Beginners first Thread 4x5 film

[Luke79]

Greetings to all Large Format Photographers,

I would like to introduce myself

My name is Luke , I am 33 Years old and starting to explore Large Format Photography,

I come from the Digital World and like to shoot Portraits, but i fell in love with the beatuiful black and white images Large Format Portrait Photography
Thats what i would like to do in future, especially the petzval, perscheid , Ektars ,Tessars fast old large format lenses with their beautiful Bokeh and special Rendering.
My first 4x5 Camera will be a speed graphic, i think perhaps a good starting camera to explore all the new stuff,

My main concern is the film , i know i can buy efke, Kodak , ilphord, Fuji 4x5 film sheets, but i do not own a special darkroom and therefore am afraid of damaging the film with my first tries, all the videos on the net i saw so far are telling me that i need to change film holders in total darkness, thats what im so afraid of, seems kinda silly but for me i dont want to hurt nobody :-) , can i have a redlight darkroom, so that i see what i am doing?, what would be the best way to practice this?

after the film is exposed , i would really like to develop it by myself, is there a chemical starter set or something like it to get me started in develeoping 4x5 film sheets?

Or does someone of you have a tipp for building a small darkroom for my purpose

Thank you so far, sorry for my english my main language is german so there could be some mistakes

best wishes to all and this was my first post :-)

Luke

[Michael Graves]

Welcome aboard, Luke. If you wanna get over your fear of the high dive, you gotta make that first jump. First of all, no...you cannot use a red safe light while loading film. There are some dark green lights that can be used for very short periods, but even those can fog the film with excessive exposure. Learn to work in the dark. Here is a quick tutorial on learning how to load film. (http://www.mwgraves.com/Photography/sheet_film.htm) Make sure you clean the holders thoroughly and put them in zip lock bags when transporting them. Dust is your worst enemy.

I'll let some of the other members tackle your other questions. I like HC-110 and Rodinal for developers, depending on the film I shot and the subject matter. Freestyle Photo Sales (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/) has several options for developers and fixers. Oh and one other rule....you have to post your first photograph here on the forum!

[darr]

Oh and one other rule....you have to post your first photograph here on the forum!

:p ;)

[Luke79]

Welcome aboard, Luke. If you wanna get over your fear of the high dive, you gotta make that first jump. First of all, no...you cannot use a red safe light while loading film. There are some dark green lights that can be used for very short periods, but even those can fog the film with excessive exposure. Learn to work in the dark. Here is a quick tutorial on learning how to load film. (http://www.mwgraves.com/Photography/sheet_film.htm) Make sure you clean the holders thoroughly and put them in zip lock bags when transporting them. Dust is your worst enemy.

Oh and one other rule....you have to post your first photograph here on the forum!

Thank you very much Michael, so my worst case scenario has happened :) no red light , ok so my fingers do have to do the work, ill take a look at your link
michael one question, after i have exposed the film and back home, do i still need totall darkness to get the film out of the holder? sorry for these questions but i am really new to this whole stuff :p

[Luke79]

:p ;)

I will, maybe it will take some time but i will :cool:;) the first 4x5 , im excited , we will see !

[Michael Graves]

Yes. Until it is developed, it must have total darkness. If you develop in trays, your trays must be in total darkness. There are a few daylight developing tanks, such as the HP Combi and the Jobo, but they are relatively expensive and hard to find these days, since they are no longer made. Start with developing no more than a couple of sheets at a time. After that, try four and so on and so forth. Beyond the Zone System has a very nice little setup that consists of tubes that you put the sheet film into in the dark, and then float the tanks full of developer in tempered water baths. I've never tried them personally, but people who have seem to think very highly of them. Perhaps someone else will offer a review of these tanks someday.

[Peter Yeti]

Don't worry, the Jobo drums are still produced for sure and they are excellent. I use the 2521 on a CPE-2 processor but you can also roll the tank by hand. It needs a bit of practice to load the 2509n reel in total darkness but once the films are in the closed tank, you can do the rest in daylight. I think that the HP combi plan is also still made, at least you can still buy it new from B&H. I bet it's cheaper than the Jobo tanks, not as cheap as trays though.

You might want to get a cheap pack of film and play with it for the beginning. As already said, the film must be handled in total darkness until developed. That's particularly important when loading your holders. Otherwise you may ruin an entire pack of film. Make sure the emulsion side is face up when loading the film holders. Take two shots right where you are, your back yard, your street, your dog, it really shouldn't matter because it's quite probable that the first try fails anyway. Develop with your prefered method and see what you get. Then you have two films for practicing. You can use them in daylight and figure out how to load film holders, development reels or other tank holders. You can practice till you feel safe to try it in the dark with undeveloped film. Don't worry, it's easier than it sounds.

Good luck,
Peter

P.s.: you even can sacrify an undeveloped film to figure out the loading procedures.

[Luke79]

Don't worry, the Jobo drums are still produced for sure and they are excellent. I use the 2521 on a CPE-2 processor but you can also roll the tank by hand. It needs a bit of practice to load the 2509n reel in total darkness but once the films are in the closed tank, you can do the rest in daylight. I think that the HP combi plan is also still made, at least you can still buy it new from B&H. I bet it's cheaper than the Jobo tanks, not as cheap as trays though.

You might want to get a cheap pack of film and play with it for the beginning. As already said, the film must be handled in total darkness until developed. That's particularly important when loading your holders. Otherwise you may ruin an entire pack of film. Make sure the emulsion side is face up when loading the film holders. Take two shots right where you are, your back yard, your street, your dog, it really shouldn't matter because it's quite probable that the first try fails anyway. Develop with your prefered method and see what you get. Then you have two films for practicing. You can use them in daylight and figure out how to load film holders, development reels or other tank holders. You can practice till you feel safe to try it in the dark with undeveloped film. Don't worry, it's easier than it sounds.

Good luck,
Peter

P.s.: you even can sacrify an undeveloped film to figure out the loading procedures.


Thanks a lot Micheal and Peter for the tips, that would be the best to try the whole procedure on a test film, in order to get comfortable with it, first thing i had in mind was to try instant fuji packs in order to get into the function of a speed graphic , ill take a look at the hp combo and jobo tanks

great stuff so far, thank you guys!

[Ari]

Welcome to the dark side, Luke.
Sorry, I had to say it. :)
You're starting with an excellent camera for a first-timer, my suggestion would be to shoot film first, and spend some money on having a lab process your film.
The learning curve is steep, and figuring out two major components of LF and the attendant gear, is a headache.
Shoot for pleasure and experimentation, see if you like the LF shooting process first, then invest in some darkroom gear.
Good luck!

[Jay DeFehr]

Welcome, Luke!

I too love LF portraiture (and all other kinds of portraiture). Getting started is the hardest part-- there are so many bits and pieces of special equipment to collect, and a workflow to establish. You will make mistakes, but the good people at this forum can help you to avoid many and explain the ones that are not avoided so that you don't continue making the same mistakes.

You'll have to get used to working in the dark, but it's not as much of a problem as it might seem. With practice it becomes second nature.

Try to avoid the temptation to take shortcuts. If you learn to see the time lavished on your process as an indulgence, you won't be tempted to cheat yourself, and you'll feel less anxiety about the time you spend on every step of your process.

If you learn something from every mistake, they won't seem like failures, just points along the path to mastery.

Keep good notes. By thoroughly documenting your successes and errors, you'll be more likely to repeat your successes, and less likely to repeat your errors.

You don't need expensive equipment or materials to make beautiful images, but choosing either based on cost alone can be false economy.

Beware enthusiasts. You might find persons with experience recommending their favorite equipment or materials with zeal and fervor, and you should regard their recommendations with healthy skepticism. The enormous surface area of a LF image means that almost anything we use will be capable of excellent results, but nothing we use will guarantee them.

Have fun! If you find yourself becoming anxious over some detail or expectation, take a deep breath and remind yourself this is about joy and beauty, and not about measurements or numbers, but.....

There are a lot of numbers, but most relate to something intuitive, and it's not necessary to understand them all in great detail to do fine work. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you need to learn before you can work. You can learn everything you need to know in the process of working, and this learning continues as long as you continue to work.

Welcome, and enjoy!

[Luke79]

Thank you both for your kind words , they are really helpful, i really need to take this step by step, i have a fuji gx680, thats kind of a mediumformat camera with large format possibilities, so some experience is there :cool::)

i will try ti exerceise all the movement i need to do in the dark with some test sheets in the light , i hope i can show a result soon :o

thank you all for your input, really nice forum here on the darkside with kind people :cool:

[Light Guru]

You don't need to build a full light tight room. Changing tents work well. This is the one I use.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/41880-REG/Photoflex_AC_CROO1_Film_Changing_Room_25.html

A previous post mentioned the BTSZ tubes, I looked into those myself but decided against them because you must change chemicals in the dark as the cap does not have a way to add or empty chemicals.

I settled on using a unicolor drum tank and motor base for processing. it lets me process up to 4 sheets of 4x5 at a time.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/

Using the same changing tent I load the unicolor drum with exposed film And the rest is all done in the light.

As for chemicals many photo stores still cary unmixed Kodak chemicals. The photo store in my local mall even has packages to mix D76.

Best of luck to you.

[welly]

Surprised it took this long before someone mentioned change tents!

[Luke79]

thanks light guru for your tips, they are more than welcome , great,

i have two questions on my mind, when i am doing it all in these black changer bags, arent these bags prone to dust, cause you cant see what youre doing in this back and they can collect dust inside?

If i would like to send my exposed films to the lab, what would be the best way to pack them up for traveling?, do i need to send my filmholder to the lab?

Strange questions, but for me as a beginner, i really need to figure it out

thank you guys so far!!!

[Brian Ellis]

Try not to be too worried about loading film in the dark. It seems daunting at first but you quickly get the hang of it. I reached a point where I could load about 20 holders in about 15-20 minutes but the first few times it probably took almost that much time to load one holder. The main thing to watch for is inserting the film into the slots where the dark slide goes instead of where the film is supposed to go. Unfortunately it's possible to put the dark slide back in the holder even after doing that, without realizing what you've done. You discover the problem only when you're in the field photographing and the film is ruined when it pops out of the holder as you re-insert the dark slide after making a photograph.

With respect to the BTZS tubes that someone else mentioned, I used them for years and liked them a lot. I never quite understood why more people don't use them instead of the far more expensive and far more space-hogging Jobo system. Jobo is great for volume users because you can process more film in one run than the 6 sheets that are typical of the BTZS tubes. And the fact that it's motorized allows you to do other things for a few minutes while the film is being processed. But the BTZS tubes cost less, use far less chemistry, take up less space, and allow you to process different sheets for different times in the same run. There's been a lot written about them here over the years, you should be able to find plenty of information by typing "BTZS tubes" or something like that in the search button.

I hate changing tents. Before I had a dedicated darkroom I sat on the floor of a closet at night and loaded film that way rather than using a changing tent. I'd avoid them if at all possible unless you like dust magnets that cause your hands and arms to get sweaty and make you feel like you're in a strait jacket. Obviously just a personal preference kind of thing, others like them fine.

[premortho]

Well if you buy a box of film, pull out one sheet (in the dark) put the rest of the film back in the black envelope and close the box, you can then practice loading your sheet film holders in daylight. If the sheet film holders are not new, I'd load both sides of each film holder to make sure they are ok. Then go into the bathroom, turn out the lights, and practice in the dark. If it has a window you can tape a black trash bag over it. I always load mine so the light colored side is out to tell me it is unexposed. Then after shooting, I put the dark side of the slide pointing out to show it is exposed. I hope this helps a little

[premortho]

I forgot to add that when the notches in the film are in the upper right hand side of the film, the emulsion side of the film is facing you. When you pull out that first sheet of film to practice with, you'll see the notch.

[icanthackit]

Brian: Thanks for mentioning those BTZS tubes. It seems extremely interesting. I haven't been doing large format for long, maybe a year or a little more, and I had never heard of them during that time. I checked up on it and noticed that they have some youtube videos demonstrating processing for 5 or 6 sheets of film. Of course, the film has to be loaded into the tubes in complete darkness, and I'm not sure how the caps work, but I think you do them in darkness, but I noticed that at the end of the developing time, he takes the cap off in "dim roomlight" and places it in the stop bath tub, and then takes the un-fixed film out of the tube in that same dim roomlight and puts it into the fix on hangers. He explained that you're mostly safe after the film has gone through the full developing time...it just seems dangerous even though he said he's never had a problem with even 400 speed film.

I'll have to check out these tubes some more, but I don't have a sink like he does. I've been using trays.

[rdenney]

I've loaded film in bags, changing tents, closets, and darkrooms.

Bags are terrible, because the top of the bag is always laying on what your are doing and getting in the way, and every time you lift your arms, the stuff laid out on the bottom of the bag gets overturned and confused. The other options solve that problem. Using a tent is not bad, and I do not find that dust is a worse problem with a tent than in a closet or darkroom. I do vacuum out my tent regularly, though, using a vacuum attachment with a soft brush on it.

Loading film becomes a ritual. You'll develop a habit about how you lay it out, and what process you undertake. I always put the film box here, the stack of holders there, the filled holders next to that, the brush right there, and so on. This is true no matter where I'm doing it, and the problem with a bag is that it prevents such consistency. My holders go into the dark with the slides dark-side-out (usually, I'm removing film from them and reloading them in the same operation). One side is smooth and the other side has a row of bumps so you can tell which side it out. I pull the dark slide not quite all the way out, and with my left thumb hold open the hinge. I use the brush (a 2" camel-hair brush--mine is branded "Kodak" but Delta sells them now) to wipe down the holder, and both sides of the dark slide, being careful to wipe slowly and aiming the stroke down and away from the holder so that I don't stir the dust into the air. With my right hand I pick up one sheet so that the notches are in the upper right, and then slide the film down past my left thumb, through the hinge and into the holder. I then use the brush to wipe down the surface of the film, fold over the hinge, feel that it is sitting completely flush (which it won't if the film is in the wrong slot). I then pull out the dark slide, reverse it so the white side will be out, and slide it back in all the way. I turn it over and load the second sheet, and then set it in the "loaded" stack.

When removing the film, recognize that there is a slight depression machined into the holder at the visible edge when the hinge is open. This gives you a place to slide a fingernail under the film edge so you can grasp the edge and pull it out.

Rehearse with dead film (processed or unprocessed doesn't matter--I have a stack of messed-up exposures that I use). Be as meticulous during practice as with fresh film. Practicing sloppiness will just habitualize it.

Rick "large format requires meticulous consistency and a calm, quality-driven attitude" Denney

[Bill Burk]

Don't worry if the first sheets get scratched or dusty. Once you get the hang of it you will get cleaner negatives.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

My first 4x5 Camera will be a speed graphic, i think perhaps a good starting camera to explore all the new stuff

Speed Graphics are all around good cameras, regardless if you are a beginner or not.

[fralexis]

Luke, as a long time photographer, I have just started LF. I can say that you will immediately be hooked. Nothing else like it. And don't fret over the darkness. I was terrified the first time, but it was incredibly easy after that. After a couple of tries, you will be great at it! Just follow the directions given above.

[John Kasaian]

Enjoy the adventure! :D

[ki6mf]

you can also get changing tents. These have support inside that keep then off your film and they fold flat when not in use. i can load 10 cassettes at a time. regarding dust clean and sir brush film cassettes just before loading with film. Vacuum out your changing bag/tent/ photo back pack and inside of your camera on a regular basis. after loading film keep cassettes inside a large zip lock bag.

[Luke79]

Thank you all very much for these Kind words , today is the Day my Speed arrived , still in the package but im happy as a Child :-)

Will let you all know and will Post my First pictures soon ;-)

[blevblev]

I use the BTZS tubes as well. I find them to solve a lot of my problems which are similar to yours. If you watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXQO5ATgiY (and the part 2 video,) you will see what I mean. I set my process up to match Fred's. I use the tubes to develop, a tray for the stop bath, and Yankee tanks with 4x5 hangers for the rest. You can actually do the stop and fix steps with a safelight on. It runs against what I had always believed, but it works. The only parts of my setup that are truly dark, are a closet where I transfer the films into the BTZS tubes, and by my sink, where I transfer the tubes from the dry caps to the ones that are filled with developer. After the tubes are transferred, you can turn the safelight back on for the rest of the time.

[blevblev]

The second video is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KGv_SqbzU

By the way my setup doesn't include the violin player.

[magneticred]

I started shooting LF about 3 months ago having never used anything more than a point and shoot camera. I started out with a 35mm Minolta that I could learn to do manual exposures, from there I started developing my own color film with a Patterson tank and a C-41 press kit (B and H Photo and Freestyle), that led to medium format (Yashica D). After seeing the amazing difference between 35 mm and MF, I made the leap to LF and am amazed at the results I get.

Here are a few things that worked for me:
>Get a good changing bag to load your film holders, and daylight tank
>Process your own film - I have tried B&W, Color Negs, and Transparencies of the three, I personally like Color Negatives (Kodak Ektar 100 suits me well for landscapes). If you have access to a 35 mm film camera, practice on a few rolls of that to get your confidence up. The chemicals are all available on-line and the directions are pretty straight forward. One of the best advice I read on this forum is to stick with one film and one developer.
>Get a good daylight tank to process your film. I used the same Patterson daylight tank I had bought for 35 mm and MF film (about $30 on B and H) to process one sheet of LF film at a time. I recently purchased the JOBO drum with the 4X5 film holder so I can now process 6 sheets at a time.
>Get a good scanner. I'm on my 3rd one because I went cheap on the first two and wasn't satisfied with the results. Finally have an Epson 4990 and couldn't be happier. I understand the Epson V700 and V750 are also very nice.
>You will need at least a dozen film holders. I bought 3 different types used on ebay. Of the ones I tried, I like the Fidelity Elites the best as they are the easiest to load/unload in the changing bag.
>A sturdy, light weight tripod. These can be expensive, I found a good one (cant remember the brand) for less than $100.
> A shoulder bag to carry all your stuff. I found one at a hardware store for less than $20 that works well.
>Dark Cloth or Focusing Cloth. One day I will purchase a genuine focusing cloth, but for now I use a black tee-shirt that works reasonably well.
>Visit this forum often and learn from and be inspired by all the amazing photographers on this site.

[Luke79]

Thx you all for These Great and Rich Tipps , i am starting to love this Community , Great help

Ive got my 4x5 and made my First Test exposures on dated fuji 100c Instant Film , all Went great

I have the following films collected tO Start my work

Fuji fp3000b 4x5
Polaroid 55 20 sheets
Fuji quickloads 20 sheets velvia 100
And efke 25 normal Film this will
Be the First Film
I will develop on my own im excited

Im taking step by step as you see :-)


Im loving the Camera so far !!!!


Thx to all so much and soon posting my first picuteres



Luke

[premortho]

Yeah, Speeders are great. If you will stick with the Speed Graphic and learn what all it can do, you'll be amazed at the work you can do. You will hear about all the Super-Whizzbang Cameras that are so much better, it can be hard to stick to your guns. But that camera is better than 98% of the photographers using one, so just stick to it and take good pictures! And three ways to focus! Four if it has focus-spot!!

[Adrian Pybus]

My first batch of film I got loaded by a friend (I actually borrowed his camera too!). When I got my first large format camera and had to load film myself I was dragging my feet because I was nervous I'd make mess of it. I needn't have worried.
On the whole everything including loading film was MUCH easier than I thought it would be.
The main problem was with dust as mentioned above.
I would also recommend learning to develop film last after you've mastered the camera and enlarger work. If you fail printing a negative nothing is lost, you can try again. If you fail developing a negative that negative is ruined forever.

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

If you are stuck with a changing bag, you can improve the experience by simulating a tent : a contraption made of plastic tubing will do it, or even a suitable size cardboard box.
And search "Taco method" - using a Paterson tank and some rubber bands - but don't forget to use the center column to keep things light-tight..

[Luke79]

Attention Attention :-) Drum Roll please , my first developed test negative, it is not that hard to do if you get a hang of it, you all were right!!! :) now i can go on and shoot my beloved portraiture;)

http://s7.directupload.net/images/120413/k4oat4yg.jpg

[Trius]

Congratulations ... you did very well!