Polaroid 405 holder compatibility with Sinar F2

[meirronaldi]

My large format camera is an older Sinar F2 works great and it has been getting some regular use of late. Just to make sure... I like to sometimes use instant film to test composition, focus and basic exposure but as most know instant film is getting difficult to come by especially in 4x5 size. I am willing to use the much more affordable smaller size Fuji FP-100c (3.25x4.25 inches) as opposed to the FP100c45 (4x5 inches). To that end I recently obtained a Polaroid 405 holder which is in good working condition compatible with the smaller size Fuji film. Film packet inserted and seem to work fine. Thought I was good to go since it mounted into the graphlock back with no problem, from what I have read thickness is sometimes an issue. The Sinar back even has some nice sliding clips to clamp it in tight and prevent light leak, but then I went to mount the back onto the camera with no luck. The film holder has a tab which projects, at the end where you pull the tab after an exposure, too far causing it to block the graphlock back with holder from seating properly as it hits against the camera standard. This prevents you from being able to close the mounting clamp required to hold the assembly into place, normally a very simple thing on the Sinar. I have tried to make it work in a variety of positions such but no such luck. If you shoot with the graphlock back mounted and the film holder improperly seated focus is off and you get light leak.
Does anyone know if this is unique to the Sinar F2 but will work with other Sinar standards such as the "P"? Does anyone know if the actual "Fuji" holder, which looks like it has a slightly different geometry/shape, will work? Or am I just SOL trying to use the smaller sized more affordable film on my Sinar and if I want to shoot instant I am stuck with the overpriced 4x5 film?
My Fuji PA 45 holder for the 4x5 just slides in no problems and works like a dream but since the film is discontinued and costs about 4 times the price $26/10 shots as opposed to $7/10 shots per the cheaper film is very appealing. Thanks for your expert wisdom and experience!!!

[rdenney]

Have you tried sliding the 405 under the ground glass?

I have an F2 but not a 405. The Fuji PA-45 can be locked down using the Graflok tabs with no issue.

Rick "who has been on the lookout for a cheap 405 of late" Denney

[Frank Petronio]

Use the Graflock sliders with the back in the horizontal position, that should clear anything I know about... at least with the 2-3 variations in Sinar backs that I've had. I've also used it upside down and vertical, pulling the slide from the top. Trying to put it under the ground glass is awfully tight... you may disrupt (or break!) the camera trying to remove it.

The other Sinars like the P are going to have similar back mechanisms, they are all interchangeable and common between the cameras. They changed them slightly every few years.

Post a photo if you continue to have problems....

[megapickle1]

Hi Frank! I try use a Polaroid 405 holder with my Sinar p2. I have similar problems to fix the holder with the tabs. I solved the problem by using rubber bands holding the pola back to the sinar frame tight.

George

[buggz]

Hmm, I just bought a Fuji PA-45 back.
I have some FP100C45 film on the way.
I have test mounted this back in front of the ground glass, by opening/extending the back by use of the two levers, one on each side.
I am assuming this is how you would mount 4x5 double sided sheet film holders as well.
Is this incorrect?
I'm confused about the Graflock part above, and attaching this in lieu of the GG ?
I am working from "instructions" found here:
<<http://www.webster.edu/acadaffairs/asp/mediacenter/Photo/equipment%20manuals/sinar_introduction_manual.pdf>>
I will take some pics tonight.

[meirronaldi]

Buggz. I have and use a Fuji PA 45 film holder with with Fuji FP100c45 the 4x5 version of the film. It works without a problem. I slide it into my graphlock back without an issue and it mounts to the camera with not issue. You should have no problem and your set up should work fine. I have a limited quantity of this film and recent check of googleland indicates you can still buy film. But as I understand it Fuji has discontinued making or shipping the 4x5 size to the US. You can verify that in other threads about the available products. The Polaroid 405 holder is an alternative to the very hard to find Fuji PA 145 holder designed to work with the smaller size FP100c pack film. By comparison the small size film is about 60 cents a shot. It has some draw backs but would allow for test shots. But it is clear from working with the camera and graphlock back and film holder that these were not designed to go together. Hopefully the Fuji holder will work but I am doubtful which is surprising since most of Sinar gear is somewhat the "standard" if there is one. But when these were all designed know one could have envisioned a day when 4x5 film would be unavailable and when you would be forced to use the smaller size with this camera set up. So hopefully the Fuji back will work. I have even considered taking the Polaroid down to the shop and cutting this tab down with the Dremil. It seems like all it needs is about 1/8 of an inch to let it clear the camera standard. When I get to my PC I will try to post some photos which I think will more clearly show the problem. Thanks to everyone for thinking about this.

[buggz]

Wow, I'm getting bummed about all the film is going away.
I still wonder about my recent serious cash output on Sinar f2 type gear now.
Though, I WILL use it as I've always wanted to learn this type of gear.
Hopefully I will get to use it this week end with the instant film.

[rdenney]

I use a PA-45 in my Sinar F2 all the time with no issue. You push in the two chrome spring clips above and below the ground glass and slide the ground-glass frame sideways. It comes unclipped and will come off the camera in your hand. Then, place the PA-45 in its place, making sure the ridge to the right of the opening seats in the slot on the camera, the same way any film holder would do. Then, slide the two tabs at the top and bottom of the back so that they slide into slots at the edges of the PA-45 and lock it in place.

The Graflok design includes the ground-glass frame held on with spring clips, and the two tabs to lock into those slots. The "standard" only requires that the tabs be positioned in a particular way.

Note that the Graflok tabs must be open for the ground glass frame to seat properly.

Rick "it's only confusing the first time" Denney

[meirronaldi]

6927369274So back to my original question has anyone been successful using the Polaroid 405 film holder for the smaller FP100c 3x4 film with a Sinar F2? I have attached two images one showing the film holder and the offending part the other showing the conflict with the camera. I have tried switch to all the positions. Turing it vertical allows the holder to clear the Sinar standards but you cannot get the dark slide out. I am wondering if I take this into the shop and cut the tab down, it looks like 1/8 or so might do it that it would work. It would no longer have value for a collector but I am trying to get working gear.

[buggz]

Yeap, sure is confusing.
I have taken the back completely off, and apart.
Though, I have not tried to take the GG off while the back is still on.
I will look at this tonight.
Any problems with the method of putting the film holders in front of the ground glass?

[rdenney]

Any problems with the method of putting the film holders in front of the ground glass?

For holders that don't have protrusions that will bear on the glass directly, and if the spring arrangement of the ground-glass holder has sufficient travel to accommodate the thickness of the back, then there's nothing wrong with just sliding it under the ground glass. I do not know whether the back on the Sinar will accommodate a Polaroid 405, aside from the issue described by the OP. It will absolutely accommodate a Fuji PA-45 in that way, though not with an abundance of margin. I just tested it. The PA-45 back is about 1.07" thick.

Rick "noting that the bail tab has a 1" travel, so lifting the back itself is required with the PA-45" Denney

[rdenney]

6927369274So back to my original question has anyone been successful using the Polaroid 405 film holder for the smaller FP100c 3x4 film with a Sinar F2? I have attached two images one showing the film holder and the offending part the other showing the conflict with the camera. I have tried switch to all the positions. Turing it vertical allows the holder to clear the Sinar standards but you cannot get the dark slide out. I am wondering if I take this into the shop and cut the tab down, it looks like 1/8 or so might do it that it would work. It would no longer have value for a collector but I am trying to get working gear.

That's not what I was visualizing from your first post. I don't know what to suggest other than your approaching of using a grinder. Can you determine the purpose of that tab? I don't have a 405 (though I'm in the market) and it's been 35 years since I used one.

Rick "who last used a 405 with Type 55 (er--665 or whatever) on a Linhof Kardan Color in maybe 1976" Denney

[meirronaldi]

692926929369294 More photos. I have film in the thing so without wasting 5 shots I can't open it up to know for sure its purpose. The tab, at least the part that is causing the problem, seems to serve little if any functional purpose. As you will see from the photo it's base catches the wire spring clip that holds it together But the offending top who knows? The center interior seems might serve to guide the pull tab that you pull out to pull the film through the rollers with each shot. I don't think I could whack the entire thing off without some negative results. The actual Fuji holder and the newer model 405 have what appears to be a lower profile with thinner material more geometric and less curvy. Might be enough to just clear the side standard and allow this to seat. I just wasted a shot and the plastic part just seems to cover the slot the pull tabs come through. I am going to also post a YouTube movie of someone loading film into one of these it is the newer model.It is petty helpful for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRNygubxLck

[buggz]

meirronaldi:
I found this when searching, maybe it will help?
<<https://secure.flickr.com/groups/largeformat/discuss/72157627013067693/>>

[rdenney]

meirronaldi:
I found this when searching, maybe it will help?
<<https://secure.flickr.com/groups/largeformat/discuss/72157627013067693/>>

That thread and the Youtube video demonstrate what the OP has also observed--later 405 pack holder used a flat locking clip rather than the chrome spring clip to hold the holder closed after inserting the film pack. It has a different shape, and it works in the Sinar without modification.

That's good to know for those of us keeping an eye out for a 405.

The one I used back in the 70's was of the type meirronaldi pictured, but the only camera I ever used with that holder was a Linhof.

Rick "wondering whether Polaroid altered the back to fit more cameras or to comply with a standard earlier models didn't" Denney

[brighamr]

hi ronaldi

I use/ have used both fuji and polaroid pack film backs on sinar p/P2 and F2
I have always slid them under the ground glass and not had a problem
the sinar backs have loads of space for such things
I have never used the grafloc

the tab problem I think you have can be solved by taking the strip with the slot in it off the side of the sinar frame where it touches
this is done with 2 screws
I have taken them off all of mine
it is really easy and only takes a second
if you dont like it you can just put it back

hope that helps

[Jonstot]

Ancient thread, but what the hey...
I have a 405 holder that doesn't look like the one pictured in the photograph. It fits snugly into my Sinar back, but in horizontal orientation only. I've tried pretty much everything to get it to work in vertical orientation, but I think it's impossible - the edge of the holder butts up against the plate on the camera where the level and swing lock are. Any thoughts? The only way to get a vertical shot is to rotate the entire camera 90 degrees on the rail, but that's an absurd situation, functionally speaking.