Goerz-Berlin never made "gold" lenses, did they?

[John Schneider]

This looks to me (eBay 220953604824) like somebody aftermarket anodized a gold rim, but I could be wrong ?!?

[E. von Hoegh]

That's not a Goerz Berlin lens, it's a B&J remount. The clue is the "Series" should be "Serie".Also, if it was real, it would say "Doppel Anastigmat Dagor" or maybe just "Doppel Anastigmat", with this serial number.

To answer your question, CPG Berlin never made a gold dot or gold rim lens.

[Steve Hamley]

No, they didn't. Most were brass under the black paint, so most likely you're looking at a nice patina on brass.

The seller should, and probably does know better.

It would be a nice lens at about $200-250.

Cheers, Steve

[Louis Pacilla]

I'll be honest goes. I would NOT trust columbuscameragroup with much bought on their word.This is from personal experience with this used camera shop in Columbus Ohio.

Not to be confused with the wonderful Dealings I have had with MPX Mid-West photo Exchange. They are tops.

[John Schneider]

I would NOT trust columbuscameragroup with much bought on their word. Not to be confused with the wonderful Dealings I have had with MPX Mid-West photo Exchange. They are tops.

I agree on both counts. I just hadn't seen such a lens before; not that I was going to buy it at their price. I had totally forgotten about the B&J "Series" vs. "Serie", that explains a lot. Thanks all for your input!

[E. von Hoegh]

I agree on both counts. I just hadn't seen such a lens before; not that I was going to buy it at their price. I had totally forgotten about the B&J "Series" vs. "Serie", that explains a lot. Thanks all for your input!

The hell of it is, those B&J remounts can be perfectly good lenses. They can also be crap, you have to check them out. I know of a 10 3/4" B&J Dagor that is just lovely.

But I'd never buy one without testing it.

[Mark Sawyer]

I just hadn't seen such a lens before; not that I was going to buy it at their price.

But that makes it rare, and a "must have for your collection"! :rolleyes:

I'm not completely familiar with all the different incarnations of Goerz, so educate me if I'm wrong... The 130xxx seial number would indicate it's an early uncoated Dagor, but the gold rims/dotd were a marketing ploy for later coated Dagors in the 700xxx serial numbers and later. B&J may have coated it and polished the brass rim, though. But unscrupulouis buyers will sometimes polish the black finish off a front rim to have a "Gold Rim Dagor".

Am I right is assuming the only difference between the Gold Rim/Dot Dagors and the non-Gold 700xxx+ Dagors is cosmetic?

And my personal experience is that early Dagors are not as sharp in the corners as later Dagors, so even coated and mounted in a modern shutter, this one would probably not perform as well as a later version.

[Leigh]

Mark,

Don't confuse the gold dot and gold rim Dagors.

I have a Made-in-Switzerland Gold Dot Dagor with s/n 20024xx. The dot is engraved in the bezel, then filled with gold paint.
The dot location, between the f/f6,8 and the serial number, indicate that it's factory-original, just like the Red-Dot Artars.
http://www.mayadate.org/pix/Goerz_Front_0305cr.jpg

It seems the "gold rim" version was just a marketing ploy by the US importer.

- Leigh

[E. von Hoegh]

Mark,

Don't confuse the gold rim and gold dot Dagors.

I have a Made-in-Switzerland Gold Dot Dagor with s/n 20024xx.

It seems the "gold rim" version was just a marketing ploy by the US importer.

- Leigh

Leigh, there was no US importer for the gold rim Dagors. They were made on Long Island. Supposedly, they had new glass and better collimation. But that is anecdotal info, I have no idea if it's true/accurate.

[Leonard Robertson]

So are you saying B&J actually made up counterfeit front rings with Goerz name on them? I've read vague things of B&J making up lenses from various parts, but didn't realize they went to that much trouble.

I have the same opinion as Louis regarding Columbus Camera. I had a bad experience way back in the days when I was buying through ads in "Shutterbug". Likely none of the people involved are still working there, but the company name is still the same. When I click on an eBay auction and see their name, I automatically click off the page. From their feedback, I guess they are doing a decent job as far as most buyers are concerned, though.

Len

[E. von Hoegh]

So are you saying B&J actually made up counterfeit front rings with Goerz name on them? I've read vague things of B&J making up lenses from various parts, but didn't realize they went to that much trouble.



Len

Yes, they did. They remounted the glass in cells, and put them in shutters.. Carl Meyer was one of their names as well, playing on the popularity and quality of Hugo Meyer and Carl Zeiss. It seems Ernemann was used, too.http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?p=838212#post838212

[Mark Sawyer]

Mark,

Don't confuse the gold dot and gold rim Dagors.

I have a Made-in-Switzerland Gold Dot Dagor with s/n 20024xx. The dot is engraved in the bezel, then filled with gold paint.
The dot location, between the f/f6,8 and the serial number, indicate that it's factory-original, just like the Red-Dot Artars.

It seems the "gold rim" version was just a marketing ploy by the US importer.

- Leigh

Hi, Leigh ~ I was thinking of the non-Swiss Gold Dots, like this from the CP Goerz American Optical Co,:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-GOERZ-AM-OPT-CO-6in-6-8-GOLD-DOT-DAGOR-large-format-lens-6-6-inch-150mm-/110823707449?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item19cd9b9339

As I said, there are just too many versions of Goerz and the Dagor for me to keep track of! :confused:

(Attachment for when the listing disappears)

[Louis Pacilla]

So are you saying B&J actually made up counterfeit front rings with Goerz name on them? I've read vague things of B&J making up lenses from various parts, but didn't realize they went to that much trouble.

I have the same opinion as Louis regarding Columbus Camera. I had a bad experience way back in the days when I was buying through ads in "Shutterbug". Likely none of the people involved are still working there, but the company name is still the same. When I click on an eBay auction and see their name, I automatically click off the page. From their feedback, I guess they are doing a decent job as far as most buyers are concerned, though.

Len

Hey Len I had bad dealings with an owner of CCG not that long ago. For one he will treat poorly IF he knows your friends w/ Jim at MPX.

He has a Bitter rivalry with MPX. Though MPX could care less about CCG .It's kind of silly but I have witnessed his shiity attitude and dealings as well as receiving the poor treatment. The best part was I was in his store with a pocket full ready to BUY. I left the store with empty hands and full pocket.

Anything I asked to see would prompt him to want to raise the price as I studied the item. Kind of like I knew something about the item he didn't. He assumed he had under priced it. It was a very strange experience. The funny thing was he was high (price wise) on most of the items I looked at.:eek:

Your experience may vary .:)

[E. von Hoegh]

Hi, Leigh ~ I was thinking of the non-Swiss Gold Dots, like this from the CP Goerz American Optical Co,:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-GOERZ-AM-OPT-CO-6in-6-8-GOLD-DOT-DAGOR-large-format-lens-6-6-inch-150mm-/110823707449?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item19cd9b9339

(Attachment for when the listing disappears)

Those came after the gold rim, I don't know precisely what the improvements were. Made in the US though,(as were the gold rims) and truly great lenses.

[David Lindquist]

Those came after the gold rim, I don't know precisely what the improvements were. Made in the US though,(as were the gold rims) and truly great lenses.

The March 1986 issue of "Shutterbug" had a letter from Edward Bolsetzian who worked at C.P. Goerz American Optical Co./ Goerz Optical Co., Inc. It included this paragraph:

"The best Dagors were made after 1963 when Goerz perfected a device to centralize the elements within two seconds of arc. This is equivalent to five feet in 100 miles. How do I know this? I built the device and also filled in as a lens fitter from time to time."

In his history of the Dagor published in the January 1972 issue of Popular Photography, Bob Schwalberg notes that the "Gold Dot" Dagor relaced the "Golden Dagor" in 1963. So maybe the name change had to do with this improvement in the methodology of centering. Or maybe not. Nice to know for sure, I think.
David Lindquist

[Leonard Robertson]

Yes, they did. They remounted the glass in cells, and put them in shutters.. Carl Meyer was one of their names as well, playing on the popularity and quality of Hugo Meyer and Carl Zeiss. It seems Ernemann was used, too.http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?p=838212#post838212

I suppose if B&J had a machinist who worked cheap, this was economically doable, for someone with minimal ethics anyway. The 1951 Goerz catalog on page 5 has a warning about this: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_3.html I recall reading that warning many years ago and wondering what Goerz was referring to.

I have about 20 Goerz lenses, but only a couple of Berliners. I checked the 150mm and it is a proper "Serie". The other is a ancient brass barrel I doubt anyone would have counterfeited back then. But don't know about my American versions. Probably nothing to lose sleep over.

It is my understanding Goerz Berlin and Goerz American used different serial number systems, so dating a Berliner using the American number list isn't accurate. And there isn't a number list for the Berlin lenses. Does that sound right?

Len

[E. von Hoegh]

I suppose if B&J had a machinist who worked cheap, this was economically doable, for someone with minimal ethics anyway. The 1951 Goerz catalog on page 5 has a warning about this: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_3.html I recall reading that warning many years ago and wondering what Goerz was referring to.

I have about 20 Goerz lenses, but only a couple of Berliners. I checked the 150mm and it is a proper "Serie". The other is a ancient brass barrel I doubt anyone would have counterfeited back then. But don't know about my American versions. Probably nothing to lose sleep over.

It is my understanding Goerz Berlin and Goerz American used different serial number systems, so dating a Berliner using the American number list isn't accurate. And there isn't a number list for the Berlin lenses. Does that sound right?

Len

I don't know of a serial list for Goerz Berlin. Goerz New York was a susidiary of the main firm until it split off around the end of WW1. War reparations? Quite likely.

[edp]

I don't know of a serial list for Goerz Berlin.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=402509&postcount=4

[Michael Jones]

Goerz New York was a susidiary of the main firm until it split off around the end of WW1. War reparations? Quite likely.

Its my recollection that is what happened after WWII. And about when the Gold & Golden dagor began showing up. Len Jones (no relation) posted a history one time about this as did Richard Knoppow that I recall was more about marketing excess inventory than "fraud." (If you own the name, its not fraud.)

Of course, one could go here:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/classic-experts.html

for more info.

Mike

[Lynn Jones]

I used to be VP of B&J. The owner George Drucker, bought the original German Goerz company from Zeiss (it a long story because of WWI). All of the Goerz made lenses were re-named Goerz-Berlin as were the B&J manufactured Goerz lenses (yes B&J made lenses in Chicago for about 70 years) based on the tooling and information purchased from Goerz as well as there own designs and several other lens types by contract (including some very famous soft focus). Also, B&J bought many lenses after WWII using their own names or B&J. I ran this division for several years as the B&J Lens Bank.

Goerz lenses from 19th and early 20th century, became briefly part of Zeiss because of WWI, sold to B&J in about 1927 or so.

Goerz lenses made in the USA by arrangement with original Goerz prior to WWI. Ownership was changed several times. Regional sales manager needed 6 Dagors but the bezels had not been plated (black) so Harry said send them anyway, I just changed them to the improved Golden Dagors.

Goerz lenses (Goerz-Berlin) legally purchased by B&J in USA

In the 1970's Schneider bought the remnants (paper work only) of the American Goerz, re-designed the ones they liked and created the "Gold Dot", and the "Blue Dot Tricor" that I can remember. There was a very long waiting list for these lenses which were originally made in Switzerland by Kern, I don't know if Schneider ever actually made them although some of the Kern built were made, but they said Schneider no matter where they were made.

Lynn

[E. von Hoegh]

Goerz lenses from 19th and early 20th century, became briefly part of Zeiss because of WWI, sold to B&J in about 1927 or so.



Lynn

Why did Zeiss continue to make and sell lenses marked "Carl Zeiss Jena Goerz Dagor" from ca. 1926 up to WW2?

[Lynn Jones]

To E. von Hoegh (by the way, I like your name, I teach Photo History),

They could have, if they wished because they lost patent and copyright rights due to WWI, also for the same reason winners of the war restricted the use of lenses for possible military use to only one company which is why Goerz was forced to be part of Zeiss. In this time period, Zeiss and Goerz were enemies of one another, sort of like the old days of Ford and Chevvy. The dislike (more like hatred) between the companies is the reason the Zeiss sold Goerz to B&J because in hurt the sales of both companies. There were many lenses made with the trade name Zeiss-Goerz but they largely didn't sell very well. My guess to you, E. von, is that Zeiss did not have a good wide field lens but the 65 degree coverage of the well known Dagor would probably still sell well even with the dislikes often seen. Also the Plasmat while invented in 1918 at Meyer Gorlitz by Paul Rudolph was not critically sharp due to the lack of an appropriate optical glass which would permit that. This lens was sometimes called a "Plastic Lens" indicating that it was soft focus. As glasses got better that type lens got better and was pretty good into WWII. However they were the best when "rare earth" glasses became availabel

Also the sale of Goerz is thought to be 1927 it could be +/- 1 year. George Drucker was a career long friend of mine whom I knew from about 1963 or 64 until his death in about 1987 or 88, even he didn't remember precisely the date of the sale.

Lynn

[David Lindquist]

Why did Zeiss continue to make and sell lenses marked "Carl Zeiss Jena Goerz Dagor" from ca. 1926 up to WW2?

Or how was I able to buy a Gold Dot Dagor in 1969, four years before Schneider Corp. of America acquired Goerz Optical Co., Inc. To say nothing of the historical record I cite above that the "Gold Dot Dagor" replaced the "Golden Dagor" in 1963.

David Lindquist

[David Lindquist]

To E. von Hoegh (by the way, I like your name, I teach Photo History),

They could have, if they wished because they lost patent and copyright rights due to WWI, also for the same reason winners of the war restricted the use of lenses for possible military use to only one company which is why Goerz was forced to be part of Zeiss. In this time period, Zeiss and Goerz were enemies of one another, sort of like the old days of Ford and Chevvy. The dislike (more like hatred) between the companies is the reason the Zeiss sold Goerz to B&J because in hurt the sales of both companies. There were many lenses made with the trade name Zeiss-Goerz but they largely didn't sell very well. My guess to you, E. von, is that Zeiss did not have a good wide field lens but the 65 degree coverage of the well known Dagor would probably still sell well even with the dislikes often seen. Also the Plasmat while invented in 1918 at Meyer Gorlitz by Paul Rudolph was not critically sharp due to the lack of an appropriate optical glass which would permit that. This lens was sometimes called a "Plastic Lens" indicating that it was soft focus. As glasses got better that type lens got better and was pretty good into WWII. However they were the best when "rare earth" glasses became availabel

Also the sale of Goerz is thought to be 1927 it could be +/- 1 year. George Drucker was a career long friend of mine whom I knew from about 1963 or 64 until his death in about 1987 or 88, even he didn't remember precisely the date of the sale.

Lynn

Am I the only one who finds this confusing and unconvincing?
David Lindquist

[Floyd Waller]

Don't be confused by Lynn Jones. Feel fortunate that he shares his knowledge with you. I have known Lynn as a good friend for almost thirty years and have always relished his knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject. That he has held the many important positions that he has had in this very subject area speaks to his expertise.

[E. von Hoegh]

Don't be confused by Lynn Jones. Feel fortunate that he shares his knowledge with you. I have known Lynn as a good friend for almost thirty years and have always relished his knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject. That he has held the many important positions that he has had in this very subject area speaks to his expertise.

I would be grateful, if the information was accurate.

[Songyun]

Hey Louis, Is the person you talked to named Eric? Yes, he is a jerk. Some other ppls worked there are nice. I can not believe that they can run business with that guy.

Hey Len I had bad dealings with an owner of CCG not that long ago. For one he will treat poorly IF he knows your friends w/ Jim at MPX.

He has a Bitter rivalry with MPX. Though MPX could care less about CCG .It's kind of silly but I have witnessed his shiity attitude and dealings as well as receiving the poor treatment. The best part was I was in his store with a pocket full ready to BUY. I left the store with empty hands and full pocket.

Anything I asked to see would prompt him to want to raise the price as I studied the item. Kind of like I knew something about the item he didn't. He assumed he had under priced it. It was a very strange experience. The funny thing was he was high (price wise) on most of the items I looked at.:eek:

Your experience may vary .:)

[Lynn Jones]

I have no idea, David, I've been in this business for over 64 years and I don't remember any "Golden Dagors" as early as you do. I do remember that Harry told me about the Goldens (a regional sales managerfor Goerz) it would have been around 65 or 66, however, you could certainly be right, at that time I was the #2 guy in sales and marketing with Calumet. We were making lenses in the US under the name of Caltar, S Caltar, and WF Caltar. The manufacturing was by Ilex Optical and the design types by Bill Ryan, Manny Kiner, and Me. Regarding your recollection time of Gold Dot, I'd like to hear more about that, I'm always willing to learn.

Lynn

[David Lindquist]

I have no idea, David, I've been in this business for over 64 years and I don't remember any "Golden Dagors" as early as you do. I do remember that Harry told me about the Goldens (a regional sales managerfor Goerz) it would have been around 65 or 66, however, you could certainly be right, at that time I was the #2 guy in sales and marketing with Calumet. We were making lenses in the US under the name of Caltar, S Caltar, and WF Caltar. The manufacturing was by Ilex Optical and the design types by Bill Ryan, Manny Kiner, and Me. Regarding your recollection time of Gold Dot, I'd like to hear more about that, I'm always willing to learn.

Lynn

I'll be happy to put together what I know from the (largely) written evidence I have. Please bear with me, it'll probably take me until tomorrow to get it organized.
David

[David Lindquist]

Hi, Leigh ~ I was thinking of the non-Swiss Gold Dots, like this from the CP Goerz American Optical Co,:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-GOERZ-AM-OPT-CO-6in-6-8-GOLD-DOT-DAGOR-large-format-lens-6-6-inch-150mm-/110823707449?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item19cd9b9339

As I said, there are just too many versions of Goerz and the Dagor for me to keep track of! :confused:

(Attachment for when the listing disappears)

Leigh and Mark- Just to add more to the body of fascinating minutiae about Dagors: I have two American made Dagors, both engraved Goerz Optical Co. Inc. One is a 6 inch Dagor, s/n 8235xx, purchased new in 1969. It's mounted in brass (and in a Compur shutter). The gold dot is between "INC." and "Dagor" looks like it might have been done by a sort of spot facing with a center cutting 1/16 inch end mill.
The 12 inch Dagor, s/n 8404xx has its gold dot in the same location. Looks like it was done as Leigh described, a small circular indent was engraved/ spot faced and then filled with gold paint. I expect this lens has an aluminum alloy mount.

Incidentally the best information I've seen for when the company name changed from "C.P. Goerz Am. Opt. Co." to "Goerz Optical Co. Inc" is from a posting Kerry Thalmann made to APUG 11-23-08. There he said he had a May 1964 Goerz price list with the former name and a December 1964 price list with the latter name.

David

[Leigh]

Hi David,

Just to add a bit more confusion...

The lens I showed above says Goerz Optical Co. Inc. DAGOR 8 1/4" f:6,8 on the front.
The inch dimension and Inc. would indicate a US company, but the comma as a decimal separator is European.
It says "Made in Switzerland" on the back. The front and back cells have matching serial numbers.
It's mounted in a silver-rim Copal 1 shutter.


- Leigh

[David Lindquist]

Hi David,

Just to add a bit more confusion...

The lens I showed above says Goerz Optical Co. Inc. DAGOR 8 1/4" f:6,8 on the front.
The inch dimension and Inc. would indicate a US company, but the comma as a decimal separator is European.
It says "Made in Switzerland" on the back. The front and back cells have matching serial numbers.
It's mounted in a silver-rim Copal 1 shutter.


- Leigh

Egad, yet more fascinating minutiae. I have a record of a Dagor spotting on ebay of an 8 1/4 inch GD Dagor marked Goerz Optical Co. that was also marked on the rear cell as having been made in Switzerland. I didn't note specifically if "inc." was included or if it was marked "6.8" or "6,8". My guess, let me emphasize GUESS, is these represent early Swiss production after the acquisition of G.O.C. by Schneider Corp. of America and how this line was eventually to be labeled hadn't been settled.
David

[Mark Sawyer]

As long as we've got some interested parties here, I have an oddly marked little Dagor that perhaps someone can shed light on. Its engraving reads:

C.P. GOERZ BERLIN DAGOR Series III f:6.8 8 1/2 in. No. RS507

The back element is engraved simply "507", and yes, it has an "s" at the end of "Series". I've just never seen a serial number like that on any other Dagor...

[TheDeardorffGuy]

Years ago I was contacted by the son in law of Hans Rotterweise (SP?) Hans was the B&J repairman / Lens polisher / Lens coater. When he retired he had no pension so the Drucker gave him literally hundreds of lenses and shutters. There were coffee cans full of Dagor elements wrapped in tissue with serial numbers from Goerz. My first trip I took about 150 Dagors from 6in to 14in. Most of these were marked BERLIN DAGOR SERIES III. I did CLA on the shutters and glass and listed them in Shutterbug. Sold around 1 dozen and were ready to pay the son in law when the new owners started calling telling me the lenses: A. Would not focus B changed focus with a change of f stop C Had different areas of focus. Yikes! I refunded all but 2 customers money upon return of the lenses. Those 2 were fine. I set up my V11 Deardorff with a universal Iris flange and started testing. Out of 150 lenses there were 20 that were OK. Just 20!. I returned all of them and took about 50 more. This time I took what looked like genuine german built lenses. These also had issues. They had been reground and polished and not very well. The cans full of elements had note stating they were "second quality".
I returned these and washed my hands of the whole deal. I heard he sold the whole lot. Never trust a BERLIN DAGOR SERIES III. Test first

[TheDeardorffGuy]

Egad, yet more fascinating minutiae. I have a record of a Dagor spotting on ebay of an 8 1/4 inch GD Dagor marked Goerz Optical Co. that was also marked on the rear cell as having been made in Switzerland. I didn't note specifically if "inc." was included or if it was marked "6.8" or "6,8". My guess, let me emphasize GUESS, is these represent early Swiss production after the acquisition of G.O.C. by Schneider Corp. of America and how this line was eventually to be labeled hadn't been settled.
David

I do not think Schneider ground and polished any of the glass they sold with the "New Dagors" There were too many that were not as sharp as they should have been. I think they assembled new old stock lenses into new mounts.

[TheDeardorffGuy]

I used to be VP of B&J. The owner George Drucker, bought the original German Goerz company from Zeiss (it a long story because of WWI). All of the Goerz made lenses were re-named Goerz-Berlin as were the B&J manufactured Goerz lenses (yes B&J made lenses in Chicago for about 70 years) based on the tooling and information purchased from Goerz as well as there own designs and several other lens types by contract (including some very famous soft focus). Also, B&J bought many lenses after WWII using their own names or B&J. I ran this division for several years as the B&J Lens Bank.

Goerz lenses from 19th and early 20th century, became briefly part of Zeiss because of WWI, sold to B&J in about 1927 or so.

Goerz lenses made in the USA by arrangement with original Goerz prior to WWI. Ownership was changed several times. Regional sales manager needed 6 Dagors but the bezels had not been plated (black) so Harry said send them anyway, I just changed them to the improved Golden Dagors.

Goerz lenses (Goerz-Berlin) legally purchased by B&J in USA

In the 1970's Schneider bought the remnants (paper work only) of the American Goerz, re-designed the ones they liked and created the "Gold Dot", and the "Blue Dot Tricor" that I can remember. There was a very long waiting list for these lenses which were originally made in Switzerland by Kern, I don't know if Schneider ever actually made them although some of the Kern built were made, but they said Schneider no matter where they were made.

Lynn

Kollmorgan was in there somewhere too. I thought they owned Goerz American Optical for a while.

[John Schneider]

I have an oddly marked little Dagor that perhaps someone can shed light on. Its engraving reads:

C.P. GOERZ BERLIN DAGOR Series III f:6.8 8 1/2 in. No. RS507

The back element is engraved simply "507", and yes, it has an "s" at the end of "Series". I've just never seen a serial number like that on any other Dagor...

Lenses with a s/n beginning with "R" and then 6 numerals were process Dagors, of the same design as the Trigor, Argyle, etc., and had apertures beginning at f10 or so (mine is packed away). They didn't say "Dagor" and certainly weren't marked f6.8. Goerz process lenses that had a s/n beginning with "S" and then 6 numerals were Artars. This doesn't shed any light on your lens, but Goerz did use serial numbers beginning with "R" or "S", but I never heard of an "RS" until now...:confused:

[Scotty230358]

I have a 120mm f6.8 Berlin Series III in the same shutter. After posting my confusion about its provenance on this forum the final conclusion was that it was a B&J remount. Its a sharp lens but not as contrasty as my 125mm Fujinon. I paid less than $200 for it and for the money got a perfectly usable extremely compact wide angle lens for those times when I was hill walking and wanted to minimise weight. The only thing I had to do was have a custom filter ring made as the filter threads on the lens were very non standard.

I would not pay nearly $600 for a Berlin Series III thats for sure.

[E. von Hoegh]

As long as we've got some interested parties here, I have an oddly marked little Dagor that perhaps someone can shed light on. Its engraving reads:

C.P. GOERZ BERLIN DAGOR Series III f:6.8 8 1/2 in. No. RS507

The back element is engraved simply "507", and yes, it has an "s" at the end of "Series". I've just never seen a serial number like that on any other Dagor...

Another B&J. The clue is "Series" on a purportedly German lens.

[David Lindquist]

Kollmorgan was in there somewhere too. I thought they owned Goerz American Optical for a while.

Kollmorgen bought Goerz Optical Co., Inc. sometime between October 1967 and August 1970. My evidence for this is a price list dated 10/10/67 titled "Goerz Optical Co. Inc." and a price list dated 8/1/70 titled "Photographic Products Division Goerz Optical Co. Inc. A Subsidiary of Kollmorgen".

David

[Thebes]

I'll be honest goes. I would NOT trust columbuscameragroup with much bought on their word.This is from personal experience with this used camera shop in Columbus Ohio.

Not to be confused with the wonderful Dealings I have had with MPX Mid-West photo Exchange. They are tops.

I bought my first 4x5 from CCG on an IU field trip to Columbus about fifteen years ago. I was warned away from the shop by professors, but Mpex didn't have any really cheap 4x5s that day. CCG did, they had a lot of cheap junk and a few decent cameras at poor prices. I did ok on an old grey Calumet user, got what I needed. I also paid a low price on some holders that were junk but which they insisted should be good. I've done worse over the years from others, but they reminded me of sleazy used car salesmen. I would consider buying from them again, maybe, if they were the only shop with what I wanted and it was cheap.

Mpex is one of the best, but they don't have much used LF gear on their website anymore.

[Steve Hamley]

I'll add a good word for CCG - I bought 10 used 5x7 holders off eBay from them, late holders with plastic pulls, for about $22 each delivered. They're great low-mileage holders, clean and a very good buy.

Cheers, Steve

[Marc B.]

It would seem the folks at CCG have reacted to this thread.
They have reduced the price to $399.00, and re-listed the lens as a 'possible fake.'

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220953604824?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[Lynn Jones]

David, I seem to remember that Kollmorgen was the last owner of Goerz USA in the mid 60's (for me that was 45 or 46 years ago when I was in my mid 30's) . Since I was at Calumet from Jan 1964and we were heavily involved in LF, in 1964 we discontinued the purchase of American Goerz lenses due to serious quality control problems, 1 out of 2 or 3 would be returned in warranty and they complained bitterly. In that time frame we also had problems with Symmars. 1 out of 5 or 6 would be returned due to lens separation or Compur failure (although we kept Schneider because they always replaced defective stock, regardless). We had no trouble with Kodak LF lenses even though the the Ilex shutters were pretty klunky, they always worked and we virtually never had returns. Our problem with Kodak was the letter that told us they were discontinuing "professional lenses" in late 1965 (although there was a pretty considerable stock in their warehouses which would last for two or three years. For these reasons, we contacted the new ownership of Ilex, the president of whom I had known personally for several years as had the head of our sales and marketing department. The Ilex/Caltar manufacturing and sales relationship worked well for us for several years until the Ilex president was so severely injured in an accident that he couldn't work again. We used the same Ilex lenses when I was with B&J and BBOI, very successfully.

Now the story that we all knew in the 60's. A very wealthy gentleman had a daughter who was married to a recently graduated physicist, he bought Goerz (USA) for the daughter and son-in-law. The management was not successful and the company crashed. Later Schneider bought the corporate shell.

Lynn

[Lynn Jones]

David, I seem to remember that Kollmorgen was the last owner of Goerz USA in the mid 60's (for me that was 45 or 46 years ago when I was in my mid 30's) . Since I was at Calumet from Jan 1964and we were heavily involved in LF, in 1964 we discontinued the purchase of American Goerz lenses due to serious quality control problems, 1 out of 2 or 3 would be returned in warranty and they complained bitterly. In that time frame we also had problems with Symmars. 1 out of 5 or 6 would be returned due to lens separation or Compur failure (although we kept Schneider because they always replaced defective stock, regardless). We had no trouble with Kodak LF lenses even though the the Ilex shutters were pretty klunky, they always worked and we virtually never had returns. Our problem with Kodak was the letter that told us they were discontinuing "professional lenses" in late 1965 (although there was a pretty considerable stock in their warehouses which would last for two or three years. For these reasons, we contacted the new ownership of Ilex, the president of whom I had known personally for several years as had the head of our sales and marketing department. The Ilex/Caltar manufacturing and sales relationship worked well for us for several years until the Ilex president was so severely injured in an accident that he couldn't work again. We used the same Ilex lenses when I was with B&J and BBOI, very successfully.

Now the story that we all knew in the 60's. A very wealthy gentleman had a daughter who was married to a recently graduated physicist, he bought Goerz (USA) for the daughter and son-in-law. The management was not successful and the company crashed after a few years. Later Schneider bought the corporate shell.

Lynn

[David Lindquist]

David, I seem to remember that Kollmorgen was the last owner of Goerz USA in the mid 60's (for me that was 45 or 46 years ago when I was in my mid 30's) . Since I was at Calumet from Jan 1964and we were heavily involved in LF, in 1964 we discontinued the purchase of American Goerz lenses due to serious quality control problems, 1 out of 2 or 3 would be returned in warranty and they complained bitterly. In that time frame we also had problems with Symmars. 1 out of 5 or 6 would be returned due to lens separation or Compur failure (although we kept Schneider because they always replaced defective stock, regardless). We had no trouble with Kodak LF lenses even though the the Ilex shutters were pretty klunky, they always worked and we virtually never had returns. Our problem with Kodak was the letter that told us they were discontinuing "professional lenses" in late 1965 (although there was a pretty considerable stock in their warehouses which would last for two or three years. For these reasons, we contacted the new ownership of Ilex, the president of whom I had known personally for several years as had the head of our sales and marketing department. The Ilex/Caltar manufacturing and sales relationship worked well for us for several years until the Ilex president was so severely injured in an accident that he couldn't work again. We used the same Ilex lenses when I was with B&J and BBOI, very successfully.

Now the story that we all knew in the 60's. A very wealthy gentleman had a daughter who was married to a recently graduated physicist, he bought Goerz (USA) for the daughter and son-in-law. The management was not successful and the company crashed after a few years. Later Schneider bought the corporate shell.

Lynn

Thank you for this Lynn. here's a bit I might add from what written documents I have.

1. I have a Goerz price list dated 10/10/67 which is titled simply "Goerz Optical Co., Inc."; the next newest one I have is dated 8/1/70 and is labeled "Photographic Products Div. Goerz Optical Co., Inc. A Subsidiary of Kollmorgen" This would indicate Kollmorgen acquired the company between October 1967 and August 1970. (Anyone out there have any Goerz literature within this time frame that could narrow down the date of Kollmorgen's acquiring G.O.C.?)

2. I have a Schneider Corporation of America informational pamphlet that says that Schneider Corporation of America was established January 1, 1972 as a wholly owned U.S. subsidiary of Schneider. Further it says that S.C.A. will handle all sales of "the former Goerz lines of lenses." In addition they will handle the ISCO line in the U.S. And while S.C.A will handle sales of Schneider lenses to U.S. industrial customers, consumer sales will continue to be handled by Burleigh Brooks. Arguably this shows that Goerz became part of Schneider via, Schneider Corporation of America, in 1972.

3. Also I have a letter on Schneider Corporation of America dated September 18, 1973 regarding the availability of of the 8 1/4 inch Gold Dot Dagor.

David Lindquist

[Leigh]

Also I have a letter on Schneider Corporation of America dated September 18, 1973 regarding the availability of of the 8 1/4 inch Gold Dot Dagor.
Hi David,

I have that lens, probably of that vintage.

What does the letter say?

TIA

- Leigh

[David Lindquist]

Hi David,

I have that lens, probably of that vintage.

What does the letter say?

TIA

- Leigh

Condensing and paraphrasing to some extent, Mr. Sidney Falek (Administrative Vice President of S.C.A.) said that the 8 1/4 inch Dagor had been unavailable for the last 6 months as they had "acquired from Goerz a somewhat depleted stock of these lenses" during the period of taking over the business. Also "detailed technical and engineering work had to be done before we could provide new production." Mr. Falek went on to say "...at this very time 8 1/4" Gold Dot Dagors are in production, and we expect our initial deliveries around January 1974."

I didn't pursue getting one of these. Not sure why now.
David

[Leigh]

Thanks, David.

Very interesting. Mine was made in Switzerland, and is mounted in a Copal #1 shutter that could be of that era.

- Leigh

[goamules]

wrong thread