved European roads climb as high as 10,000 feet, but some places like Col de l'Iseran will give you an idea of this "basic principle" of Alpine geography that all Europeans learn at school.
Along Utah road #12, you'll find exactly the opposite, the road gradually climbs from places where you hardly see anything but bare slabs of rocks --at least as seen from Western European eyes ;) -- , and as you climb, you gradually find more and more vegetation, trees, and wild flowers ; I do not know how road conditions can be in May, but at Bryce Canyon and Cedar Breaks snow can stay late in the season.
Never been to Utah road#12 in May, unfortunately.
Finding flowers and moisture at high elevations is something I was not expecting to see in summer, driving to the North Rim of Grand Canyon.
So I'm sure that this experience can be lived in May in many places of Indian Coutry, at least at higher elevations.

To mention nice walking tours of about 2-3 hours, I can recommend walking from Capitol Reef visitor's center, again for a European, this is an amazing picturesque place. And also, when you visit the farm-museum with apricot trees, you can get a feeling of what the Pionneers did to live in this remote and dry country ... and of course how the Indians lived. At Navajo National Monument you have a nice botanical footpath leading to an overview to the sacred ruin under its magnificent red arch, explaining all about plants used by Indians in their day to day life.

When I was there, one summer, we followed a family on holidays. Everybody seemed to be very impressed by the scenery and the evokation of Indian Life. The father carefefully read the explanations posted along the footpath and explained solemnly to the children about plants and Indian life. The children listened silently, like at church. One of my best memory, indeed, yes the place has been inhabited since ... 20,000 years probably ?

The Indian Country map is very much available at AAA offices. It's revised frequently. The most famous map the Auto Club ever made.

[Leszek Vogt]

Incidentally, it's also possible to obtain this map from Amazon. I'm thinking of going to the SW in appx a year and intend to digitize this map (photo stitching).
This way I can have all the interest points marked succinctly as a layer and have most of the distances jotted down in advance.

Kirk, I'm totally with you on the secret. Iconic imagery have been way overdone.

Les

[Drew Wiley]

(????) You seem to be making the same mistake as Columbus did, David. Do we have to start using the term, Amerind?

[Heroique]

“Places to see in Injun Country” would have prevented this tragic misunderstanding.

[largeformatguy]

(????) You seem to be making the same mistake as Columbus did, David. Do we have to start using the term, Amerind?


“Places to see in Injun Country” would have prevented this tragic misunderstanding.

You guys crack me up.:D

The response he gave sounds suspiciously like it came from a tourist brochure. The link is interesting if you want to go to where the real Indians are.

Alan

[Robert Langham]

Tentatively scheduling a trip back to Shiprock and Canyon de Chelly this Spring. One of the places I want to see is a corner of Shiprock that I have walked below but never climbed into. There's a little ledge system that angles up to the base of the White Tower on the Northwest side, really a struggle to get there. (I think. Might be a cakewalk) There's a little cleft that tucks into the North side of the White Tower. I can see it on some aerial photos. Spent a lot of nights right around the corner on the big ledge at the climber's cave under the other side of the White Tower. I've got to see if I can get around there. Not even the rock climbers go in that area. Hope to come off over the North Buttress saddle and descend to the volcanic neck below on the East side. It wouldn't be too bad with just a couple of water bottles and an iphone, but I'm thinking of taking my 5X7 and tripod up there in the F64 backpack. That's going to be a hump. Might be another iconic rockform in there and it's the only place around the base of Shiprock where I really haven't been. If you haven't ever walked completely around Shiprock, it takes a couple of hours, is rough but really gives you a sense of the size and complexity of the place.

92362 Climber's ledge.