Ideas On Lenses That Fit This Criteria? Does It Exist?

[Fragomeni]

Hi all,

I'm interested in finding out it there is a "fast" lens that will cover 11x14 that is around 500mm. By fast I mean around f5.6 or f6.8 (fast for the format). The closest I've found is the Nikkor 450mm f9 which I already have. Wondering if there is anythng that matches these specs closer. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Dan Fromm]

Search the catalogs here: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/info.html

[Fragomeni]

I'll check it out. Thanks for the link, Dan.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Goerz Dogmar 500/4.5 (actually have 2 of these)
Zeiss Tessar 500/5 (actually have this one also)

both have a really nice look to them

[Oren Grad]

Either the 480 (Apo-)Sironar-N or the 480 Apo-Symmar in Copal 3 will cover 11x14 comfortably and get you all the way to... f/8.4. :) AFAIK that's as close as you're going to get in a modern, shutter-mounted lens. If you want something faster it will have to be in barrel, older or both.

[Armin Seeholzer]

My Xenar 480 mm would maybe also fit the bill!

http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/xenar/data/4,5-480mm.html

But not fully open I think!

[Fragomeni]

Paul, thanks! I'm curious how difficult to find these are. Wanna part with one possibly?

Oren, thanks as well! Something modern in a Copal would be ideal but I can make sure with something old and in a barrel of it gives me what I want. I work a lot with paper Neha anyway so a barrel lenses aren't usually a problem for me.

[Fragomeni]

Thanks Armin! I'll check that out too.

Appreciate the help everyone!

[William Whitaker]

If you want something faster it will have to be in barrel, older or both.

An 11x14 Tessar 1c will get you in the neighborhood. But it's heavy and difficult to find. Also check the old Gundlach and Wollensak catalogs. Gundlach made a Perigraphic for 11x14. It was a 16/25 1/2/34 triple convertible. It was ƒ/5.6 at the 16" focal length, but that's shorter than you say you want.

An 11 1/2" Verito with the front element removed will give you a 20" lens that's around ƒ/7. It would probably cover 11x14. The 14 1/2" Verito in the same configuration will give you a 24" lens at around ƒ/6.6. And the 18" Verito with the 22 1/4" "extension" cell will give you about ƒ/5. The last will surely cover 11x14 and most of your studio wall. Another possibility is a 17x20 Versar which is an ƒ/6 design with a focal length of about 22 1/2". No doubt there are others.

At these dimensions, shutters are limited to Studio shutter, a Packard or your lens cap. Forget the Copal. The aperture of a lens this size and speed is going to be necessarily large.

[jp]

My 19" f4.5 B&L sigmar would do it. There are some big tessars which would be cheaper and more common and be very nice. You can get a 610/f6 aero-tessar which is a beast also.

[Hermes07]

I have a Zeiss Tessar 500/4.5 which is an excellent lens and covers nicely.

I also have an 18" Beseler lens - it's a triplet designed for projection but it's very fast (can't remember exactly but I think it's around the f/3.5 mark) and surprisingly light. If speed is what matters most then this is worth considering especially if you're shooting portraits. Fast triplets like these fall somewhere between corrected/sharp anastigmats and full-on soft focus lenses.

[Leonard Robertson]

Igor's http://www.igorcamera.com/lenses_in_barrel.htm shows an f/6.8 20" 11X14 Turner-Reich convertible in barrel. I have no idea if this is a worthwhile lens, I just happened to see it there this morning, and it seems to fit your criteria.

Len

[Louis Pacilla]

Igor's http://www.igorcamera.com/lenses_in_barrel.htm shows an f/6.8 20" 11X14 Turner-Reich convertible in barrel. I have no idea if this is a worthwhile lens, I just happened to see it there this morning, and it seems to fit your criteria.

Len

It's a 15" 11x14 TR. They NEVER made the Triple convertible larger than 15". I pretty sure he got it wrong when he listed it. I would check with him.

They did make the series III f6.8 which is a symmetrical It came in at least three FL being 14", 17"and 21" double convertible.

[Hermes07]

Whilst we're linking to lenses we've stumbled across that might fit the bill, here is a 480mm f/5.5 Celor I spotted earlier (no affiliation, no idea if it's a good price).


http://www.ebay.com/itm/u95-antique-German-lens-CELOR-480-mm-1-5-5-GOERZ-BERLIN-large-format-camera-/330650712260?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item4cfc5178c4#ht_3088wt_1163

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"Paul, thanks! I'm curious how difficult to find these are."

Rare as hen's teeth, they were WWI aero-recon lenses for zeppelins, cover 14x17" at inf.

"Wanna part with one possibly?"

I'll sell anything for lots and lots of money. :D
Shipping's a bear, they're big, heavy and delicate. :eek:

Others to look for: (all big and expensive)

Voigtlander Heliar 480/4.5
Goerz Dogmar 480/5.5
B&L Tessar 14x17"/6.3
B&L Aero-tessar 610/6
B&L Unar 18'/4.5
B&L petzval 16"/4 converts to 20"/5 (soft focus)
Wollensak Varium 19"/4
Wollensak Verito 18"/4
really big petzvals

Have fun with the hunt.

[Ole Tjugen]

Maybe the 550mm f:5.5 Schneider Göttingen Aerotar will work too.

And there's the Zeiss/Krauss 500mm f:4.5 Tessar, which seems to be the most common big fast lens - at least in Europe.

I have one of each of these, but haven't tried either on bigger film than 24x30cm (9 1/2 x 12").

[Leonard Robertson]

It's a 15" 11x14 TR. They NEVER made the Triple convertible larger than 15". I pretty sure he got it wrong when he listed it. I would check with him.

They did make the series III f6.8 which is a symmetrical It came in at least three FL being 14", 17"and 21" double convertible.

Louis - When I first saw that description this morning, I thought 20" sounded too long for an 11X14 T-R. Yes, the "normal" FL for T-R triples (using both cells)was 10 1/2" for full plate, 12" for 8X10. and 15" for 11X14. But I looked in a 1928-29 Central Camera Company catalog, and it shows the separate cells for the 15"/11X14 lens as 24" back and 36" front. Igor's listing is for 20"/29"/34". Whether 29" and 34" inches comes close to making a 20", I have no idea. I suspect you are right, there is something not quite right in the listing, but I'm not sure where the error is. Central also indicates the 15" FL has a "working aperture" of f/7.5, rather than f/6.8 of the shorter FL T-Rs. Igor list their lens as f/6.8, which is suspect. But I don't have their lens in hand, so I don't really know what they have.

Over the years I've read several negative comments on the optical quality of T-R triples. "Optical disaster" was a favorite. I understand they had so many elements in each cell it was difficult to control the quality. So maybe some are wonderful, and others not so much. I have 3 or 4 of the things that mostly came with Cirkuts, but never shot with them enough to have an opinion. If I were buying one, I would want a return privilege. And of course, I don't know what "look" Francesco wants either.

Len

[Fragomeni]

First, I just want to say thanks to everyone who has offered ideas. I didn't think there were this many options! This is really fantastic!

I've searched the auction site for the lenses that have been listed. Below are the ones I found which have glass in the condition that I'm looking for. What do you all think about these and the prices?

1) Wollensak 14.5in/4 Verito (http://www.ebay.com/itm/370305683450?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1076wt_1188)
2) Zeiss E.Krauss Paris Tessar 4.5/500mm (http://www.ebay.com/itm/250963896656?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_6165wt_1002)
3) Aero Tessar f:6,0 / 24 inch (http://www.ebay.com/itm/270852779671?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1203)

The Aero Tessar is the cheapest but has no aperture (or any place to put one) and seemingly no way to mount it. I'd probably have to pass on this one.

The 14.5 in Wollensak and the Zeiss Krauss may work but I've got no idea if these are reasonable prices.

I actually just bought this 18" Beseler (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180817872659?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_500wt_1203) lens that Hermes07 recommended. For $32.95 I'll give it a try!

[Fragomeni]

I need to figure out how to mount the Beseler and if I can cut the barrel and make aperture inserts for it.

[Fragomeni]

Heres another Zeiss. Any ideas about this Zeiss Jena Triplet 4.8/500 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Jena-Triplet-4-8-500-mm-302800-Luftwaffe-/350516939691?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519c700bab#ht_2695wt_1188)?

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"I need to figure out how to mount the Beseler..."

If your lens board is 3/4" (20mm) thick you can bore the hole the same size as the barrel than use 2 thick rubber O-rings, front & rear, to hold it in place. Easy, clean and works well. If you make the hole a little large you can line it with book binder/ gaffer's tape.

" and if I can cut the barrel and make aperture inserts for it."

Don't know how the lens elements come out of this one but the cut should be easy.
Spare dark slides or 3-ring loose leaf binder plastic make very nice waterhouse stop plates.

"The Aero Tessar is the cheapest but has no aperture (or any place to put one) and seemingly no way to mount it. I'd probably have to pass on this one."

same as above.

Have fun with the Beseler and post some photos.

[Hermes07]

"I need to figure out how to mount the Beseler..."

If your lens board is 3/4" (20mm) thick you can bore the hole the same size as the barrel than use 2 thick rubber O-rings, front & rear, to hold it in place. Easy, clean and works well. If you make the hole a little large you can line it with book binder/ gaffer's tape.

" and if I can cut the barrel and make aperture inserts for it."

Don't know how the lens elements come out of this one but the cut should be easy.
Spare dark slides or 3-ring loose leaf binder plastic make very nice waterhouse stop plates.

"The Aero Tessar is the cheapest but has no aperture (or any place to put one) and seemingly no way to mount it. I'd probably have to pass on this one."

same as above.

Have fun with the Beseler and post some photos.


If the Beseler you bought is the same as mine, the hole in the lensboard needs to be 136.5mm in diameter. If you can get this exact (Luckily I have a cnc machine to rout my boards) then the lens will slide on tightly - as Paul says, all you need is some sort of o-ring front and back to secure it and ensure it's light tight. I use caddy pipe clamps which are full metal clamps with epdm inserts that hold tight. You can get them in any diameter from around 50mm to 250mm.

Cutting it for waterhouse stops should be easy enough as the metal seems thin. Finding out where the middle element is, is the big problem. I haven't got around to doing it as I have my 500mm f/4.5 tessar and other lenses I can use rather than stopping the Beseler down. If you manage to cut it successfully, be sure to let us know how.

FYI, you can mount the (Very Heavy) Aero Tessar in exactly the same way as has just been described with the Beseler. For the aperture, you can either cut a slot for waterhouse stops (easy enough, as you can unscrew the front & rear groups and work on just the empty barrel), or buy a version already mounted to an electronically controlled aperture - with a bit of drilling and hacking you can open it up, gut the electronics and rig a simple lever to control the aperture with.

[Hermes07]

First, I just want to say thanks to everyone who has offered ideas. I didn't think there were this many options! This is really fantastic!

I've searched the auction site for the lenses that have been listed. Below are the ones I found which have glass in the condition that I'm looking for. What do you all think about these and the prices?

1) Wollensak 14.5in/4 Verito (http://www.ebay.com/itm/370305683450?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1076wt_1188)
2) Zeiss E.Krauss Paris Tessar 4.5/500mm (http://www.ebay.com/itm/250963896656?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_6165wt_1002)
3) Aero Tessar f:6,0 / 24 inch (http://www.ebay.com/itm/270852779671?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1203)

The Aero Tessar is the cheapest but has no aperture (or any place to put one) and seemingly no way to mount it. I'd probably have to pass on this one.

The 14.5 in Wollensak and the Zeiss Krauss may work but I've got no idea if these are reasonable prices.

I actually just bought this 18" Beseler (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180817872659?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_500wt_1203) lens that Hermes07 recommended. For $32.95 I'll give it a try!


Heres another Zeiss. Any ideas about this Zeiss Jena Triplet 4.8/500 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Jena-Triplet-4-8-500-mm-302800-Luftwaffe-/350516939691?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519c700bab#ht_2695wt_1188)?

The Verito is soft focus - by the sounds of it that's not what you're looking for.

The Zeiss Tessar is a good lens but you'd have to be mad to pay that much for one.

Have no idea how the Zeiss Triplet performs but it also seems overpriced for what it is.

The Zeiss Epiotar is another projection lens which was made in 500mm f/4.5 and 430mm f/3.5 which may be worth keeping an eye out for.

[Sevo]

Have no idea how the Zeiss Triplet performs but it also seems overpriced for what it is.


And misrepresented - this is no aerial lens or Luftwaffe item (beyond the Luftwaffe having lecture rooms which will have been equipped with the usual projectors). Episcope lenses usually go for less than 100€ when sold as such...

[Dan Fromm]

And misrepresented - this is no aerial lens or Luftwaffe item (beyond the Luftwaffe having lecture rooms which will have been equipped with the usual projectors). Episcope lenses usually go for less than 100€ when sold as such...
Not an Episcope lens, Sevo, a WW-I aerial camera lens. Look at the s/n.

My late friend Charlie Barringer had a couple of them.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"Not an Episcope lens, Sevo, a WW-I aerial camera lens. Look at the s/n."

and it has an aperture.

[William Whitaker]

...What do you all think about these and the prices?

1) Wollensak 14.5in/4 Verito (http://www.ebay.com/itm/370305683450?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1076wt_1188)

Verito prices have been up for a while, but that's just plain nuts. And it doesn't even have an iris. The ability to stop the lens down is what controls the diffusion. One waterhouse stop is included, but you really need a set. And that doesn't look original. Perhaps Wollensak produced some Veritos with waterhouse stops, but I've never seen any in the catalogs. I don't see the flange that the seller claims is there. It looks like the lens is simply screwed into the lensboard - and backwards at that. That seller is infamous for having prices that push the bounds of all known reality.

Be patient. It's hard, I know.

[Jim Galli]

Ilex - Caltar made a 508mm f7 triplet in an Ilex #5 shutter. Discussed here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=10107).

Mathematics is always your friend in these quests. A few quick slips of the slide rule will tell you that for a 508mm lens f4 = a glass size of 127mm!

f4.5 = 112
f5 = 101
f5.6 = 90
f6.8 = 74

Add to the glass width a mechanism to hold it in place and a resulting flange and you can quickly see how gigantic a lens board you'll need for the different aperture lenses.

Shutters begin about 72mm so you can see what drove the 508 f7 that Caltar built.

Another nice lens that doesn't meet your criteria exactly is the Cooke Series XV convertible which gives you (I think,) a 324mm combined, a 486mm rear group and a 646mm front group. Single groups aren't fast, but they were good enough used alone that Sir Ansel made many of his iconic pics this way.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Can you be more specific? As mentioned, there are f4.5 Tessar types out there, and these are probably your best bet. That said, if you have the cash and the patience you could probably find a Petzval. A Dallmeyer 5A (22" f4) would fit the bill, as would some of the faster Voigtlaender. I have a junky 600mm f6 AeroTessar (want it?) which should also probably cover the format.

[TheDeardorffGuy]

Ilex - Caltar made a 508mm f7 triplet in an Ilex #5 shutter. Discussed here (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=10107).

Mathematics is always your friend in these quests. A few quick slips of the slide rule will tell you that for a 508mm lens f4 = a glass size of 127mm!

f4.5 = 112
f5 = 101
f5.6 = 90
f6.8 = 74

Add to the glass width a mechanism to hold it in place and a resulting flange and you can quickly see how gigantic a lens board you'll need for the different aperture lenses.

Shutters begin about 72mm so you can see what drove the 508 f7 that Caltar built.

Another nice lens that doesn't meet your criteria exactly is the Cooke Series XV convertible which gives you (I think,) a 324mm combined, a 486mm rear group and a 646mm front group. Single groups aren't fast, but they were good enough used alone that Sir Ansel made many of his iconic pics this way.

Good reply Jim
I was waiting for someone to come up with the numbers for a shuttered large apeture lens .
Have you ever seen the giant Ilex dial set shutter. Its 9 inches across with a 5 inch opening. Speeds were 1, 1/2, 1/5, 1/10. I've only seen two. One had a B&J Carl Meyer
3.5 something or other in it. the other was new without the f scale inscribed.

[Jim Galli]

Good reply Jim
I was waiting for someone to come up with the numbers for a shuttered large apeture lens .
Have you ever seen the giant Ilex dial set shutter. Its 9 inches across with a 5 inch opening. Speeds were 1, 1/2, 1/5, 1/10. I've only seen two. One had a B&J Carl Meyer
3.5 something or other in it. the other was new without the f scale inscribed.

Never seen one of those Ken, but I do have several of the Ilexpo ones which were a glorified Packard type affair built into a 9X9 board.

[jnantz]

hi francesco

is this for paper negatives, or film ?

you could probably make your own lens with a single cell meniscus flipped
so the curved part is towards the film plane. ( like a wollaston )
some will easilycover a 11x14 film plane ( may vignette )
and a home made waterhouse stop will be your friend too.

i have and use one on a 11x14 camera i made last year and it covered 11x14
easily ... ( paper negatives )

a wollensak triple ( 1a ) will easily cover that size film.
i use one on a 11x14 camera and even have room to wiggle the front standard around
( i got mine from igors, maybe the TR linked to is a 1a, its the same focal lengths )

good luck !
john

[Fragomeni]

I have a junky 600mm f6 AeroTessar (want it?) which should also probably cover the format.
Jason, what do you mean by junky? How's the glass? Is there an aperture or waterhouse stops? How heavy is it?


is this for paper negatives, or film ?

you could probably make your own lens with a single cell meniscus flipped
so the curved part is towards the film plane...
Hi John. Inevitably most of what I do gravitates toward paper negative work. I've got both film and paper for this project to be used in camera but I'll most likely gravitate toward the paper like usual. I've made a few basic lenses (single cell meniscus) that work but I'm looking for something else here. I'd prefer a somewhat corrected lens rather then something entirely homebrew.

[Fragomeni]

What does a Dallmeyer 5A go for these days?

Also, what is an appropriate price for one of the Zeiss Tessar 500mm f4.5 lenses mentioned earlier?

Thanks!