Apo- and Process Nikkor info

[Dan Fromm]

Here: http://www.galerie-photo.com/apo-process-nikkors-en.html in English.

Some was taken from catalogs posted here: http://savazzi.freehostia.com/photography/old_literature.htm

[Leonard Robertson]

Dan - Thank you for taking the time to put all this information together and post the links. I recently made a thrift store find of a 240mm Apo-Nikkor. I've been curious about this lens for many years. I'm almost certain this is the design Art Kramer of "Modern Photography" magazine had mounted in shutter, sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, and did a write-up on. I probably have the issue somewhere if I can find it. I think he had it mounted in an Ilex shutter, possibly a #3.

Do you have any opinion on the difference (if any) between Apo-Nikkors and Red Dot Artars, for actual picture taking? They seem similar in design, but I suppose the Nikkors have a more modern coating, if that matters.

At least on my computer using Firefox, the quality of the pictures on your site is much better when viewed in pdf format rather than html. I'm not criticizing, just pointing it out for anyone who wants the best view of the photos. Also, the pictures are easily enlargeable in the pdf version. Thanks for putting the page up in both formats.

Len

[Drew Wiley]

All my Apo Nikkors are relatively late dialytes. I use them for enlarging when large apertures are not a priority, and their performance is superb. Wish I could afford to put
a few of the spare ones in shutter, but it's a low priority at the moment. SK Grimes lists
compatible shutters. A local fellow who specializes in ultra-telephoto photography prizes them for inifinity usage. He mounts Nikon SLR's to the back of a Toyo 8x10, and Apo Nikkor process lenses in front, and claims he get better performance than any
dedicated SLR lens.

[Dan Fromm]

Len, thanks for the kind words. Emmanuel Bigler suggested a few changes to the text, translated my and Nikon's English into French and convinced Henri Peyre, who owns www.galerie-photo.info, to put them up. I'm grateful to both of them. Not my site, Henri's. Explore it, if necessary using Google Translate. There's a lot there.

I've never had an Apo-Artar. I see no reason why one should be better than the equivalent dialyte type Apo Nikkor, also see no reason why a dialyte type Apo Nikkor should be better than the equivalent Apo-Artar. Same goes for Apo Ronars, and I have a couple of them.

[Peter De Smidt]

All my Apo Nikkors are relatively late dialytes. I use them for enlarging when large apertures are not a priority, and their performance is superb. Wish I could afford to put
a few of the spare ones in shutter, but it's a low priority at the moment. SK Grimes lists
compatible shutters. A local fellow who specializes in ultra-telephoto photography prizes them for inifinity usage. He mounts Nikon SLR's to the back of a Toyo 8x10, and Apo Nikkor process lenses in front, and claims he get better performance than any
dedicated SLR lens.

Hm. I've done that with a Sinar P, and my results don't agree with his. I was using the older 600mm Nikkor, though.

[Dan Fromm]

Peter, tessar type Apo-Nikkors have got mixed reviews from users. Your news isn't terribly surprising.

[Steve Hamley]

And then there are these...

Thanks to Dan for posting.

Cheers, Steve

[Dan Fromm]

Steve, thanks for the reminder. I'd have put them in if I'd been able to get information about them in Nikon's own words from a catalog.

Four W.A. Apo-Nikkors are listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkor

The wiki says:


Wide-Angle-Apo-Nikkor

Lens Construction 6 elements in 4 groups / Orthometar Type Lenses. The wide angle version Apo-Nikkor lens was developed for small-scale platemaking cameras.

W.A.Apo-Nikkor 150mmF8 - φ53mmP=0.75 Screw Mount. - Image circle φ350mm。
W.A.Apo-Nikkor 210mmF8 - φ72mmP=1.0mm Screw Mount. - Image circle φ460mm。
W.A.Apo-Nikkor 300mmF9 - φ90mmP=1.0mm Screw Mount. - Image circle φ610mm。
W.A.Apo-Nikkor 360mmF9 - φ90mmP=1.0mm Screw Mount. - Image circle φ730mm


For those of us who are less Zeiss-centric than the person who wrote the entry, Orthometar is another way of spelling Plasmat.

[Steve Hamley]

O.K., I found the Nikon brochure page for the 360mm WA Apo Nikkor - attached. I think I have the jpegs for the other three focal lengths, but will have to find them.

Andrew Glover (Dagor77) has a 360mm, and Colin Myers has or had a 360mm along with me.

Andrew states that he likes it better than the G-Claron and uses it on 8x20 as do I, but maybe 12x20 is stretching it (personal communication some time ago)?

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-10359.html

BTW, I've never seen one except the 360mm, listed on eBay, here, APUG, or seen any mention of anyone owning any of the other focal lengths. I'd love to see or own some just to play with them.

Cheers, Steve

[Steve Hamley]

Here they are, all I had to do was post then immediately found the others of course.

Cheers, Steve

[Steve Hamley]

Finally,

Here's a .pdf of a Word file that I copied from somewhere off the web of the brochure pictured at the bottom of the text. I did not record the URL as I usually do, so I cannot vouch 100% for the provenance, although I'm certain that it's from the pictured brochure.

Andrew Glover may be able to provide something here, I think he had some of the original brochures at one time.

Cheers, Steve

[Lachlan 717]

I couldn't really see the details on the brochures clearly, so I'm assuming that the image circles are rated at 1:1, rather than infinity?

[Dan Fromm]

Lachlan, its rarely safe to assume much but it was Nikon's custom to rate process lenses' coverage at 1:1. This has led many innocent sellers to make extravagant and false claims.

[Dan Fromm]

Steve, thanks for posting all this.

[Leonard Robertson]

An interesting Japanese site: http://akiroom.com/redbook-e/collection2/fuji01.html
It is worth following the links on the page for more information.

Len

[Steve Hamley]

And here's one I overlooked. It appears to be the last page of the brochure and the source of at least some of the information in the pdf file, although I did not copy it directly from this page, I found it somewhere else.

Lachlan and all, if you copy the files to your desktop you can enlarge them in whatever, Windows Picture and Fax, Photoshop, etc and you should be able to easily read them.

Cheers, Steve

[Lachlan 717]

Thanks, Steve.

[pdmoylan]

Dan,

Great information. Thank you. As far as you know are any of the Dialites muti-coated?

PDM

[Dan Fromm]

PD, AFAIK they're all single-coated.

[Dan Fromm]

Dan,

Great information. Thank you. As far as you know are any of the Dialites muti-coated?

PDMPD, thanks for the kind words.

I hope that you and other people who benefit from the information I compiled will also have kind words for Emmanuel Bigler and Henri Peyre, who acted, respectively, as editor (with a cattle prod) and publisher. Without their pressure and support the compilation would never have seen the light of day.

[Asher Kelman]

Here: http://www.galerie-photo.com/apo-process-nikkors-en.html in English.

Some was taken from catalogs posted here: http://savazzi.freehostia.com/photography/old_literature.htm

Hello Dan,

Thanks for sharing the interesting data you have assembled on Apo-Nikkor lenses.

There's a feature that I find puzzling and for which my searches have not found an answer. I have a 750 mm f11.0 Apo-Nikkor and I'm wondering about the function of the 0-100% scale. I can't see any changes looking through the lens as the dial is moved. It seems to provide access to a slot for filters or aperture plates perhaps. But what do the percent scale markers indicate?

Thanks,

Asher

[ic-racer]

Hello Dan,

Thanks for sharing the interesting data you have assembled on Apo-Nikkor lenses.

There's a feature that I find puzzling and for which my searches have not found an answer. I have a 750 mm f11.0 Apo-Nikkor and I'm wondering about the function of the 0-100% scale. I can't see any changes looking through the lens as the dial is moved. It seems to provide access to a slot for filters or aperture plates perhaps. But what do the percent scale markers indicate?

Thanks,

Asher

Here is a quote from the PDF:

These plates [waterhouse stops] can be tilted [rotated?] within the slot in accordance with the requirements of the using situation. From Apo-Nikkor PDF

There is an index line on the waterhouse stop. I think the 0-100 marks are index marks to align with the mark on the waterhouse stop to allow you to reproduce your special effect. Is there a "%" on yours?

[Asher Kelman]

Here is a quote from the PDF:


There is an index line on the waterhouse stop. I think the 0-100 marks are index marks to align with the mark on the waterhouse stop to allow you to reproduce your special effect. Is there a "%" on yours?

Thanks ic-racer,

Yes, it goes from 0 to 90%.

So I gather these were some kind of plate with a pattern of multiple holes so soften the image perhaps? If so, do you know who might have such stops I could copy?

Were they actually called Waterhouse stops? There's a beautiful working aperture so I can't understand why a simple Waterhouse stop would be preferable to using the changeable aperture.

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Asher, Waterhouse stops with non-circular holes were used in making half-tone plates. The hole's shape is the dot's shape, the hole's orientation is the dot's orientation.

Yes they're called Waterhouse stops, after their inventor (?), John Waterhouse. You can read about him in your copy of the VM. If you don't have a copy of the VM, get one. Dan Collucci, who posts here as ccharrison, sells it.

[Merg Ross]

Asher, Waterhouse stops with non-circular holes were used in making half-tone plates. The hole's shape is the dot's shape, the hole's orientation is the dot's orientation.

Yes they're called Waterhouse stops, after their inventor (?), John Waterhouse. You can read about him in your copy of the VM. If you don't have a copy of the VM, get one. Dan Collucci, who posts here as ccharrison, sells it.

Dan, thanks for the updated information. Filters were also used in place of the Waterhouse stops for making color separations.

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, Waterhouse stops with non-circular holes were used in making half-tone plates. The hole's shape is the dot's shape, the hole's orientation is the dot's orientation.

Yes they're called Waterhouse stops, after their inventor (?), John Waterhouse. You can read about him in your copy of the VM. If you don't have a copy of the VM, get one. Dan Collucci, who posts here as ccharrison, sells it.

Dan,

I appreciate your repeated help in getting me up to speed. I did check in the V. Mecum online, (no diagrams) on the Lens but couldn't find anything as helpful as the answers here.

Do you have any idea how the760mm f11 Apo Nikkor compares with the much, much heavier f9.0 Apo Germinar, besides the extra stop.

Asher

BTW, On a practical level, I'm considering mounting this 760mm Nikkor, which is light enough, on my Chamonix, (with the extended bellows and extension base). The huge 750mm f 9.0 Germinar is now mounted on a larger Toyo board for my camera obscura project. I have had SK Grimes sandwich a 5" Packard shutter #6 between two aluminum plates with a slip on adapter for all my barrel lenses. The front holds places for 6x6 filters. The shutter just arrived and I'm pleased as punch with Adam's work. Hopefully, it will not stress the front standard too much.

[Dan Fromm]

No idea at all, Asher, I've never had an Apo Germinar, know them only from reports by others. The reports are all very positive. You have both lenses, ask them.

That said, check the Rodenstock Process Lens Manual, which mentions but, as I read it, doesn't give mechanical data or MTF curves for six element Apo Ronars made "for especially demanding jobs." I expect they're better than the equivalent four element ones.

Dialyte type Apo Nikkors are in the same design family as four element Apo Ronars. By analogy, there are probably better process lenses, far off-axis if not on-axis.

My evaluations of lenses that cover formats larger than 2x3 reflect mainly on-axis performance, 'cos that's what matters most to me. I have yet to try a lens that's better than a dialyte type Apo-Nikkor of the same focal length centrally at f/9 and f/11. As good as, yes. Better than, no. But from f/16 down most of my process lenses of the same focal length are equally good on-axis.

[ic-racer]

Thanks ic-racer,

Yes, it goes from 0 to 90%.

So I gather these were some kind of plate with a pattern of multiple holes so soften the image perhaps? If so, do you know who might have such stops I could copy?

Were they actually called Waterhouse stops? There's a beautiful working aperture so I can't understand why a simple Waterhouse stop would be preferable to using the changeable aperture.

Asher

The first one is from a Nikon brochure. I suspect these are what you would want to copy. The second is from a Wollensak brochure.

Also, from the web:

the plates had square, or sometimes diamond-shaped apertures punched in them. This gave a more precise shape to the halftone dots that the lens had to reproduce for process platemaking.
In colour separation work, the screen orientation is rotated to a different angle for each of the four CMYK plates. The stop was also rotated to line up with the screen.

[Asher Kelman]

The first one is from a Nikon brochure. I suspect these are what you would want to copy. The second is from a Wollensak brochure.

Also, from the web:


Thanks ic-racer! good to have insight. Is there anything in the lens form which would not easily allow one to make a soft focus plate as in some of the barrel soft focus lenses so the center could be in sharp focus with a layer of light defocussed at the periphery. Just wondering. I'm happy with as sharp a lens as possible but it would be also fun to try to make a softening plate if that is feasible and there's a pattern to mimic.,

Asher

[Tin Can]

Excellent discusion I almost grasp at this time

Thank you all

[Drew Wiley]

There were three aperture control options to Apo Nikkors. All the later ones had both multi-bladed circular apertures and a Waterhouse slot accepting different shapes or potentially a gel filter at the nodal plane. But there was also a version of the 360 at least, which had both round and square adjustable apertures. Square would be in relation to best repro quality of actually square dots, versus the conventional round ones. I'm speaking about the top-end 4-element airspaced Apo Nikkor, not their cheaper line of process lenses used in conjunction with basic "stat cameras". Although these Apo Nikkors are very precise, and were exceeded only by their even higher priced Apo El Nikkor line, they have an unpleasant "double-lined" out-of-focus background blur characteristics or bokeh, just like many Nikon 35mm lenses of the past. For that kind of thing, a thick element tessar design is preferable. My own is a Zeiss 360/9 tessar barrel process lens. It's plenty sharp, but also has a lovely soft background blur. So, if selecting from older Nikon process lenses, you might want to look for an equivalent tessar formula - or just buy a Fujinon L tessar already in shutter.