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View Full Version : Hybrid Film and Digital - Your Approach?



Bob Hubert
1-Feb-2012, 13:00
Hi All:

I am interested in hearing about any hybrid (film + digital) workflows that are currently being used. About 2 years ago I was faced with not being able to make 16X20 prints in a traditional darkroom any longer. My solution was to go hybrid in the following way:

Shoot 8X10 (usually Tri X)

Develop in Diafine (I chose Diafine because I do not have to dispose of great quantities)

Scan on an Epson V750 at 1200 dpi (using the full bed dry scan - not wet)

Print on the Epson 4900 in 16X20 size. I love the look of the Canson papers.

Would appreciate hearing from any other hybriders and a description of your approach.

Bob

vinny
1-Feb-2012, 13:48
I drum scan my transparencies (120, 4x5, 8x10) then output via lightjet on fuji crystal archive glossy. I print my b+w stuff on kentmere glossy in the darkroom but I do have some negs that I need to have LVT's made of since they are either damaged from processing erros or have major dust issues. I could also output those via lightjet but I prefer silver prints.

Lenny Eiger
2-Feb-2012, 14:33
I shoot both 4x5 and 8x10 Delta. I soup in Xtol 1:1 on a Jobo. (Testing Pyro this summer.) I scan in using a drum scanner (Aztek Premier) and print on a Roland FJ-540 set up with StudioPrint on both Hahnemuhle and Kozo paper, depending.

I am one of those folks who really can't stand glossy, or even baryta papers, no offense to anyone who likes them, but they just aren't for me.

I print in color (for my clients only) with a dVinci setup and am moving from a 6-tone Piezotone to a K7 insket this month sometime. The Roland's have 12 slots, so I fill 6 with Carbon Sepia and 6 with Selenium. Can do splits, all kinds of things. We will also be offering enlarged negs soon, as soon as the new ink is installed...

I am impressed with the quality of the hybrid systems. I think they are exquisite.

Lenny

Bob Hubert
2-Feb-2012, 20:24
Thanks Lenny

This sounds like a really interesting workflow.

Bob

tgtaylor
2-Feb-2012, 21:51
Funny as just this afternoon I found myself questioning the honesty of printing an alternative process such as the Vandyke and scanning the original print and printing it digitally. Well I did both today. I made this [http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?p=841636#post841636 original print posted in the forum's Alternative section and made a digital print of it which is drying on my desk at the moment. The inkjet print really looks good and sure takes a lot less time to make than the original. But is it legitimate?

Thomas

Zaitz
3-Feb-2012, 01:35
Legitimate to what? A good print is a good print. To clarify, it's a scan of a Vandyke and then printed via inkjet? Or just a scan of the negative and then printed via inkjet? The inkjet print (either way) may not be a Vandyke but if it looks great to you that should be all that matters in my opinion. What it's classified as doesn't change how the end product is viewed for me. Call it whatever you want! Good is good and I don't really care how it gets there.

I've used Lenny's scanning service which is fantastic. I'd love to try a few prints through you as well! I usually send out for my prints to the various labs like WHCC, El-Co Color, Bay photo.. etc. I really like the results and couldn't imagine doing it any other way. I haven't yet tried a fine-art inkjet print but have a few images which I think would work better that way compared to Kodak Metallic or Lustre papers.

Frank Petronio
3-Feb-2012, 05:52
Most of the time I shoot Portra 400 and have Edgar Praus process it. Scan on my Epson 700 flatbed (or 35mm on an inexpensive Konica Minolta Dual Scan IV), editing extensively in Photoshop and more often than not convert it to B&W, printing on the Epson R3000 using the Epson driver for color and the Harrington Quadtone RIP for B&W. I like the glossy Harman by Hahnemuhle Baryta.

The printer limits me to 13x19 inches and my current print portfolio is based on 11x17 sheets, untrimmed, so image area is only ~10x12.5 or 10x15. So while I don't have anything very fancy, for portfolio-sized images they look great. I get a lot of compliments and sell work, get assignments from them.

Occasionally I will use Edgar's Imacon and BookSmart's larger inkjets for larger prints. I would like an excuse to use Lenny for good scans and also to find someone to pay for getting prints from Elevator Digital in Toronto (Bob Carnie) who can make traditional fiber-based B&W silver prints from digital files. But until a client or gallery comes along that wants to go large, I'm too damn cheap to blow money on vanity prints that I can't do anything with.

I have a bunch of 32x40s I made when I was teaching and could use your tax dollars to run the school's Epsons (that nobody knew how to run) and I have serious problem storing them, finding the safe physical space for all of this is hard enough unless you start dedicating serious resources (like building additions to your house).

Seriously, I have a 40x60 framed print of a fatass computer gamer dude that looks awesome but I don't want him taking over the living room so it hangs at Edgar's. I have a bunch more in tubes in the basement, rotting away. They are just impractical. Even if I stumbled upon Alec Soth's fame, I wouldn't want to exhibit or sell old prints anyway, so why do them other than to prove you can? It's a cool experience and worth doing to know you can but....

I just invested in building a simple, compact film-darkroom in the basement though. I figure that once Kodak and Fuji fold the color sheet film tent, I will need to process B&W and now I'll be set to return to the fumes of my youth....

John Rodriguez
3-Feb-2012, 06:13
I moved from digital to film, so I was already entrenched in a digital print process.

4x5 color is lab processed.

4x5 b+w is processed a specialty lab that only does BW hand tray processing.

I do an initial scan on an Epson 4870.

I work on the Epson scans and make letter sized prints on an Epson 3880.

If I really like a print I'll print it up to 17x22 and hang it in the house for awhile.

When I find a print I love I have the film drum scanned.

I've found a place with an 11880 I can use for cheap if I supply my own paper which I'll be using for larger prints.

I haven't found any paper I like better then Epson Luster for color.

So far my favorite paper for black and white is Harman Gloss Baryta Warmtone.

Bob Hubert
3-Feb-2012, 07:39
Thanks for the replies!

The question of legitimacy is really interesting. When I started using the hybrid process I wasn't out to copy or duplicate what I did with a silver print - but I was interested in keeping the positive aspects that I enjoyed using 8X10 film combined with early portrait lenses. I can't say they are the same as silver prints, but they are good prints in their own right. I have a number of images on my web site using this method if anyone would like to see...

http://www.studio-cameras.com

Bob

Noah A
3-Feb-2012, 09:01
I shoot almost all color, now it's Portra 160 which is a pretty amazing film.

I've been thinking I should either start getting contact prints done, or I should just suck it up and spend the time to do quick preview scans of each photo on an Epson flatbed. As it is now I edit from the film and go right to the drum scanner, in my case a Howtek HR 8000. I scan at 4000dpi which gives a 16-bit file of around 1.6gb.

I do small portfolio prints and preliminary test prints on my Epson 4880. Final prints, which start at 20x24, I do at a rental lab on a 9900. It's not a bad deal, $20/hour and $1/ml of ink and you bring your own paper. A 40x50 ends up costing around $50 if you work quickly. That same facility also does bigger prints on their 11880, but they don't rent that one by the hour.

I print color on Epson Luster. I've tried some other papers but I really like it, it looks similar to traditional c-print paper and while it's not as thick as some of the other papers, it seems just as durable. This is an issue when you print 40x50 and up, since it's very, very easy to kink or ding a print.

For a while I was doing lightjet digital-c prints, but I actually have more faith in the long-term stability of pigment inkjet prints. I had some lightjet prints on display at a university in normal room lighting and they were noticeably yellowed after only a year.

I'm loving the hybrid workflow. In my opinion it gives me the best of both worlds. I get the look and image quality of film (and with inexpensive equipment!) and I get to print with state-of-the art technology that produces stable prints and consistent, repeatable results.

I don't do that much B&W but I have been dabbling in it for fun. When I started my career I was a hard-core Tri-X 35mm documentary photographer. So it's nice to get back to the darkroom but mostly I see my work in color now.

I was really worried when the Kodak news started to get worse. I was thinking I'd have to go digital in the next few years. But now I'm thinking of going in the same direction as Frank. If color goes away, I think I'd prefer to shoot B&W film instead of going digital.

If I were to switch back to B&W, I don't know if I'll go back to the darkroom for prints or if I'll keep the hybrid thing going. I suspect it would be a combination, since I'll always need to do good scans for publication purposes.

Frank Petronio
3-Feb-2012, 09:52
I like digital shooting too, I did one of the first catalogs using a digital camera in 1994, blah blah blah....

But nowadays using film is unique, a marketing point, a better experience. I make no claims that film is "better" than digital - I just enjoy the process more, and my portrait subjects respond well to the different pace of shooting film.

Heck a $100 point and shoot digital probably has better purely technical quality than my 35mm Leica film and grainy Minolta Dual Scan IV files - but I really like the look I get with that combo, so why not enjoy this window of time while we still can? In twenty years most of this stuff will be gone or so laborious to do that it will change the dynamics of shooting.

tgtaylor
3-Feb-2012, 10:57
Legitimate to what? A good print is a good print. To clarify, it's a scan of a Vandyke and then printed via inkjet? Or just a scan of the negative and then printed via inkjet? The inkjet print (either way) may not be a Vandyke but if it looks great to you that should be all that matters in my opinion. What it's classified as doesn't change how the end product is viewed for me. Call it whatever you want! Good is good and I don't really care how it gets there.

I've used Lenny's scanning service which is fantastic. I'd love to try a few prints through you as well! I usually send out for my prints to the various labs like WHCC, El-Co Color, Bay photo.. etc. I really like the results and couldn't imagine doing it any other way. I haven't yet tried a fine-art inkjet print but have a few images which I think would work better that way compared to Kodak Metallic or Lustre papers.

It's a scan of the print.

My scanner is the now lowely and ancient Epson 3200 which can scan negatives up to 4x5 and not larger. However it is able to scan larger reflective media which in this case is a sheet of 9x11 Craine's Platinotype with the 9 inch side barely fitting on the scanner bed.

As far as trying "a few prints through (me)" well...thanks for the compliment but I am nowhere near the competency of Lenny and the others you mentioned. In fact I'm a newby to printing digitally having reserected my printer (Epson 2200) only a couple of week back and still have a tiny amount of Cyan ink remaining in it from 2004 (I bought it new back then and never used it). But it's fairly easy to learn to print digitally and I would recommend that you look into getting a digital printer. They are not that expensive.

I have given some thought to the "honesty" of scanning an alternative print and printing it digitally and think it is valid as long as the digital version is not represented as an alternative process. So in the above case I wouldn't call the digital print I made yesterday a Vandyke.

Thomas

Thomas

Riccis
4-Feb-2012, 07:57
My first thought was to buy an 8x10 enlarger and print in my darkroom but my travel schedule does not allow me this and I am not a great printer.

My workflow consists of the following:

-Shoot :)
-Send all the negatives to Edgar Praus for developing and contact printing
-Scan contact prints in crappy flatbed for web viewing only
-One or two keepers of each subject are drum scanned by Lenny

Cheers!

mlatterich
4-Feb-2012, 08:18
I typically shoot a variety of B&W emulsions, Velvia 50 and Portra 160. I develop all B&W and C-41 in my darkroom, and outsource E-6 to North Coast. I scan everything with an Epson 750 for cataloging and archiving. I do all my b&w printing on silver gelatin papers. If I want any color prints, I send out the Portra and Velvia for drum scanning and printing on Fuji paper. Wish cibachrome was still readily available :{

David N Docherty
7-Feb-2012, 16:49
My Approach to Hybrid:

I scan my chosen negative, usually one that is less than perfect, then I experiment with burning/dodging in Adobe Lightroom. Once I am content with the effect of the manipulations I then return to the wet darkroom where I will print the image on silver gelatin, having worked out where to manipulate and how much time to give or take away from the print. It saves paper and allows the computer to assist my photographic efforts, rather than the computer taking over the craft. I am in this for photography after all - not for something to do on a computer!


Silver is a precious metal,
Digital is transiently ephemeral.

federico9001
7-Feb-2012, 17:21
The hybrid system allows the highest quality of control+quality, especially shooting LF and ULF and scanning on an excellent drum scanner.

I do drum scans for many international artists photographers.

Take a look at this Massimo Vitali's dyptich restored by me and printed at Grieger Lab, Dusseldorf:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/castorscan/6766674429/in/photostream/

Gary Samson
7-Feb-2012, 19:38
My hybrid process:
Kodak Tmax 400 or Ilford HP5+ 4x5 film processed in PMK Pyro or Pyrocat developer
Film scanned on an Epson V750, 360 dpi for a 20x24 inch print
Edited in Photoshop and printed on Canson Baryta Photographique paper with an Epson 7900 printer

SeanEsopenko
7-Feb-2012, 19:50
I print 6x7 and 4x5 using RA4 in the darkroom and have been pining for a good scanner for a while now so I don't have to spend time masking. I scan with a V700 and use the included 4x5 holders for not-bad sharpness. 6x7s don't look very good from it. I scan at 6400 dpi then downsample to 2100 and work with that.

I print on a pro-sumer level R3000, usually 11x14s. I'd like a 3880 or some other 17 inch inkjet but this will do me for now. I've gotten to really enjoy hahnemuhle baryta. I used to think that people would prefer darkroom prints when displayed in the gallery but most people have thought my darkroom images were digital when they look at them. It kinda sealed the deal and made me think I should just move to a strictly digital or at least a hybrid workflow.

I've been playing with a Coolscan 9000 ED that's on loan in exchange for some darkroom printing I'll be doing for the fellow. I'm really liking it but unfortunately I won't be able to afford an flextight or the likes for probably a decade and at those kinds of prices I might as well get a MF back and a digital view camera. From playing with this 9000 ED I've come to the conclusion good scanner coupled with half-decent software is so much nicer to colour balance compared to the results I get with both Vuescan and Epsonscan with my V700. It makes me feel as though I'm hammering nails with a frying pan when using my current equipment.

IanMazursky
10-Feb-2012, 05:40
I shoot everything from 35mm, 645, 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 if i ever get one and my 12x20 Korona (my favorite format).
I use Kodak, Fuji and Ilford Color and B&W film which i process in my Jobo ATL 2300.
Mostly HP5, TriX, RDP3, E100G, Pro160s, Portra 400... HP5 and 70s vintage TriX in my 12x20.
B&W i process in PMK Pyro (scans extremely well) and TmaxRS. E6 in Kodak E6AR and C41 in Kodak FlexiColor.

I scan pretty much everything (even the 12x20s) on my Howtek 7500 and Aztek Premier drum scanners.
Then its off to Photoshop for spotting, retouching and color correction.

I will output some to my Epson 9880 but more lately to my LVT Rhino and LVT 1620 film recorders.
I use those negatives to make enlarged and contact RA4 and B&W prints up to 20x24 in my darkroom.
I can build in a lot of the major color and selective color work right into the LVT. It lets me do things that i could never do from a camera neg.
When i shoot chromes, which i like a lot, i will make an LVT neg. That lets me make really good RA4 prints and avoid CibaChrome!
Im also attempting Carbon printing…keyword “attempting”. Nothing much to show yet but its fun to try.

For larger darkroom prints or if i need a bunch, i will send them out to LTI in NYC. They also do lightjet prints when i need them.
I really like the LJ quality. Since i cant print over 20x24 in the darkroom, it’s a great alternative.

I occasionally mount small prints here with a fussy ancient seal hot press but i like to send them out for framing.

ic-racer
31-May-2014, 06:08
Is this the new digital forum?

Forum: Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
Traditional film, film processing, lab processing, chemistry, paper, traditional printing processes and conservation.

kansasjhawk
10-Jul-2014, 08:17
My process:

Formats: 35mm, 6x7 and 4x5

1. Shoot on one of various films: Velvia 50, Velvia 100, Provia 100, Portra 160, Neopan SS, T-Max 100, Delta Pro 100, Fuji Pro 400H
2. Home develop everything using a Patterson 3 reel tank or my smaller tank depending on what I'm developing. (Pyrocat HD for B&W and appropriate chemicals for C-41 and E-6).
3. Scan on Epson V700
4. Process in Photoshop
5. Take to my local guy for prints