Kodak discontinues three colour reversal films

[toyotadesigner]

Sad news:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2156493/kodak-discontinues-colour-reversal-films

[Brian C. Miller]

The other tears-in-beer thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?87838-Kodak-discontinue-E6-films)

I suppose I'd better get down to Glazers and get some more 8x10 before it's gone. Crud.

[Drew Wiley]

This means the last sheet chrome film remaining in mfg on polyester base is Velvia 100F.
I sure don't understand why Provia is still made on triacetate unless it's just to lower the
cost. Sad to see E100G gone, but then I'll be gone too long before even a fraction of the
chrome shots I've already got can be printed. Cibachrome gone too. Them was the good ole days. Acetate base is miserable to register, though I've done it plenty of times. But I'm itching to move on anyway. Color neg printing and dye transfer from chromes is my future
until something like arthritis shuts me down. All those prints will probably give some dumpster diver an interesting time once I croak.

[Tim Povlick]

I am a tad confused. In reading the BJP post Kodak seems to say no more E6 film. The headline implies there are E6 films remaining in the line up. If this is not the case the headline should have been "Kodak Discontinues Remaining Color Reversal Films" with spelling correction [ :-) ] it would seem.

Mr. T-Designer - A while back you were kind enough to mention Ilford B&W film. I tried them before but your posted motivated me to try again. Wow! Marvelous stuff, especially in FA-1027 developer from Photographers Formulary. When yellow boxes are gone, switching to white boxes.


Best Regards,

Tim

[dave_whatever]

This means the last sheet chrome film remaining in mfg on polyester base is Velvia 100F.
I sure don't understand why Provia is still made on triacetate unless it's just to lower the
cost.

If you can indulge me Drew, whats the difference in practical terms? I know nothing of these matters.

[toyotadesigner]

Tim, in color you can still switch to green boxes.

Good to read that you like Ilford films!

If you want to experience an extremely fine grain b&w film for some experiments, you might try this one, which will give you a resolving power of an 8x10 in medium format:

Adox CMS 20

http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Filme/Premium%20Line%20Films/ADOX_CMS_Filme/ADOX_CMS_Filme/ADOX_CMS_Filme_Bildbbsp.html

[Drew Wiley]

Dave - maybe no big deal for scanning, but dimensional stablity is crucial for traditional color processes where things like silver masks and color separations negs must be aligned. Acetate changes with humidity, then shrinks overall over time. Polyester (Kodak Estar) base is very dimensionally stable. This is true in any graphic arts application using punch
and register systems. Roll film is the worst because it's flimsy and as far as I know, in color
at least, always on thin acetate. E100G sheet film is wonderful to work with, just like the
new Portra and Ektar sheet films. Fuji Astia 100F and Velvia 100F are also made on polyester base, as are most black and white sheet films. It tougher and stiffer as well as
dimensionally stable.

[drew.saunders]

I picked up a readyload box of E100VS a few years ago, I think it has an early '09 expiration date, and it's been frozen ever since. I haven't shot any color reversal films since late '08, after having shot many rolls of it in 35mm and 120 as well as one or two boxes of readyload over the years, so I'm not surprised by this announcement. Still, instead of hoarding it or maybe trying to make a few bucks (unless someone out there has a project for which they're desperate for 20 more sheets of the stuff), I think I'll take advantage of what should be a good wildflower season and burn through it this spring, to give the stuff a proper fond farewell (also, while I can still get it processed somewhat locally). I really did like E100VS much more than Velvia.

[dave_whatever]

Dave - maybe no big deal for scanning, but dimensional stablity is crucial for traditional color processes where things like silver masks and color separations negs must be aligned. Acetate changes with humidity, then shrinks overall over time. Polyester (Kodak Estar) base is very dimensionally stable. This is true in any graphic arts application using punch
and register systems. Roll film is the worst because it's flimsy and as far as I know, in color
at least, always on thin acetate. E100G sheet film is wonderful to work with, just like the
new Portra and Ektar sheet films. Fuji Astia 100F and Velvia 100F are also made on polyester base, as are most black and white sheet films. It tougher and stiffer as well as
dimensionally stable.

Nice one, thanks for the explanation. I can see why that would be a big deal for that kind of work.

[John Kasaian]

Is this bizarre or what?
Kodak claims to be going back to it's roots with film, yet discontinues well estab lished emulsions which have little of no competition? Have they been doing R&D and have other color films in the wings? Digital is thoroughly entrenched in the old 35mm snapshot market so I don't see where this move is going with Kodak. But then again I don't understand much of what is going on with Kodak.

[vinny]

Is this bizarre or what?
Kodak claims to be going back to it's roots with film, yet discontinues well estab lished emulsions which have little of no competition? Have they been doing R&D and have other color films in the wings? Digital is thoroughly entrenched in the old 35mm snapshot market so I don't see where this move is going with Kodak. But then again I don't understand much of what is going on with Kodak.

"Kodak claims to be going back to it's roots with film"
is that something you read online? what a joke!
roots like pulling all 8x10 b+w film from stores roots, or the last round of discontinued products roots?

hey, it's not all their fault, fauxtographers are the ones who aren't buying film.

[Lachlan 717]

Why don't they/didn't they try to divest this aspect of the business?

Removing it seems to be yet another dickhead decision by their management. Surely it's a potential asset, even if they only get a few mill for it.

[Ben Syverson]

I don't think reversal film has been profitable for some time now... Who would they sell it to?

[Roger Cole]

Is this bizarre or what?
Kodak claims to be going back to it's roots with film, yet discontinues well estab lished emulsions which have little of no competition? Have they been doing R&D and have other color films in the wings? Digital is thoroughly entrenched in the old 35mm snapshot market so I don't see where this move is going with Kodak. But then again I don't understand much of what is going on with Kodak.

No competition? Ever heard of Fuji?

Ok, I liked E100VS better than Velvia, but preferred Astia to E100G, though I learned to like E100G almost as much. Provia is a decent compromise if I want to shoot E6, but it's too contrasty for many subjects.

Figures, my favorite, Astia, was the first to get canceled, then in one fell swoop my replacement for that AND my pick for highly saturated film goes.

Glad I'm mostly into black and white with some color neg and mostly only shoot E6 to use up film I got bargains on along with something else.

[Drew Wiley]

There was probably just no way for Kodak to compete with Fuji in this category without subsidizing it at a net loss. Same reason Fuji killed Astia - it was a great film if you understood what its range fo applications, but few people did. Most just want saturation.
E100G was the best and last of Kodak's offerings, but cannot realistically stand on its own
in terms of overhead. But color neg film is a different subject, and one in which Kodak still
realistically dominates. With Ciba having diminished significantly in recent years, and now
itself cancelled, and with scanners and neg film becoming more and more compatible, a
full shift to color neg film just makes sense for them. C-style papers still have a huge market, though it's hard to say how long the minilab snapshot side of that will hold up.
Getting a chrome look from neg film is a whole different story and it's been fun learning
the ropes and boundaries.

[Brian Ellis]

Is this bizarre or what?
Kodak claims to be going back to it's roots with film, yet discontinues well estab lished emulsions which have little of no competition? Have they been doing R&D and have other color films in the wings? Digital is thoroughly entrenched in the old 35mm snapshot market so I don't see where this move is going with Kodak. But then again I don't understand much of what is going on with Kodak.

I read somewhere else that slide film sales have been less than 10% of Kodak's color film production in recent years. Hard to argue with dropping it if there isn't a better market than that. I'm frankly surprised its lasted as long as it has.

[Drew Wiley]

Since they can custom cut and package 8x10 now, they could always go back to it as a standard offering if there was sufficient demand. More likely, some large dealer will just place the min order and stock the 8x10
themselves, like B&H is doing right now, or we will have to make group orders like ULF shooters have been doing all along. No big deal with a bit
of planning. What is way more important is that Kodak succeeds at something in the film category, and it looks like they're betting on the right
horse. They can't be everything to everybody anymore.

[John Kasaian]

I get what you're saying Drew.
Kodak is probably going to have to be a very limited company!

[John NYC]

I don't think reversal film has been profitable for some time now... Who would they sell it to?

All the big auction houses in NYC and several major retailers shoot 8x10 chromes on a daily basis. Two large clients like this are what keeps one of my labs doing E6 LF processing. They have told me once those clients go away, they will stop doing 8x10 E6 processing. I am guessing that this announcement will begin the transition for those clients to look for other ways of getting the multiple format archive-ability they currently have. Doubt if any will choose Portra or some other neg film that can't be examined as-is without a scanner operator or printer doing an interpretation.

But yeah, no one else is shooting E6. So the profitability is probably zilch worldwide.

[aluncrockford]

There was a time in the not so dim and distant past that in the world of Advertising photography that every thing was shot on E6 film, I used to spend a horrendous amount of money on the stuff, then came the Phase one back and in essence that was the death of E6, in my area of London there were 5 large processing houses now there are two very small ones, one of which runs a E6 line, the art market uses neg and it is C41 and digital printing that is keeping them alive, as for E6 film, in the studio it could not be bettered and still the quality from 10x8 E6 film is infinitely better than any available digital product , though the endless wait for film, the colour tests , batch variations and sheer waste are not things that ever filled me with joy.

[vinny]

Now let's hope those of us who shoot E6 (and love it) can continue to get the chemicals to process it. I don't wanna have to cross process a chest freezer full of this stuff.

[WootSK]

I have been thinking that kodak is still not giving up on digital. It is true that sensor is a thing of the past with kodak, but they are not giving up on scanner. Personally i love e100vs as i don't belongs to those scan and post in facebook and flickr guys, i find the film having good dynamic range and color when developed well. But at the same time, it also means that standard flatbed scanner cannot really bring out how that film looks from a lightbox to the monitor screen. High end drum scan will require quite a number of post processing to allow the image to be close to what you see on the lightbox. I still feel sad the day when they stopped e100vs for sheet film till now.

I do hope they will still look from the pov of slides lover like me who prefer to look at sheet slides from a lightbox or 135 slides from a slide projector. Those magical days with chibachrome is amazing that i feel like crying seeing people printing slides from printer using scans...

[thrice]

Nooooooo not E100G :(

[Brian C. Miller]

I don't wanna have to cross process a chest freezer full of this stuff.

What, you don't want to be a cross-processing Lomographer? (Or would that be Lomogramite?)
According to EK, they'll still have chemicals, and it's not like there's a chemical shortage out there. But the real question is, will you have to process them yourself? Maybe so.


I do hope they will still look from the pov of slides lover like me who prefer to look at sheet slides from a lightbox or 135 slides from a slide projector. Those magical days with chibachrome is amazing that i feel like crying seeing people printing slides from printer using scans...

Today I'm going to pick up a box or two of 8x10 after work. I'm going to use some of the sheets to make light box installations, so others can see what's gone. It's really impossible to explain what's really on a sheet of film without showing it. Heck, I've had problems showing people the concept of negative and print! ("This is a print ... and this is a print?" Only one guy got the concept of negative and print the first time around.)

[jayabbas]

What, you don't want to be a cross-processing Lomographer? (Or would that be Lomogramite?)
According to EK, they'll still have chemicals, and it's not like there's a chemical shortage out there. But the real question is, will you have to process them yourself? Maybe so.



Today I'm going to pick up a box or two of 8x10 after work. I'm going to use some of the sheets to make light box installations, so others can see what's gone. It's really impossible to explain what's really on a sheet of film without showing it. Heck, I've had problems showing people the concept of negative and print! ("This is a print ... and this is a print?" Only one guy got the concept of negative and print the first time around.)

[vinny]

I do process my e6 myself. No more e6 film, no demand for the chemicals. I'm not a chemist and I actually did very poorly in chemistry in high school. What worries me is a lack of demand for the chemicals once the film isn't available. Hopefully fuji stays in the game since I've probably got enough film for another 20 years.

[Roger Cole]

I'm tempted to pick up some in 35mm. In 120 and sheets I don't see much need. I'd rather stock up on discontinued but still readily available Astia than discontinued but still readily available E100G. I like E100VS slightly better than Velvia but not so much so that I want to stock up on it when Velvia is still being made, for now.

Heck, I don't really even like shooting transparencies except for projection in 35mm anyway! But this is still making me think about stocking up. Weird days, these. I'd be more inclined to stock up if the stuff wasn't so expensive (mostly in 35mm) relative to both color neg and black and white.

[Drew Wiley]

In color I'm shooting mostly negs these days, and just a little chrome if I think the image
might be suitable for dye transfer printing (very very few shots will get to that point).
In fact, in a few minutes I have to pick up both C-41 and E-6 8X10 at the lab. It's getting
so difficult to get processing these days that I have to drive four blocks away. I used to
walk just a block and a half.

[jayabbas]

You got it made. Just hit the gym for that extra 2 -1/2 block stretch. Out here in Az the lab is over the horizon almost.

[WootSK]

Now let's hope those of us who shoot E6 (and love it) can continue to get the chemicals to process it. I don't wanna have to cross process a chest freezer full of this stuff.

Time to clear some of the stuff from your freezer.
If you have e100vs 4x5 or the e100vs 8x10 custom produced from kodak, can give me a pm. I will take it if price is resonable. :)

[Brian C. Miller]

I was just down at Glazer's, and guess what? A hoarder out of New York city bought all the 8x10 E100G!!! They said he was buying all the E100G in the US. I got the last two boxes of E100VS (No, Woot, I'm not sharing!), and that looks like that's it for 8x10 color film in Seattle. It's all gone.

But they do have a decent amount of Tri-X, and also one box each of 7x17 (Ilford FP4?) and 14x17 (TMax 400). There were some really big yellow boxes of Kodak in the back of the fridge, but I didn't ask about those.

[Daniel Stone]

Hmmm... looks like B+H has raised the price of E100G in 8x10 to $132.99... wasn't it just $20 cheaper? I'm glad I stocked up late last year now...

-Dan

[Daniel Stone]

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUpnE-fKF4

-Dan

[John NYC]

I was just down at Glazer's, and guess what? A hoarder out of New York city bought all the 8x10 E100G!!! They said he was buying all the E100G in the US. I got the last two boxes of E100VS (No, Woot, I'm not sharing!), and that looks like that's it for 8x10 color film in Seattle. It's all gone.

But they do have a decent amount of Tri-X, and also one box each of 7x17 (Ilford FP4?) and 14x17 (TMax 400). There were some really big yellow boxes of Kodak in the back of the fridge, but I didn't ask about those.

I would guess that "hoarder" is simply one of the big high end retailers or auction houses that still shoot chromes of products on a DAILY, yes daily, basis. So if so can you really blame them?

[Daniel Stone]

If they can order up all the extra stock, you'd think they could swing getting a double-size custom run done, that way it'd all be the same emulsion # ;)

oh well, it'd be nice to see E100G stand alone as the remaining Ektachrome. Alas Fuji will get my money once my stash runs out(which probably won't be for a while at my current consumption rate :o(extremely low in 8x10, 2-3x that in 4x5))

-Dan

[David Callard]

It looks to me like Kodak is pretty near dead. Unbelievable yes, but the writing is on the wall. I doubt whether they can survive on printers alone, when so many others are already well established in the field. Kodak is a classic case of a company failing to move with the times and now incredibly they have sold the only assets that might have saved them. I have wondered whether some entrepreneurial Chinese company might feed off the entrails and pickup some of the pieces - who knows? Anyway, it seems like we will be left with Fuji materials only for which we should be duly thankful, at least as long as they last. Does anybody have any ideas on Fuji's likely continuing film manufacture, especially of colour reversal materials? I am sadly considering whether it might be time to give in and sell all my film gear from 35 through MF to 4x5.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Man... all this chatter is making want to stock up and freeze enough film to last the rest of my remaining years and then buy all the raw chemistry to make my own C-41 from scratch... enough to process all that film. Now... where the heck did I lay that 50 pound bag of 100 dollar bills??

[Brian C. Miller]

Does anybody have any ideas on Fuji's likely continuing film manufacture, especially of colour reversal materials? I am sadly considering whether it might be time to give in and sell all my film gear from 35 through MF to 4x5.

Fuji now has a monopoly on reversal films. Whether that amounts to anything, I have no idea. E6 was about 1% of Kodak's film business, and that may be a similar market share for Fuji. Personally, I can't afford the digital stuff that performs close to what I can get with film. And then, of course, next year's equipment is going to be better.


Man... all this chatter is making want to stock up and freeze enough film to last the rest of my remaining years and then buy all the raw chemistry to make my own C-41 from scratch... enough to process all that film. Now... where the heck did I lay that 50 pound bag of 100 dollar bills??

My freezer is too small for that. I have to make do with what I can get through the market today. And your bag of money was buried in that weedy lot that got dug up for that strip mall development project. No, the construction crew didn't get it because the earth mover stripped off the top six feet at one go. It's probably fill dirt someplace, now.

One of the problems with the "use it or lose it" advocacy is that everybody who would use it, has been using it, and there just aren't enough to use it to make it worth a company's investment. How many master rolls of E6 did Kodak coat per year before they discontinued it? If the volume dropped below one per year, then that's what the manufacturer has to look at.

[Old-N-Feeble]

^^^ All good points... and all the more reason to "panic", buy a big deep freeze, buy tons of film and plenty of raw chemistry to develop it all.

[Noah A]

I mostly shoot Color negative films (and have a freezer-full of Portra 160!). But I had a 10-sheet box of E100G I was going to test for an upcoming project. I hadn't shot 4x5 chromes since college and haven't shot any E6 for a few years.

Since it's now a dead-end and I figure it's stilly to start a project with it, I used the film for some lens comparison tests.

I got it back from the lab today and while my pictures are rather pedestrian tests, damn, it's a nice film! I'm drum scanning it now and the detail previews looked amazing. It seems to scan well (and easily) and looking at the 4x5 chromes is definitely more pleasing than looking at orange negs.

I'm sorry to see it go, and sorry I didn't shoot more of it when it was around. I'll be sticking to negs for most of my work regardless, but I do hope Fuji sticks around and continues to make E6 film an option for those who want it.

[Drew Wiley]

Fuji has been top dog in the chrome business for quite awhile already, and now they'll have
a monopoly. So that will probably offset any erosion to digital for awhile at least. No sense panicking. I'm more disturbed by the loss of Cibachrome as a means of printing chromes,
but saw that coming from way back, so have been shooting parallel for awhile, with a
gradual complete shift to color neg. I still hope to do some dye transfer printing, so might
shoot an 8x10 E100G sheet from time to time. My freezer supply should keep me going just
about as long as it keeps me supplied with dye transfer film. But I'm slowly getting to be obsolete myself.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Well... let's hope for the best. After all, didn't Adobe buy Macromedia which gave them a complete monopoly in digital graphics? Hasn't that combined team continued to refine and improve their products? Let's all just... hope... that FUJI CONTINUES TO IMPROVE reversal films... and that KODAK has REAL PLANS AND VISION for negative films.

[Brian C. Miller]

The best that I hope for is that Fuji and Kodak simply keep producing film.

However, I have no doubt that Fuji is simply running the machines for what sells, and that's it. Same with Kodak. Reading what has been posted on APUG about how Kodak really makes film, and that their smaller machines were scrapped out years ago, I really don't know how long Kodak will produce film at all once the theaters go to all-digital distribution. What will Fuji keep producing? It's not like they have a big line-up of color negative film at all, just Reala and Pro 400H. For E6 they have Provia and Velvia, Astia being discontinued and all that's remaining is what's on the shelf. Kodak has Ektar and Portra in three speeds, and no E6.

Fuji may be all that's left for color film, as they were never as big as Kodak, so they never optimized for gargantuan global production. Fuji makes E6 and B&W sheet film, and that's it. If Kodak went under completely due to practically no demand for any color negative film, then I would not expect Fuji to coat C41 on sheet film. That takes significant R&D, and the investment would never be returned by market demand. We will be stuck with 6x12 and 6x17 backs.

It doesn't matter how grand your plans and visions are when there's not enough market demand to sustain producing the product. E100G is/was a really great product. But that doesn't matter when you can't sell even one master roll's worth in a year, for the entire world.

[Tobias Key]

The best that I hope for is that Fuji and Kodak simply keep producing film.



Fuji may be all that's left for color film, as they were never as big as Kodak, so they never optimized for gargantuan global production. Fuji makes E6 and B&W sheet film, and that's it. If Kodak went under completely due to practically no demand for any color negative film, then I would not expect Fuji to coat C41 on sheet film. That takes significant R&D, and the investment would never be returned by market demand. We will be stuck with 6x12 and 6x17 backs.



Brian Fuji already makes 160NS in 4x5, I bought some only last month, they just don't export it to the US. It's readily available in Europe.

[SergeiR]

Brian Fuji already makes 160NS in 4x5, I bought some only last month, they just don't export it to the US. It's readily available in Europe.
"already"? I have some Fuji 4x5 C41 that expired 24 years ago :)

[sully75]

Brian Fuji already makes 160NS in 4x5, I bought some only last month, they just don't export it to the US. It's readily available in Europe.

Yeah I don't get that. I've seen pictures done on Fuji negative that looked just as nice (in a different way but similar quality) as stuff done on Portra. Seems like they could move a good bit of 4x5 film here.

[Drew Wiley]

Brian, one very important fact that you're overlooking is that both EK and Fuji are still very
much in competition for the RA4 paper market, along with a couple of other players. How
would that be helped if there were no companion films? There is still a lot of conventional
enlargement from color negs going on around the world, and even the alternative (scanning
from either chromes or negs, then onto something like Lightjet) requires a film image to start with. Some dumb things might have been done in the past, but I don't see any way
thery're going to be that dumb. Direct digital capture is probably going mostly to inkjet rather than to chromogenic paper. So what's the point in all that paper still being made if there's no film to go with it?