New 55.... just can't wait

[John Conway]

I was just over there on the 55 site . Since I am so anxious for the New 55 film to hit the shelves, I check out the site all the time in hope of some good news. My tent and sleeping bag are ready. When they announce the release I'll be waiting at the door of the store the day it hits the shelves. When I look at those sample images I see something very special, different from the original 55, and something unique that I really like. I think I like it better . What I don't understand is why so much work is needed to get it all together and work in a 500 series holder. The Land design has been around for a long time. I guess I just need to be patient.

[Peter Gomena]

They've not had the advantage of the Land patents, research, formulas, and machines. They've had to re-invent the wheel. That takes a while.

Peter Gomena

[MIke Sherck]

Knowing how something is done and being able to repeat the process, without failure, in commercial quantities, are entirely separate problems. Many products have been invented but never marketed either because they couldn't be made economically or couldn't be made reliably.

Mike

[Joe Smigiel]

Could someone post a link to the site? Thanks.

[rdenney]

Could someone post a link to the site? Thanks.

http://new55project.blogspot.com/

Rick "found in five seconds of Googling" Denney

[SpeedGraphicMan]

If they can sell it for less than $20 a pack... I will jump onboard.

[John Conway]

They've not had the advantage of the Land patents, research, formulas, and machines. They've had to re-invent the wheel. That takes a while.

Peter Gomena
That is what puzzles me. Is there a reason why the patents can't be obtained? As far as the formulas, although this is a different film, the original formulas would certainly help with the new process. And then the machines, where ever they are,could possibly be purchased. I have been to many factory auctions and the stuff goes cheap.

[John Conway]

If they can sell it for less than $20 a pack... I will jump onboard.

Forget it. I'm sure they will keep the price down as much as they can. But thinking that it will be 20.00 a box is a pipe dream. We have gone through the numbers here before. When you figure what traditional film and processing costs per sheet, a hundred a box for twenty prints and twenty negatives is a reasonable price.

[Ben Syverson]

It's not easy to buy a patent from a private equity firm. At this stage, New 55 is a labor of love, not a hot startup with tons of cash... But it's moot, because the patents on 55 must have expired at this point.

I believe the machines were immediately dismantled for scrap. Impossible salvaged at least one of the 8x10 pod filling machines, but they couldn't get the 4x5 version. You have to remember that Polaroid failed slowly, closing plant after plant. I think what Impossible got came from one of the last operational plants. The others had already been liquidated.

Still, even if you had the original machines and formulas, it would still be an uphill battle to get a working product. It's not like baking a cake—instant emulsions are notoriously complex and temperamental.

[rdenney]

That is what puzzles me. Is there a reason why the patents can't be obtained? As far as the formulas, although this is a different film, the original formulas would certainly help with the new process. And then the machines, where ever they are,could possibly be purchased. I have been to many factory auctions and the stuff goes cheap.

They already have access to some old Polaroid guys. But many of the people who figured out these problems and built them into their machines are no longer around.

And it's a common strategy for a company not to patent its most important information. Patents make public their deepest secrets about how they make things work, and patents for improving a production process are harder to get. Patents also have a lifespan. So, many trade secrets are never patented, and if you don't get the people on board who developed the technology in the first place, you have to start over.

Rick "betting a lot of those file cabinet contents on the Charles River have been shipped to the recycler long since" Denney

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Forget it. I'm sure they will keep the price down as much as they can. But thinking that it will be 20.00 a box is a pipe dream. We have gone through the numbers here before. When you figure what traditional film and processing costs per sheet, a hundred a box for twenty prints and twenty negatives is a reasonable price.

I can dream can't I :rolleyes:

[Brian C. Miller]

I can dream can't I :rolleyes:

We can't buy name-brand film for that cheap!! Freestyle sells some of the Arista for under $20/box, but that's it! And you want pods for that price?

"I'm too cheap to buy film."
"Film is dead due to no demand."
"Hey, that sucks! They should keep making it!"

[John Conway]

Yeah, I see what you guys saying. It is a bit more complicated than I thought. I guess it gets down to the funding as well.The money issue was brought up before on another thread. Someone has to see the potential customer base here. A nice chunk of cash would certainly speed things up.

[BobCrowley]

Yeah, I see what you guys saying. It is a bit more complicated than I thought. I guess it gets down to the funding as well.The money issue was brought up before on another thread. Someone has to see the potential customer base here. A nice chunk of cash would certainly speed things up.

Right. Patents do not matter at all here. There were few to begin with and those that existed have long expired. We have successfully completed the R&D feasibility stage and are pleased with the results which tell us that it is possible to produce a product with the desired characteristics. But, much left to do.

The obstacles are:

1. Re establishing supplier network of rather hard to obtain materials from scratch. Commitments to fairly large and continuous supply lines. Some suppliers are very reluctant as they lost money as old Pol went out.

2. Maintaining a business value proposition that can justify New55 as an ongoing, profitable enterprise at the projected price per sheet with room for higher silver prices. After you buy that D800, will you still have the money and the desire?

3. Obtaining investment capital to tool up, pay for the vendor work, start manufacturing, and the distribution, customer service, and overcome the current strong negatives from the pullout of 4x5 by Fuji, and bankruptcy of Kodak. You may have heard about this.

Nobody said it would be easy. Progress has been made, but there is still a lot to do. Manufacture of this type of product doesn't ramp up well from hand assembly, so there is a threshold effect that is still unresolved. That being said, 8 months after full funding of the plan, shipment can begin. The project has been run "open source" that is, no barriers to any other participants.

Bob

[Vaughn]

Six bucks a shot is what they estimated...If the quality is consistant, maybe I'll buy a pack in my lifetime. Very consistant and of the highest quality, maybe several boxes for traveling

Vaughn

[Jan Pedersen]

I must be missing something and that is quite normal but why are they trying to recreate the pods? How many shot 55 for the positive?
Why not just try to make a negative that looks like the 55 and forget the pods. I believe this new 55 project will be a failure after a couple of years if that long.

[Ben Syverson]

You need the pods to develop the negative... Otherwise you're just shooting non-instant negative film. But thanks for your positive note.

[Vaughn]

I must be missing something and that is quite normal but why are they trying to recreate the pods? How many shot 55 for the positive?
Why not just try to make a negative that looks like the 55 and forget the pods. I believe this new 55 project will be a failure after a couple of years if that long.

The positive is gravy...some folks want a high quality neg without darkroom work and that can be processed in the field/motel room with the minimum of fuss...tho I usually processed Type 55 when I got back home. But on extended road trips (such as my 5.5 months on a bicycle in NZ) to be able to process my negs, needing just a place to soak and wash them, then dry them would have been great. Also all the benefits of the ready-loads (no dust, no individual holders, etc).

[Jan Pedersen]

Point well taken, it is easy to process the 55 without the darkroom, as Vaughn i just never wanted to do it in the field but can see the need for that for traveling photographers.

Ben, Don't worry, my vision will have no influence on the success of the new 55 :)

[Vaughn]

The other factor is the "look" of the old Type 55 if one included the entire piece of film as part of the image.

A good friend developed an extensive body of work using Type 55 ( http://elaineling.com/photo_gobi.html ) and photographers have had to reinvent themselves and start new bodies of work due to the demise of Type 55 (granted reinvention is not a totally negative thing).

One can argue the merits of including the rebate portion of any film, but if one's body of work, developed over decades of hard serious work, used such things as the unique rebate of the Type 55 film as a conscience part of the image, then a re-emergence of the film (provided it has a silmilar rebate) would be a very great wonderful thing to them.

Photographers sued (unsuccesfully) Agfa when they changed Portriga Rapid the first time. It became impossible to do the work they were doing before (especially the split-toning) and these photographers lost income due their inability to duplicate prints that collectors and museums were wanting and waiting to buy.

[John Flavell]

Another question is the clearing solution, or soak, the negatives had to go through to clean off the pod 'gunk'. I still have some of that in powder form and wondering if clearing the negatives will be part of the New Type 55 process.

[Vaughn]

It is. They recommend regular fixer because for some strange reason they think Sodium sulphite is expensive and hard to get (maybe it is in Europe).

[Jan Pedersen]

A good friend developed an extensive body of work using Type 55 ( http://elaineling.com/photo_gobi.html ) and photographers have had to reinvent themselves and start new bodies of work due to the demise of Type 55 (granted reinvention is not a totally negative thing).

Those are some of my very favorite photos. Good to visit with Elaine Ling again. I think it was in the View Camera mag that i first saw her work and it really impressed me. Not sure it was the rebate from the film though but it does make a statement whether positive or negative. (No Pun)

[John Conway]

If you want to prepare yourself for the New 55 film, check out ebay. I just bought an unused, unopened clearing bucket kit, with the full bag of powder for nine bucks. Also, I picked up two holders, one original 500 and one 545 both mint in the boxes for 7.00 and 12.00. I must admit I like the older 500 better and have been using it regularly with my expired Polaroid. The 500 is total old school quality. Solid, stainless steel construction.Man, I would love to get my hands on a few sheets of that film.

[Vaughn]

Those are some of my very favorite photos. Good to visit with Elaine Ling again. I think it was in the View Camera mag that i first saw her work and it really impressed me. Not sure it was the rebate from the film though but it does make a statement whether positive or negative. (No Pun)

I have a few pieces of her work, though not printed on 20x24 Ektalure as she was wont to do. It is always wonderful to be in contact with such incredible artists -- who are also happen to be just good people. We did some road trips together in CA and the Southwest when she was working her rock series way back when...and we were assistants together at some of the old Friends of Photography workshops way back when.

She has a show coming up at the end of the month in the Los Angeles area -- too far for me to travel to as I have a show going up at the same time up here 800 miles north in Northern CA.

[BobCrowley]

I must be missing something and that is quite normal but why are they trying to recreate the pods? How many shot 55 for the positive?
Why not just try to make a negative that looks like the 55 and forget the pods. I believe this new 55 project will be a failure after a couple of years if that long.

We did this. It's called R3. The Efke 25 processed in R3 is indistinguishable from the negative we get with New55, except there are no artifacts, blobbed edges. Nobody was interested, even though it is the cheapest, and very high quality.

New55 is of interest to this group, however, it is primarily aimed at a new audience, newly aware of 4x5 photography, at schools, artists, alternative process users, people who graduate from lomography, and others who have never exposed a piece of film. Some of that audience is shared with the very rapidly growing Impossible Project customer base.

The remaining camera stores do not stock sodium sulfite, but they do have fixer for the high school classes. Also, swimming pool dechlorinator (Chlor-out) can be used, and that is very widely available. Sodium sulfite is hard to get if you are a college student.

Traditional LF photographers will continue with traditional tools and materials. That group represents potential teachers and innovators and about 20% of the projected market for the film, if it is released.