Who Has the Gowlandflex 8x10??

[Fragomeni]

Does anyone know who actually owns the Gowlandflex 8x10 TLR? Any idea?

[John Conway]

I have always been curious about that myself. I have a Keith 4X5 twin lens camera. It is a joy to use. The Gowland twin lens cameras were great cameras. The 8X10 model is quite rare. Not exactly a point and shoot.I must say though, my Keith twin lens is very easy to use in the field.

[Jay DeFehr]

One of my kooky ideas is to build a portrait oriented 8x10 SLR with a beam splitter (non-moving) mirror and a FP shutter. Not very practical, but maybe possible.

[Ben Syverson]

Use a 5x7 pellicle, and use the lens shutter rather than a FP, and it might not be too hard!

[Jay DeFehr]

Use a 5x7 pellicle, and use the lens shutter rather than a FP, and it might not be too hard!

I don't see how a lens shutter could work. A beam splitter is a pellicle, right?

[Ben Syverson]

Yeah, a pellicle is the ideal type of beamsplitter for this, but they're quite fragile. Which is why a smaller version closer to the lens is probably a good idea.

Just flip the preview lever as usual, but you'll be using the view through the beam splitter. The film holder is already inserted. Then flip the preview lever back, pull the darkslide, and trip the shutter. It's basically like normal view camera procedure, but you can have the film holder inserted the whole time.

The 8x10 focal plane shutter could work too, but you'd probably have to custom design it.

[Tracy Storer]

A pellicle is a thin membrane that can be mirrored fully, partially, or not at all, a glass beam splitter will be far cheaper. Just don't forget to limit light sneaking back into the system through your viewfinder, Jay.

[Jay DeFehr]

I see. That makes sense-- a compromise solution. Yes, I was mulling over a FP shutter design based on small stepper motors. The concept is so simple, but the execution might be less than elegant, and it would require a power source. Another compromise. So it goes.:)

[Peter De Smidt]

I have always been curious about that myself. I have a Keith 4X5 twin lens camera. It is a joy to use. The Gowland twin lens cameras were great cameras. The 8X10 model is quite rare. Not exactly a point and shoot.I must say though, my Keith twin lens is very easy to use in the field.

I used to have one of these. Maybe you have the one I used to own. The Ilex lens was a very good performer.

[Oren Grad]

But... who has the Gowlandflex 8x10? Or a 5x7?

[Fragomeni]

Yes, who!?

[Frank Petronio]

Annie and some other filthy rich wannabees in NYC.

[Daniel Stone]

I heard something about Playboy *supposedly* using an 8x10 Gowlandflex, I don't know if that's true or not though...

Somehow I don't think they've shot 8x10 in years, probably even decades now... Maybe 4x5, but probably just MF chrome.

-Dan

[Frank Petronio]

Just build an 8x10 Sinar TLR

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[Michael_qrt]

Just build an 8x10 Sinar TLR

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Now that's a camera and a half...

[Armin Seeholzer]

But Frank this is only a 4x5 not an 8x10!

Cheers Armin

[John Conway]

I used to have one of these. Maybe you have the one I used to own. The Ilex lens was a very good performer.

Yes Peter, the Ilex paragon 215 6.3 is a nice lens, great softness outside the sharp center (I think its called bokeh) she is getting a little sluggish at the slow speeds. I am about to get it serviced. I think they (keith), made a 5x7 as well, but that camera is more of a mystery than a 8X10 Gowlandflex.

[John Conway]

Now that's a camera and a half...
The only thing better than a Sinar Norma , is a Norma TLR.

[Frank Petronio]

But Frank this is only a 4x5 not an 8x10!

Cheers Armin

But there is no reason why you couldn't assemble an 8x10 in the same manner....

[prado333]

Mark Laita has one.

[Fragomeni]

I sent Mark a brief email to confirm if he has one and to see if he'd be willing to send over a few images that I could share with everyone. I'll follow up with what I hear back.

[Frank Petronio]

Did you see today's ad in the classifieds for... an 8x10 Gowlandflex? Let us know how much and how it looks, I do not know the seller so all the cautions apply.

[Fragomeni]

I've contacted the seller so we'll see where this goes. I want to be optimistic but I have a hard time believing that one of these has popped up for sale.

[Fragomeni]

Well this actually might be real. I tracked the seller's website from the email address listed and the website had a phone number which I just called. I spoke with the seller at length about the camera and he is sending me some images of it taken with his iphone followed by better images tomorrow.

The is the seller's website: http://www.scottdunbarproductions.com/

[Fragomeni]

By the way, i get the feeling this might be Mark Laita's camera. When speaking to the seller, he mentioned that he was selling it for an LA photographer and the name Mark slipped out. I sent Laita an email just a couple days ago asking about the camera and then up pops this for sale ad. Hmm...

[Daniel Stone]

Just and FYI about Scott, the seller of the 8x10 gowlandflex. I purchased my drums and mounting station from him late last year, and he was totally cool.

Dan

[Frank Petronio]

I talked to him too and it's the real deal, just gotta come up with the cash. You may want to move quickly because thanks to your thread, any other tog who wants one may compete with you for it (I am not, it is expensive).

[Fragomeni]

Its too expensive for me as well. I've shared it with some collector friends who may be interested and when he sends me the pictures thats who I'll be passing the images along to. Its a rare camera but they aren't hugely collectible in their own right and i think the price tag is too high even if it is an 8x10.

[Darren Kruger]

Rayko in San Francisco, CA has a 8x10 Gowlandflex one on their display wall.

[Frank Petronio]

I wonder how it really is to use? It would be very difficult to handhold, unlike the 4x5. On a tripod the TLR viewing would be nice but you may have to be on a ladder for some shots.

With my middle-aged nearsightedness I find that I now prefer the absolute certainty that I get from focusing with a loupe on the GG, then watching my subjects for movement while closing the lens and inserting the holder, pulling the slide. Then I think I get better control and expression by making face contact with my head near the camera.

My Rollei shots are different, partially because the camera forces me into a lower position and the subjects are looking at my silly bent-over, top-of-my-bald-head. I like using a TLR, but the results are different.

[Oren Grad]

It would be very difficult to handhold, unlike the 4x5.

The caption under the goofy picture at the bottom of Gowland's camera web page says 35 lbs. I don't think he was joking about that.

[bbjorkum]

Graflex made a 8x10 SLR ...

[jnantz]

times like this, i wish i was rich !

[Fragomeni]

You and me both!

Still no pictures from the seller by the way...

[Frank Petronio]

He sent me photos

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I have no interest, but out of curiosity what is the selling price?

[Roger Thoms]

I have no interest, but out of curiosity what is the selling price?

Look here. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?88102-FS-8x10-Gowlandflex-with-schneider-multicoat-360mm-lenses&highlight=Gowland

Roger

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Thanks, its about what I would have expected.

[BarryS]

I think I'm going to be ill. I passed up one selling for $400. :eek:

[Fragomeni]

I just received images of the beast! It's really nice to finally see one but I think I'll pass at this price. Rare and collectible are two different things and I know they've sold for considerably less in the past.


I think I'm going to be ill. I passed up one selling for $400.
An 8x10 Gowlandflex for $400? Yea, you're definitely a little crazy for passing that up :/

[Oren Grad]

I think I'm going to be ill. I passed up one selling for $400. :eek:

The 4x5's are uncommon but not rare; one in good working order including matched lenses can be had for less than $1000, sometimes a lot less. It's the 8x10 that's unobtainium. But it's anybody's guess as to whether they can actually find a buyer at anywhere near that price if they put it up on eBay.

[BarryS]

Honestly, it didn't look particularly usable as a working camera to me and I had no idea of the value.

[Oren Grad]

Honestly, it didn't look particularly usable as a working camera to me and I had no idea of the value.

Yikes - so it was really an 8x10 that you passed up? :eek:

[Sevo]

The 4x5's are uncommon but not rare; one in good working order including matched lenses can be had for less than $1000, sometimes a lot less.

Agreed. The fairly similar Cambo mugshot TLRs (which don't look quite as sexy but which were more heavy duty and fit components from a fully grown camera system) have often had a hard time selling on ebay if the price was considerably above the value of the lenses...

[Fragomeni]

Ebay can be a great place for reaching buyers who are willing to pay a premium.

I've shared the information with some collector friends who love this kind of stuff. Whether it will sell at this price or not is to be seen but those who I spoke with weren't tripping over themselves at the current price.

Once they get it up on ebay, the thing might fetch even more then they're asking, who knows!

[Oren Grad]

Honestly, it didn't look particularly usable as a working camera to me and I had no idea of the value.

Seriously, though, it's so unwieldy that it is pretty useless as a general-purpose camera. Either you really want one because you happen to need its peculiar set of features, or there's no point.

[Lynn Jones]

Since Peter is no longer with us to ask. However, my long time friend Ed Meyers invented the 8x10 Smashelblad SLR, perhaps he could tell us about that one.

Lynn

[Fragomeni]

What is this Smashelblad you speak of?? :)

[Dan Fromm]

Its lenses are magicbulletars and bullshitars.

[Fragomeni]

So did anyone buy this thing?

[Oren Grad]

So did anyone buy this thing?

The one with the parallax correction disabled is on the 'Bay right now, with 2 1/2 hours to go and the reserve not yet met.

[JosephBurke]

Well, I was bidding too. It didn't go very high--I'm surprised at that! The 4x5 version also ran/ended poorly.

[Fragomeni]

In regard to the 8x10, there is a big difference between something being rare vs something highly collectible. When I spoke to the seller I was surprised to hear how high they had it priced (around $7K). I was interested in the camera but certainly not at any price like that. I forward notice of its sale on to a number of collector friends all of whom waved off the price as extremely high. I wonder if they'll reevaluate their thinking.

[Fragomeni]

The sellers I mean.

[Frank Petronio]

I had the impression that the 8x10 Gowlandlfex would be quite expensive but finding a ready buyer is the hard part. To just try to sell it outright in a week he might be doing well to get the $1000 bid he received, it will be a long time before anyone meets his $8K asking price. Perhaps a nouveau-riche Chinese collector will come along?

[Oren Grad]

Too klunky to appeal to collectors, I think. And it's so unwieldy that its use-value is really narrowly restricted to a certain type of studio work. So unless they can find another pro who has an idea of how to monetize it, the price is likely to be set by amateurs who don't have a lot to spend and have gotten used to a very soft market.

[Fragomeni]

I had the impression that the 8x10 Gowlandlfex would be quite expensive
That was my initial expectation as well but when I spoke with people who had either purchased one of these or had access to one for sale through private sale in the somewhat recent past the consensus was that they never went for much more then the price this auction ended at and this one isn't even a complete camera without the parallax correction bar which is actually a pretty important piece that determines a lot of the cameras value so I'm told.


Too klunky to appeal to collectors, I think. And it's so unwieldy that its use-value is really narrowly restricted to a certain type of studio work. So unless they can find another pro who has an idea of how to monetize it, the price is likely to be set by amateurs who don't have a lot to spend and have gotten used to a very soft market.
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[Frank Petronio]

Years ago I think somebody posted somewhere that Annie Leibovitz paid $10K for an 8x10 Gowlandflex and that may or may not be true, but it sounds like something a rich pretentious fashion photographer would do.

I've done a lot of 4x5 handheld shooting as well as used Rolleis for years and I'm not convinced that a large format TLR would be very advantageous. Physically I doubt anyone could manage critical focus holding it, and once it goes onto a stand then what is the point? I don't think you're going to "follow focus" any better than if you focus on the ground glass and pay attention to your subject.

However, this photo on Glennview got me excited ;-p

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Maybe with a lot of practice you could make it work for you. But 8x10 would be so expensive to "practice" with.

[Oren Grad]

...and this one isn't even a complete camera without the parallax correction bar which is actually a pretty important piece that determines a lot of the cameras value so I'm told.

Yes. Also, in both the 4x5 and 8x10 listings, it looks as though the taking and viewing lenses are not identical. Having the same marked focal length doesn't assure having the same actual focal length, which is what you want if you're going to use one as the focusing analog for the other. Maybe they're so close as to make no practical difference - but there's no way to tell the identity of the viewing lenses from the listing, so there's no way to look up the specifications to check. That would be worth a question to the seller if it goes up again. In any case, it's yet another reason to balk at paying a premium price.

[Oren Grad]

I've done a lot of 4x5 handheld shooting as well as used Rolleis for years and I'm not convinced that a large format TLR would be very advantageous. Physically I doubt anyone could manage critical focus holding it, and once it goes onto a stand then what is the point?

The 8x10 weighs something like 30 pounds - so much for hand-holding at all, let along focusing critically.

The point is to be able to see the subject at the moment of exposure. As it stands, their target buyer is the person who's willing to pay a $6000+ premium for that. So does that person exist?

[Frank Petronio]

I understand and have tried all kinds of schemes to make that happen or to reduce the time lag between focus and exposure - Graflex SLRs, Sinar auto-stop down cables to the shutter than activate when you slide the holder in place, the string focus method, the slide projector method, the put them in a corner brace method, etc. It might be nicer with this in 8x10 if you could keep the focusing screen in your field of vision while manipulating the focusing knob but I am not sure if you wouldn't need to be 8' tall and have 5' arms.

It's also one thing to focus on their eyes and concentrate on that versus moderating and catching the expression of the entire face/gesture. My brain and eyes can't do both concurrently, so the old standard focus then moderate works the best so far....

[Oren Grad]

It might be nicer with this in 8x10 if you could keep the focusing screen in your field of vision while manipulating the focusing knob but I am not sure if you wouldn't need to be 8' tall and have 5' arms.

Yeah... Notice that the listing doesn't show the usual Gowland chimney hood.

The double-decker Sinar at least doesn't have that problem.

[Daniel Unkefer]

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I have this setup. All you need are four Norma Extension Riser Rods. These are normally dark red in color, with metric rulings, if they are the original Norma ones. Then, one Norma above, one below.

[Frank Petronio]

I've only seen those rods offered for sale once and wish I bought them preemptively. Have you shot with it in that configuration? How did you like it?

[Oren Grad]

I have this setup. All you need are four Norma Extension Riser Rods. These are normally dark red in color, with metric rulings, if they are the original Norma ones. Then, one Norma above, one below.

Very cool... How rigid are the extension risers? How well do they maintain exact alignment - and thus focus agreement - between the respective front and rear standards?

[Frank Petronio]

I wonder if you might have to shim one of the lensboards to get both lenses into agreement?

[Sevo]

I wonder if you might have to shim one of the lensboards to get both lenses into agreement?

Perhaps, in real life. But that would either mean that the camera is not sufficiently parallel, or that the lenses differ in focal length. If you want to use the camera across a wide range of focal distances, you would have to address either issue at the root, shims will only keep it within tolerances for one range. For a portrait camera, you might choose not to bother. The original factory lenses on my Cambo were mismatched by more than 2mm (@180mm FL), and presumably compensated by shimming - making its twin-lens finder useless for landscape use, but the police seem to have been happy using it for some 20 years of mugshots.

[Dan Dozer]

About a year ago, I got to see and play a little with the 4 x 5 Gowlandflex that Hugo Zhang has - quite an interesting camera. I believe it has a strap that you can hang around your neck so in a sense it is hand held. He was looking for an 8 x 10 as well, but I couldn't image using that large of a camera around your neck. He said that it weights something like 50 pounds and that Gowland only made few of them. If you're really interested in one, you might want to contact Hugo and talk to him about it.

[2014268]

Yes i have the gowlandflex 4x5 (180mm and 270mm versions) and 8x10.
Any info you need?
Boon

[Tin Can]

Yes. I have a 4x5 version.

Any idea how many of each was made?

Also right from Peter's website the option list showed more lens variation that your two 4x5. I have the optional 210mm lens version.


Yes i have the gowlandflex 4x5 (180mm and 270mm versions) and 8x10.
Any info you need?
Boon

[Oren Grad]

Tangential discussion about building a TLR has been spun off to its own thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?130576-Should-I-build-a-LF-TLR-What-would-it-take