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John Conway
14-Feb-2012, 16:41
I am curious. I know that an APO lens is great for color photography, but does an APO lens have any effect when using black and white?

vinny
14-Feb-2012, 16:42
Yes.

John Kasaian
14-Feb-2012, 16:53
Mine are very sharp, if thats what you want to know,

Leigh
14-Feb-2012, 16:55
The film is sensitive to all colors (assuming panchromatic).

It's just the rendering that's black & white.

I'm inclined to believe that the quality control of APO lenses is tighter than for non-APOs, although I can't prove it.

All (almost) of my LF lenses are APOs, both taking and enlarging. I wouldn't have spent the extra money if I didn't think it was worth it.

- Leigh

Vaughn
14-Feb-2012, 17:02
A longer answer...

White light is made of all colors, so it is nice to have all those colors focused on the same plane. The question would be if the rest of your process can or will take advantage of the sharper image. For example if you make platinum prints on textured paper, then the loss of sharpness due to your printing style will negate any advantage of the APO lens.

John Conway
14-Feb-2012, 17:04
Thanks for the quick response guys. I'm considering a 150 Symmar 5.6 APO to add to my 4x5 set. Sounds like the Symmar would make a nice addition.

Daniel Stone
14-Feb-2012, 17:47
my (former) 150mm APO-Symmar was a tremendous lens, super light, super-duper sharp, and contrasty(in a good way :)).

My B/W(in my case, Acros and TMax 100/400 in 4x5 and 120) film exposed with this lens during the time I owned it are among some of my best negatives. My color negatives and transparencies are the same. This lens has a nice "bite" to it that is kinda hard to explain. For me, it was a bit too harsh, especially on transparencies in full sun or shots with relatively high contrast.

If you're looking for a "bargain" APO lens, look at Red-Dot Artars. I'm now standardizing on them for the majority of my LF lens lineup. They're a little slower(f-stop wise) than the 5.6 symmars, but they're super sharp, and can be usually had at a fraction of the cost of the more modern glass.
I'm shooting mostly color, so APO is an almost "requirement" for me ;)

-Dan

Ken Lee
14-Feb-2012, 18:45
APO is like the term "diet" or "natural": it's as much a marketing term as it is a technical description. Modern lenses are very well color-corrected.

TheDeardorffGuy
14-Feb-2012, 19:42
APO lenses can be great on b&w. and offer real deals now a days. A under valued one are the F10 Kodak Anastigmats. These are very sharp and inexpensive in barrel. I was given a boz load a few years ago from a graphic art house. There were a few that suffered from acid etch. but many were perfect that I use with a Packard shutter.

Kevin Crisp
14-Feb-2012, 20:51
I am sceptical of any noticeable difference in a b&w negative between a MC Symmar-S and an APO. And I've had sets of both.

John Conway
14-Feb-2012, 21:41
Well, the more opinions I get, the harder it is to make a decision. The choice for me will be between a Symmar APO 150 or a Nikkor W 150 5.6 S. As far as the Symmar, I'm convinced that it is a darn good lens. But there is something about that Nikon.

Scotty230358
15-Feb-2012, 00:31
I must confess that my two APO Ronars don't appear to be visably superior to my non APO lenses (with the exception of my Berlin Series III Dagor)

evan clarke
15-Feb-2012, 05:34
I have 11 enlargers functioning and a huge amount of lenses. My 150 APO Componon is the queen of the fleet and superior to my Nikkors, other Schneiders and Rodenstocks.EC

Sevo
15-Feb-2012, 06:09
I have 11 enlargers functioning and a huge amount of lenses. My 150 APO Componon is the queen of the fleet

There is little doubt that apochromatic correction is at an advantage for strictly flat work - that is where APO lenses come from. Few of us do LF for repro work, though...

rdenney
15-Feb-2012, 06:52
1.) There is conventional wisdom that says APO lenses are best for color work, but that's because with black and white you can filter out part of the spectrum. We often filter out blue to darken the sky with respect to sunlit objects, and when we do, we minimize one end of the spectrum (blue) that might focus differently than the other end (red). That is the opposite effect of using orthochromatic (blue-sensitive) film, which is insensitive to red. If we do that filtering, we will greatly reduce the effect of chromatic aberration, which is what APO lenses are designed to eliminate. The advent of achromatic and apochromatic lenses was heralded as a boon to color photography, where filters aren't usually used.

But for panchromatic black and white without filters, the out-of-focus color will create a fuzzy halo compared to the focused color. It might resolve as much detail, but contrast will be reduced in the finer detail.

2.) Whether this is visible or not is a function of several things, including whether the rest of one's technique is good enough for this to be a limiting factor. Also, lots of people prefer lenses with less contrast, particularly for pictures of people (though not just for portraits). I've used old lenses and new, and I can barely tell the difference between an ancient tessar properly used and a modern multi-coated plasmat, let alone between a modern multi-coated plasmat and one just like it with the tiny improvements needed to make it an "APO" lens. These are subtle effects. If pictures are not obviously sharp with non-APO lenses, there is probably something else in play, and getting an APO lens might not solve the problem.

Rick "not talking about critical applications such as commercial copy work" Denney

Steve Hamley
15-Feb-2012, 07:49
But for panchromatic black and white without filters, the out-of-focus color will create a fuzzy halo compared to the focused color. It might resolve as much detail, but contrast will be reduced in the finer detail.

That means you can get more for them here!

Seriously, color fringing usually gets worse as you get further out in the image circle, and most lenses will show some at some point and at some magnification. It usually isn't an issue with anything remotely "modern". Usually if you see it, it's around bare tree branches at the edges of an image, or other fine, well-defined features.

It's also interesting to note that most digital back software has corrections for color fringing, and the Hasselblad software corrects for specific lenses (pick your lens off a menu).

FYI and a little OT, I also recently did a non-critical test for color and resolution between a 8-1/2" Commercial Ektar, a single-coated Fujinon 180mm W, and a 180mm Rodenstock Apo Sironar-S. The Fuji and Kodak were almost identical in color rendition and saturation, and the Apo Sironar-S a little more accurate in reds - my red test object was actually a little orangish, and the Kodak and Fuji rendered it a touch more red that it is, which I've noted in use (faded red barn roofs). That said, the difference in the lenses is less than between films.

Cheers, Steve

Bob Salomon
15-Feb-2012, 07:55
The definition of an apochromatic lens for photograph is that the lateral chromatic abberations of the secondary spectrum have been reduced to a very small percentage of the focal length.
Fo black and white, as well as color, this means that color fringing is greatly reduced or eliminated. In black and white color fringing causes fine details in a high contrast field to appear thicker. An example of this would be fine tree details against the sky. With the apo corrected lens these details would appear sharper.

The above definition is the one used by the German optical industry; Rodenstock, Schneider, Leitz, etc. For microscophy a different definition applies, that is the one that states that the rays cross at a common point.

Dan Fromm
15-Feb-2012, 07:57
Bob, hasn't the DIN standard you alluded to been withdrawn?

Bob Salomon
15-Feb-2012, 07:59
Bob, hasn't the DIN standard you alluded to been withdrawn?

By whom?

John Conway
15-Feb-2012, 14:40
Well, I will say this, you gentlemen sure know your stuff. And I appreciate the lessons.I don't see where I can go wrong with an APO lens. And I must admit it definitely sounds cool. I'm just saying.

Drew Wiley
15-Feb-2012, 14:51
With older lenses the distinction can be significant, or with very critical usages like using smaller format backs with view camera, where high levels of enlargement can transpire. Then again, Mr Galli might have a few good arguments why lenses need to
be un-corrected for this or that. One man's medicine is another man's poison.

Roger Cole
15-Feb-2012, 14:53
Yes, but maybe not enough to matter. Depends how good your non-APO lens is, how critical you are, the look you want, and if and how you filter.

If you use a sharp cutting single color filter the difference will be completely eliminated, but you must focus with the filter in place, and of course you may not want the look that gives you, nor the exposure increase.

Oren Grad
15-Feb-2012, 15:04
The "Apo" label on a lens is useless as a guide to fitness for any particular photographic task. If you have hair-splitting requirements, you need to test the specific lenses you're considering. If you don't, but just prefer not to take your chances with older glass, then any late-model lens from one of the major manufacturers should do.

sun of sand
19-Feb-2012, 22:21
unless it's a magnifying lens youre upgrading from I doubt

Doremus Scudder
20-Feb-2012, 04:44
I, personally, would base my decision on other criteria... weight, filter size, for example. I have Ektars and Nikkors and Schneider Apo lenses and don't see differences in sharpness at all at the degree of enlargement I use. In fact, some of the sharpest images I have were made with a 135mm WF Ektar...

What seems to influence the overall sharpness much more for me is the taking aperture, (higher diffraction due to DoF vs. "sweet spot"), focusing errors on my part, camera movement, etc. Most lenses are good enough to be way down on the list in this regard.

Best,

Doremus

Will Frostmill
20-Feb-2012, 11:33
Yes, but maybe not enough to matter. Depends how good your non-APO lens is, how critical you are, the look you want, and if and how you filter.

If you use a sharp cutting single color filter the difference will be completely eliminated, but you must focus with the filter in place, and of course you may not want the look that gives you, nor the exposure increase.

Roger,
Would you happen to know if using green-sensitive film,* or only the green channel from a digital back would be equally helpful? Or do you think filtering would be more effective regardless of the way you capture the image?

Will

*I know film sensitivities usually aren't very sharp in their falloff...

onnect17
2-Apr-2012, 10:52
Depends what color photography you're referring to. APO lenses are corrected (at least Schneider claims doing so) to the color layers in the film in the expected order and thickness, so an APO lens for digital work is a different design than for film.
Check this link --> https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/Digitar.pdf
Section 2, page 5

A very common mistake is to test an apo lens using B&W film.

E. von Hoegh
2-Apr-2012, 11:10
The graphic arts APO lenses were corrected so the three colors focussed at the same point and at the same size. The sensitive materials they were used with did not have multiple color sensitive layers.

If used with panchromatic film any lens with improved color correction will have an advantage.

Drew Wiley
2-Apr-2012, 11:45
There are even different standards of the Apo designation, depending on what they were
originally marketed for. In some cases it can make a significant difference, esp in lab and
mfg applications. Most taking lenses are now pretty well corrected for color, but that was
not always the case. As late as the 60's there were major brand name view lenses being sold which would color fringe, and maybe even since then.

Mark J
19-Apr-2012, 13:30
Guys
I've just come onto this forum and may be able to shed some extra light as I'm a lens designer in my day-job .
The APO-designation is somewhat loose and is used in a different way on different sorts of lenses .
There are really two sorts of residual ( secondary ) colour errors which can be tackled by 'Apo' design, which is mostly to do with the use of 'special' glass materials in the design - fluor-crowns and borate flints, for example .
In 35mm telephoto lenses , and teles for LF ( eg. Nikkor ) , we are correcting Longitudinal colour error , where light does not all come to the same axial ( front-to-back ) focus plane . In wide-angle lenses, process lenses, things like Apo-symmars and the like, we are worried about the LATERAL colour, where the wavelengths are coming apart in the higher field angles across the film plane, causing colour-fringing on contrasty edges.

I would agree with one of the guys earlier, who said there was no discernable difference in the Symmar-S and the Apo-Symmar , as really the Symmar-S is very well-corrected for longitudinal colour and lateral colour , and as good as the Apo-Symmar over most useful field angles , it's just that the Apo-symmar would have the edge on colour-fringing in the extreme outer parts of the image circle .

In the case of longitudinal ( secondary ) spectrum, the telephotos suffer quite badly from this effect , and I would expect a significant improvement going from a tele-Artar to eg. an Apo-Nikkor telephoto if used at wider apertures or with colour film .
These differences would reduce with smaller apertures and filtered ( B&W ) pictures .

Hope this helps
Mark Jeffs ( Qiotpiq UK, Pilkington PE Ltd, Carl Zeiss )

Brian C. Miller
19-Apr-2012, 13:52
Mark, without any reservation whatsoever, welcome to the forum!!

Yes, we're a bunch of nutters here. I think it's absolutely great that you've dropped by, and are so willing to share your knowledge with us.

Once again, welcome!

Bob Salomon
19-Apr-2012, 13:58
"Qiotpiq"

For those who don't know, Qiotpiq purchased Linos who purchased Rodenstock Precision Optical so all Rodenstock items that you know today, Analog view camera lenses, digital view camera lenses, enlarging lenses, duplicating lenses, center filters, loupes, DOF calculator, lens wrench, etc. are Qiotpiq products.

Leigh
19-Apr-2012, 14:10
Hi Mark, and welcome aboard.

It's great to have a knowledgeable professional weighing in on these questions.

I'd be interested in your opinion of the Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-N v. the Apo-Sironar-S lenses in 135-240mm FLs.
I've standardized on the Apo-Sironar-S lenses, on the assumption that they provide a slight improvement v. the -N.

Thank you.

- Leigh

Mark J
19-Apr-2012, 15:15
"Qiotpiq"

For those who don't know, Qiotpiq purchased Linos who purchased Rodenstock Precision Optical so all Rodenstock items that you know today, Analog view camera lenses, digital view camera lenses, enlarging lenses, duplicating lenses, center filters, loupes, DOF calculator, lens wrench, etc. are Qiotpiq products.

Hello Bob
Actually Qioptiq is a big international group . Your comments are certainly correct regarding the Munich operations of Rodenstick/Linos .
Our site in North Wales was originally set up in 1968 as a collaboration between Pilkington glass in the UK and Perkin Elmer in New England, and traded for many years as Pilkington PE Ltd . It then became Thales UK Ltd , then Qioptiq .
Qioptiq also has another big site in Singapore which used to be part of Avimo group .

Leigh - I wish I had first hand experience ( of everything ! ) but I haven't !
However the Sironar-S lenses will be probably be slightly better than the Sironar-N , a little more field , not a great difference , maybe slightly more efficient coatings . Both lines are excellent , the later Symmar/Sironar is a beautiful, elegant lens design, probably my favourite of all the photo lenses .

Leigh
19-Apr-2012, 15:32
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply. I realize the -N is an older product line, perhaps not one with which you have personal experience.

Your comments support my conclusions on the subject.

I have all of the Apo-Sironar-S lenses from 135mm through 240mm. I'm amazed at their outstanding performance.
I'll get the longer ones as soon as I can afford them. :D

Thank you.

- Leigh

Struan Gray
20-Apr-2012, 01:13
Qioptiq is a big international group .

Welcome to the group Mark. We love to pontificate about optical design from our armchairs here. Please be gentle :-)

For those that don't know, Qioptiq is now home to some classic German mittelstand companies who specialise in very high quality advanced OEM optics. I've used Gsänger and Spindler and Hoya in the lab - it's beautifully made, no-nonsense kit, and the sales force actually know their technology inside out.

"Qiotpiq" sounds like one of those small animals with a curly tail and a snout which gets eaten by jaguars. "Qioptiq" follows in the tradition of "Qinetiq" in trying to make science sound interesting and exciting to investment bankers and admirals. The web folks at Qioptiq have had the sense to buy up the domain name associated with nearly every possible misspelling, but they seem to have missed the new world piglet.

E. von Hoegh
20-Apr-2012, 07:23
Guys
I've just come onto this forum and may be able to shed some extra light as I'm a lens designer in my day-job .
The APO-designation is somewhat loose and is used in a different way on different sorts of lenses .
There are really two sorts of residual ( secondary ) colour errors which can be tackled by 'Apo' design, which is mostly to do with the use of 'special' glass materials in the design - fluor-crowns and borate flints, for example .
In 35mm telephoto lenses , and teles for LF ( eg. Nikkor ) , we are correcting Longitudinal colour error , where light does not all come to the same axial ( front-to-back ) focus plane . In wide-angle lenses, process lenses, things like Apo-symmars and the like, we are worried about the LATERAL colour, where the wavelengths are coming apart in the higher field angles across the film plane, causing colour-fringing on contrasty edges.

I would agree with one of the guys earlier, who said there was no discernable difference in the Symmar-S and the Apo-Symmar , as really the Symmar-S is very well-corrected for longitudinal colour and lateral colour , and as good as the Apo-Symmar over most useful field angles , it's just that the Apo-symmar would have the edge on colour-fringing in the extreme outer parts of the image circle .

In the case of longitudinal ( secondary ) spectrum, the telephotos suffer quite badly from this effect , and I would expect a significant improvement going from a tele-Artar to eg. an Apo-Nikkor telephoto if used at wider apertures or with colour film .
These differences would reduce with smaller apertures and filtered ( B&W ) pictures .

Hope this helps
Mark Jeffs ( Qiotpiq UK, Pilkington PE Ltd, Carl Zeiss )


Welcome to the forum!

Mark J
20-Apr-2012, 08:11
Thanks for your greetings, guys !
I have been onto the forum quite often over the last 2-3 years to check info on film , developer and chemistry issues - there's a lot of great info and experience here .

Old-N-Feeble
20-Apr-2012, 10:20
Hey, Mark J, now that we're all friends I guess we all get 50 percent discounts on the latest/greatest/kewlest lenses, right? :D Asking too much? Ahh, okay then. It's great having your optics expertise here!!