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kevs-2323668
6-Feb-2012, 09:54
What do you all recommending for the Dark cloth to focus with on 4x5?

Also, cleaning the holders. Some say air, others, just a nice brush. I'm reading Ansel Adams book the camera, and he says vacuum. thanks!

John Kasaian
6-Feb-2012, 10:01
Home made is my preference. Simmons' Using The View Camera has instructions.
Ansel is right---vacume. I have a small dedicated shop vac for photo stuff. They go on sale at the big box places every so often.
Blowing or brushing dosen't get rid of dust, it only stirs it up to someday return and spoil your outing, so suck it up! ;)

kevs-2323668
6-Feb-2012, 10:23
John, thanks. The Simmons book is ordered and should come soon.

One friend here uses a 2" camel hair brush, no good?

I have a Belkin mini vak (for I think computer keyboards), that's optimal?

John Kasaian
6-Feb-2012, 10:27
John, thanks. The Simmons book is ordered and should come soon.

One friend here uses a 2" camel hair brush, no good?

I have a Belkin mini vak (for I think computer keyboards), that's optimal?

A brush will work, but I think your mini vac will work better. A brush only stirs up the stuff IMHO.
A black sweatshirt or doubled black t-shirt can be used for a dark cloth if you don't want to wait.

Brian Ellis
6-Feb-2012, 10:29
For a hood I used the BTZS hood for decades. http://www.viewcamerastore.com/servlet/the-BTZS-Products/Categories. They're light, compact, easy to carry and use.

To clean holders I use an anti-static brush. But more important than the cleaning system IMHO is how they're stored and used. I keep holders in a plastic zip-lock bag at all times except when they're actually in the camera or being loaded and unloaded and I think that's why I have very minimal dust issues.

John Kasaian
6-Feb-2012, 10:34
FWIW I used a mini-vac for several years until it finally gave up the ghost, then I replaced it with the shop-vac & micro attachments. Whats really nice about vacumes is that you can suck up stuff out of the loading and dark slide grooves as well as suck out anything thats loose in the light traps. Being velvet, the light traps are magnets for dust.

Lynn Jones
6-Feb-2012, 11:12
My favorite focus cloths are double, white side out and black side in. In my Texas summers, i sure don't want my head under a black cloth.

Lo these 55 years ago, when I started at Brooks, I was taught to rap the film holder sharply on the edges and then brush the trash away. Either rap sharply with the edge of the dark slide or the unpainted handle of the brush. Also, never use a brush with synthetic bristles, only natural bristles to prevent static electricity charges. You can tell if the film holder has been cleaned regularly by the dents on the edges.

Lynn

kevs-2323668
6-Feb-2012, 12:51
thanks Brian,
John/ Lynn if you have links for the mini vac or cloths, please list. thanks!

Alan Gales
6-Feb-2012, 13:24
Sears has a nice assortment of vacuums in their tool department. That's where I bought mine.

kevs-2323668
6-Feb-2012, 13:57
thanks Alan, do have a link? otherwise, I leave with a Hoover.

I got this for my computer keyboard long time ago, micky mouse. I would like a better version of it, if someone has a link thanks
http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-MINIVAK-VACUUM-CLEANER-F8E426/dp/B00006HTNR

Steve Hamley
6-Feb-2012, 14:08
For cleaning film holders, I like a painter's tack rag - the beeswax impregnated cheesecloths. Vacuums sound nice, but the exhaust is - an air blower which raises dust. And hopefully there's more dust in your environment for the vacuum exhaust to raise than in the film holders!

There are no perfect cloths!

BTZS hoods are nice - I have a couple and like them for car and cool weather use. But they're almost impossible when you stick your sweaty head into one. Glasses, ground glass, everything fogs up immediately. A black T-shirt works pretty well, as does home-made.

Ebony makes a cloth that is the best but has drawbacks, especially with cameras with no cold shoe. This hood is a compendium and camera shelter, you can shoot in light rain with it. But it requires a cold shoe, the Ebony lens shade clip, and the Ebony GG protector, and you can't use it without the clip and protector. And all this is pricey.

They also make a very light cloth that isn't expensive, but it is small, 4x5 and maybe 5x7 only. It's very, very light and that's great when you're carrying it, less so when it's windy.

I like my old Gnass cloth as well as any - not too light or too heavy, provides some padding to help hold everything in place in the pack, and something very similar could be easily made.

So... If you only have one, a black T-shirt or a home made cloth. If you have the luxury of two, a BTZS for non-sweaty situations, and then a home made cloth for everything else. If you know you're going to have to shoot in adverse conditions, the Ebony cloth is hard to beat even if you add a cold shoe.

The ideal cloth, assuming that you're willing to attach a cold shoe to the front standard, would be a home-made cloth, soft and relatively thick like the Gnass, maybe just a inch or three larger, with a pocket for a piece of rigid plastic or light wood to function like the Ebony GG protector. Then you could use it with the Ebony lens shade clip, which is handy to flag the lens anyway, or you could use it just like a regular cloth - something you can't do with the big Ebony cloth because of the built-in "stiffeners" (hard to explain, trust me).

Cheers, Steve

Sal Santamaura
6-Feb-2012, 14:55
Regular vacuum cleaners, like brushes, mostly take the dust out of your holder and spray it into the air, though perhaps a little further away. :)

Here's what I use:

http://www.amazon.com/3M-497AJM-Portable-Electronic-Cleaner/dp/B00006HR5F

Alan Gales
6-Feb-2012, 17:15
Here you go!


http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM3237301602P?prdNo=3[/URL]c/s/p_10153_12605_SPM3237301602P?prdNo=3

John Kasaian
6-Feb-2012, 17:33
thanks Brian,
John/ Lynn if you have links for the mini vac or cloths, please list. thanks!

This was my first vac. It lasted a few years but eventually died.
http://www.scientificsonline.com/miniature-vacuum-brush.html?mr:referralID=3c59f1ae-5123-11e1-a1f9-001b2166c2c0
The one I used these days is a 1 gallon 1.5 HP Shop Vac Hang Up(which I haven't) and the optional mini attachments. The filters work well and the dust is well contained.:)

rdenney
6-Feb-2012, 20:07
As the guy who recommended the 2" camel-hair brush, let me say this about vacuums.

I love central vacuum systems, and never realized until we moved into our current house equipped such. I discovered its greatest value: The exhaust air exits outside the house. If I had a darkroom and a central vac attachment, I'd be happy.

But vacuums don't often come with the fittings needed to avoid scratches, or picking up things you don't want picked up (sheets of film come to mind). It wouldn't take much of a vacuum to suck a sheet right out of a holder. I'm sure those of you who use them have learned to avoid such mishaps.

For removing dust from a negative when going into the scanner, I use a foot-blower, which is a foot-operated bellows with a hose and nozzle. Works fine. Yes, the dust gets moved elsewhere, but usually the blower has the energy to move it far enough elsewhere not to bother me. And it doesn't accidentally latch onto things.

But here's my issue with depending on vacuums: It takes a really, really small vacuum to sit happily inside a changing tent. I prefer approaches that I can take with me, as part of my religious routine for loading holders. The camel-hair brush is reasonable effective and works anywhere.

But I don't slap the brush around, either. There is technique involved. I brush down slowly, so that the dust is pulled along, not launched. I brush down the holder, then I slide in the film, and then I brush down the film and the slide, and close it up. I routinely vacuum my holder loading area, which includes the inside of my changing room thingie.

If I used a vacuum in an enclosed darkroom, it would have to be the external exhausting sort. Dust that pass right through a filter is still big enough to cause problems on film.

Rick "brushing in controlled strokes" Denney

Roger Cole
6-Feb-2012, 20:35
BTZS hood for dark cloth.

For holder cleaning I use an anti-static lint roller I bought years ago from the old F Stops Here store - not sure what I'll do when the adhesive pads for cleaning the roller are gone, but they seem like the same stuff that's on lint rollers only in a flat pad so they may be available. I follow this procedure:

1. I turn on the HEPA air filter in the darkroom and let it run a while.
2. I wipe down the table in the darkroom with a damp cloth.
3. I then clean each holder and dark slide with the anti-static roller, lay the slides and holders in separate stacks with the dark side (that will face the film) of the holders down so dust is less likely to settle on them.

Lights out

4. Before loading each holder I blast it with compressed air, load, and slide the holder just barely in, then I hold it with film down and tap the back sharply, then slide the holder the rest of the way in.

Very very few dust problems.

kevs-2323668
6-Feb-2012, 20:53
Steve, thanks, did not understand a lot of that, but look like good info. Links always help a lot.
Sol-- quite expensive. Alan good price. John, better price, although your new one does not have a link.
Rick, was going to ask you about all this again...and I will do that later. I need a small course in the brushing off holders. I'm not using a changing test. I'll just get enough holders. Also, isn't the brush just for cleaning holders before and after film is in it?
Rog - dark cloth, it's over my head still being a newbie....

John Kasaian
6-Feb-2012, 20:58
I vacume my holders on the kitchen table. Once the film is loaded, I put my holders in zip lock bags until use, then back in the zip locks until souping. Five 8x10 holders will fit in a Hefty storage zip lock (the one gallon size are too small) I get them from Walmart.

Steve Hamley
6-Feb-2012, 21:07
Here's a link.

http://www.ebonycamera.com/acc.html#All-weather%20focusing%20hood

The Ebony all-weather focusing hood uses the gg protector inserted into a pocket. The lens shade clip - three items up - attaches to the gg protector in the pocket and to a "cold shoe", a non-energized flash bracket - on the front standard. The image of the lens shade clip shows the gg protector being used as a lens flag.

Cheers, Steve

Brian Grogan
6-Feb-2012, 21:39
I travel extensively for work so can't imagine hauling a shop vac around to clean holders on location. For about 20 years I have used Kinetronics anti-static brushes which work very well. Then once loaded I keep each individual holder in a zip lock bag until I am ready to expose film. Once shot the holder goes right back in the zip lock bag.
Dust problems are nil.

Roger Cole
6-Feb-2012, 21:54
Rog - dark cloth, it's over my head still being a newbie....

Sorry, someone else linked it so I just repeated it, but I use this:

http://www.viewcamerastore.com/servlet/the-201/BTZS-Focus-Hood%2C-Dark/Detail

I had the "horse blanket" type and this is a huge improvement. I tried the black tee shirt so many recommend and, while workable, I find the BTZS hood far better. It's expensive, but worth it.

rdenney
7-Feb-2012, 07:23
When it comes to dark cloths, there is a lot about using them that is personal. It depends, for example, on the photographer's hair, and even more on his eyesight. I have rejected dark cloths that would give me "bed hair" in 5 seconds, and those that prevented or impeded the bird-like bobbing of my head required by trifocals. Bald guys with good eyesight would have different requirements. :) Some that I have rejected are of the type favored by many. I want my focus cloth to roll up very compactly so that it fits in the case with my other stuff. I want it to be reflective on the outside to prevent suffocating under the thing, but that comes from having done lots of outdoor photography in Texas heat. I want it to close at the bottom to prevent light from the ground reflecting up and making it more difficult to see a dim image, particularly when checking focus with the lens at taking aperture, which might be f/32.

Also, the bigger the dark cloth, the better the dark. But big dark cloths can become downright dangerous in a breeze. Some people weight the corners to prevent that, but then a sudden gust can turn those weights into missiles. That is not a concern for your indoor project, and you can also arrange your lighting to point away from the camera.

You should be getting the sense at this point that the parts of the large-format process that we physically touch become even more important and spark even more passion than questions about the cameras and lenses. I spent as much on my focus screen as I spent buying any of the lenses I've bought in the last five years--a direct result of using very short lenses and having poor eyesight. I spent a bucket on my dark cloth, but not before I'd tried all the cheaper alternatives over many years.

I think you should start with a blanket or a beach towel until you have enough experience to understand your requirements and evaluate the choices based on what will work for you.

Rick "who has a Maxwell screen and a Blackjacket focusing hood, if it matters" Denney

imagedowser
7-Feb-2012, 08:15
I bought a "Rainbow" water filtering vac at a yard sale for $65.00 .... they sell new for about $2,000.... This one is fine but old. They were used in the 60's for people with allergies... totally removes all dust, mold spores and even the thought of pollen. It's my dedicated dark room vac .... have an electrolux w/ 1 micron bags for gen house cleaning which seems to work almost as well on holders in a pinch.

kevs-2323668
7-Feb-2012, 09:23
thanks. don't know what gg protector or lens shade clip is. or cold shoe. Ebony hood is how much? Other photos or ideas appreciated.

rdenney
7-Feb-2012, 12:56
thanks. don't know what gg protector or lens shade clip is. or cold shoe. Ebony hood is how much? Other photos or ideas appreciated.

gg protector: Ground glass protector--a panel that fits over the focus screen to protect it. You don't need it if you are even reasonably careful. 8x10 camera owners have a greater need. I've never used one, except for the folding hood on the back of a Speed Graphic.

lens-shade clip: Sinar makes a little plastic clip that snaps to the corner of one of their standard bellows. You use two, one for each end of a standard bellows. They slide onto a hexagonal rod that itself slides into the hexagonal hole at the bottom of the lens standard. This allows you to use a spare bellows as a compendium shade for cheap. Very handy. You don't need it at first. Shade the lens with something else until you can find these bits. Don't buy any other lens shade arrangement--this is cheaper than any alternative and one of the real advantages of owning a Sinar. But you can get it in due time.

cold-shoe: Just a standard accessory flash shoe like what is on top of your current camera, but without any electronic contacts. You need a cable from the shutter to the flash to fire the flash. It clips into the slots on the sides and tops of the carrier standards on the Sinar camera. You will be using studio lights; you don't need it.

Ebony hood: This. (http://www.ebonycamera.com/acc.html#Bellows%20focusing%20hood) There are alternatives. This one won't fit on a Sinar in any case. Most people prefer a cloth and hand-held loupe. This one is expensive.

Rick "next question?" Denney

Roger Cole
7-Feb-2012, 13:07
When it comes to dark cloths, there is a lot about using them that is personal. It depends, for example, on the photographer's hair, and even more on his eyesight. I have rejected dark cloths that would give me "bed hair" in 5 seconds, and those that prevented or impeded the bird-like bobbing of my head required by trifocals. Bald guys with good eyesight would have different requirements. :) Some that I have rejected are of the type favored by many. I want my focus cloth to roll up very compactly so that it fits in the case with my other stuff. I want it to be reflective on the outside to prevent suffocating under the thing, but that comes from having done lots of outdoor photography in Texas heat. I want it to close at the bottom to prevent light from the ground reflecting up and making it more difficult to see a dim image, particularly when checking focus with the lens at taking aperture, which might be f/32.
...
Rick "who has a Maxwell screen and a Blackjacket focusing hood, if it matters" Denney

Good points.

I'm almost totally bald and keep the ring around the sides pretty short now, so that's not a consideration, and I've been this way since long before I got into LF (most of my hair fell out between ages 23 and 25) so I never even thought of that. I wear progressives, but the fact is the closest focus area at the bottom is annoyingly small and I still can't see quite as well out of it as I can by simply taking my glasses off as I am very nearsighted, so sometimes I work without them, but then if I get more than 6" away I can't see well, so most often I just wear my dedicated reading glasses under the cloth. It's a PITA switching back and forth but we do what we must.

The Zone VI "horse blanket" I had really wasn't easy to attach to the camera in any significant way and I just ended up draping it over. It was large enough to do that, but unwieldy, plus it was big and heavy and took up a lot of room in my bag. The BTZS hood is better for me in all ways and has velcro around the camera and at the bottom. As Rick says, it's a very personal thing and I think his suggestion to start with something basic until you have an idea what you want makes sense.

William McEwen
7-Feb-2012, 13:33
Cleaning holders: I use a one-inch paintbrush to clean holders. It stays in a plastic baggie in my camera bag when I'm not using it. In 30 years in large format, I've never once vacuumed a holder.

Make sure your loading space is free of dust.

Keep your holders in a plastic bag whether they are loaded or unloaded. Get them out only to shoot, load, or unload.

kevs-2323668
7-Feb-2012, 17:38
great info Rick! William, good point about not having dust where you load. I was doing some silkscreen emulsion printing in my bathroom and just having bathroom carpets in there created dust havoc.

Steve Hamley
7-Feb-2012, 20:14
Kevs,

It can be confusing so see attached jpegs...

"Cold Shoe" is a cold shoe. It's what a flash unit mounts on except it isn't "hot"; no electricity, it's just a bracket.

"Lens Shade Clip" is just that. It attaches to the cold shoe and holds either a GG protector to "flag" (cast a shadow on) the lens, or to attach to the Ebony all weather hood.

"Clip on CS" is the lens shade clip mounted on the cold shoe on the camera.

"In use" is the whole thing as you would use it, except I have it opened up more so you can hopefully see what's going on. Excuse the pictures, there are better ones on the site link mentioned above.

For the record, I was incorrect in that you do not need the GG protector to use this, just the clip and hood, provided you have a cold shoe on the camera.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Steve

rdenney
7-Feb-2012, 20:23
Kevs,

It can be confusing so see attached jpegs...

Steve, no offense, but I defined your terms in ways compatible with the Sinar camera that the OP has just purchased.

Rick "figuring Ebony goodies wouldn't be relevant to his Sinar F, and trying to avoid confusion" Denney

Steve Hamley
7-Feb-2012, 20:46
Rick,

I understand and concur, and the shade does have it's drawbacks, like you can't use it without the cold shoe and clip, and that's a lot of trouble. In other words, you can't use it like a regular dark cloth. It is expensive. However, it does protect the camera as well or better than anything in adverse conditions and serve as a good lens shade.

If you were inclined to attach a cold shoe AND needed that protection, it might be worth it. For honesty's sake, I hardly ever use mine unless it's raining or snowing.

I posted my reply because the OP said he didn't understand how it functioned (or that's what it amounted to). My reply is probably not going to be useful to him as you note, but who knows? Something similar might be devised, and the information might be useful to someone else.

And IMO, the Ebony shade would be far better to adapt than those silly tripod arms to hold umbrellas described in some books!

Cheers, Steve

rdenney
7-Feb-2012, 21:23
I posted my reply because the OP said he didn't understand how it functioned (or that's what it amounted to). My reply is probably not going to be useful to him as you note, but who knows? Something similar might be devised, and the information might be useful to someone else.

Indeed--I was actually making sure I had not stepped on your toes.

Rick "who always admires the Ebony stuff--from a safe distance" Denney

Steve Hamley
8-Feb-2012, 07:46
No problems Rick.

Cheers, Steve

kevs-2323668
8-Feb-2012, 09:32
thanks Guys, Photos are nice! I do actually have cold shoes on top of my Lumedyne heads now for the pocketwizard. In fact I may want one Rick to put on top on the Sinar if that works with pocketwizard?

rdenney
8-Feb-2012, 10:30
thanks Guys, Photos are nice! I do actually have cold shoes on top of my Lumedyne heads now for the pocketwizard. In fact I may want one Rick to put on top on the Sinar if that works with pocketwizard?

Sure--that's a good application as long as your Pocket Wizard allows syncing through a cable. I don't see the Sinar accessory cold shoes very often, though. If you find a source that has two, let me know--I'll get one, too.

Rick "who buys Sinar bits half the time for no good reason" Denney