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kevs-2323668
31-Jan-2012, 20:36
I was leaning toward getting a Crown Graphic, for a beginner 4x5 for doing some environmental portraits. I still may go that way, but I've learned that it's limited in what lenses it can take. ie, for wide angles especially. Curious on others opinions. thanks.

Frank Petronio
31-Jan-2012, 20:56
A Crown Graphic is very affordable and simple so I wouldn't get too scared, not many of the other more expensive field cameras will handle wide angles any better. In fact a lot of photographers dedicate an inexpensive Crown Graphic body to wide angle work with 65 to 90mm lenses because you can drop the bed and retain geared focusing.

People like to list disadvantages without admitting that most other cameras compromise important features as well. Just pretend camera selection is like picking a presidential candidate and none of them are perfect at everything.

There are numerous other threads on which field camera should I get? I would read up on the core info part of this forum's parent website: http://www.largeformatphotography.info and do a few Google searches.

Personally I recommend people start with something simple, light, cheap, and functional like an excellent condition used Graflex Crown Graphic with a top rangefinder and a 135 Schneider Xenar, Wollenstock Optar, or Kodak Ektar lens - something from the late 1960s in nice shape, from a respectable dealer or well-known seller for $300 to 500. These are bullet-proof cameras and ideal for environmental portraiture as I know you want to do. (Camera$ on eBay is not a good dealer BTW.)

After you get the hang of it, you could readily get a classic metal monorail like a Sinar F2 in 4x5 size for about $500-600. These are system cameras that are infinitely expandable and customizable - you could even build it up to an 8x10 P2 with six feet of bellows if you wanted to. The big difference over the Crown is that these will have unlimited and very obvious/simple movements.

For about the same amount of money as both a Crown and a Sinar combined, you could get one of the pretty wooden field cameras that are popular with the old geezers on this forum. In fact, immediately after my post one of the geezerati will tell you that I am full of shit as usual. I get this kind of respect and admiration a lot.

Peter De Smidt
31-Jan-2012, 21:02
A nice Crown Graphic with a 135mm is a great choice. It won't do everything, but then nothing will, and what it does, it does very well. Even if you get some more LF cameras down-the-road, I bet you'd find that you would still use the Crown quite a bit.

36cm2
31-Jan-2012, 21:05
I'm not a geezer. Frank is full of it, as usual. Buy a Chamonoix. ;)_

His advice is good. Pretty wooden folders are also nice. Ugly badass Technicas are nice too. Tiptoeing in is never a bad idea. You've come to the right place for plenty of advice, but only you will know what your selling points are.

All the best,
Leo

Alan Gales
31-Jan-2012, 21:57
One more plus for a Crown Graphic as an environmental portrait camera is that you can hand hold it if necessary!

kevs-2323668
31-Jan-2012, 22:11
thanks Franks, Why is stores better than ebay? which stores have a good selection of Crown Graphics like ebay? Actually I see lot of them on ebay, and the real clean/ Ex+ ones are $600.00 and sold by really knowledge guys.
One of these guys informed me that it does not take a lens below 90mm very well, so then I'm wondering, do I want to dive into a system that has such limitations? (for example I would then get a 90mm for wide angles, just because the Crowns have issues with 45, 65's, 75 etc)
The others $300 to $500 are not to clean, so you don't know what problems you will get later right?
Wont the Toyos and most field 4x5 cameras handle all wide angles just fine?
thanks Peter/ 36 --Do I want to get into the Crowns and then also something else? Isnt' best just to choose one great system?
btw, those wooden field cameras did not appeal to me at all until I saw a photo of the tachinara: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/4x5.htm
Man, I would love that in mint condition. (vg condition, not so much, just mint). Like creating art from a work of art. There does not seem to be too many of those on ebay....

Frank Petronio
31-Jan-2012, 22:22
Ken's more infotainment ;-p I'd trust the advice from almost anyone else here, as they've probably shot 100x more 4x5 than Ken has.

A Tachi is a nice camera but really light, so that you trade some sturdiness. A lot people have them as second cameras. If you want to see some pretty cameras take a look at Lotus or Ebony field cameras... $$$$!

Really a 90mm on 4x5 is as wide as most people want to go, especially with human beings in the photos. None of the true field cameras will be ideal for wider lenses - they may be able to focus but the movements will be limited. What most architectural and wide-angle specialists use are system cameras like the Sinar that can be configured with a special bag bellows and set up so the front and rear standards can almost touch, while still using camera movements. There are also some nice Ebony (and Chinese copies of) wooden wide angle cameras - but then they are of limited use with longer lenses.

Always some sort of trade-off!

But wider than a 90mm on a 4x5 veers off into special effects land for me, distorted and dated to my taste.

So really, what I'd get is a Crown with the 135, then maybe experiment with a 90. You can always get a more specialized camera once you get some experience, and either keep the Crown as an alternative (best for handheld work) or swap it.

This guy is a very reliable seller and you could offer him $100 less and likely get it - I agree they are all over priced on ebay right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRAFLEX-CROWN-GRAPHIC-SPECIAL-4X5-PRESS-VIEW-CAMERA-XENAR-135-MM-/110818289821?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item19cd48e89d#ht_740wt_1263

I know what to look for and if I wait a week or two I can usually find a similar one for $350 but it is always a risk, where I think this seller is very solid (I've bought from him before and know he is negotiable).

I've used a lot of Crowns, now I use a more expensive and versatile Linhof Technika but it is heavier too - always a compromise!

rdenney
31-Jan-2012, 22:23
Ebay is fine, but not all sellers on ebay. Frank was mentioning a particular one. Crowns are common on ebay but not at the reputable stores like KEH. Midwest Photo has a reputation for these cameras, but they never seem to be listed on their website and you have to call them.

You have said you want to hand-hold the camera. With that requirement, there is NO better camera than a folding press camera, which is made to be hand-held. Crown Graphics are the most common and least expensive press cameras, generally. Linhof Technicas are less common and much more expensive. There are others in between, including the Busch Pressman, the MPP Mk VII and Mk VIII, and several others. These are too rare to consider for you. Stick with a Crown. You've found a couple already, but at a price at the upper end, though both were in pretty nice condition.

There are cheaper monorails, and monorails are better at some tasks, like architecture. But they absolutely suck if you want to hand-hold them. (That was a joke--they can't be hand-held at all.)

A decent Crown will maintain its value and it will be fun to own no matter where your large-format desires take you in the future. Many of us have a Crown or Speed Graphic in our pile just for fun--I do--even if we don't use them for anything except Fujiroids at parties (for which they are dandy, by the way). Don't start second-guessing your plan at this point.

Rick "did you email me your number?" Denney

SamReeves
31-Jan-2012, 22:37
I think the question should be is how much crap do you want to haul around? Do you want it on your back, or do you want to lug it around with your arms? Some systems will be heavier than others, monorail vs. field.

Kuzano
31-Jan-2012, 22:37
Misplaced if you are using the short focal lengths as a justification to avoid the Graflex (any of the graphics).

Frankly, none of the folding field cameras work well with short lenses on 4X5. A toyo field is not much better than a crown in that respect.

To conquer the very short lens problems with regard to rise, fall and shift the best solution would be a monorail with a bag bellows and/or a recessed lens board. Very few of the field camera lend themselves to bag bellows. There are recessed board for the Toyo's (spendy when you can find them)

So the Crown or other Graflex really isn't much less of a camera than you think.

I've been there... Toyo 45A, 45CF, 45AII, AX, Tachihara, Wista D, Gowland Pocket (3) (too fiddly to lock focus). My current and only monorail is a cheap and frail Badger M1, marketed some years ago by Badger Graphics. Full movements front and back standards on a short monorail. And quess what???? I hardly use it because I don't shoot shorter than my 90 for the most part.

I'm back to a slightly modified and lightened Graflex Super Graphic. Great compromise.

Aside from my recent post which confirms my lens selection by a number of posters,
90,120, 150 and 210. I doubt I will ever shoot shorter than 90, and the responses on my post pretty much confirmed that. In fact, the 90 provides in most situations too much information in the frame for me.

Now let me say that a Crown Graphic with a 127 was my first LF camera, and I have gone full circle. I have no reservation about carrying around basic and inexpensive tools to get my photography done. I have no need to impress other photographers, since I rarely am around other photographers, and the common audience has little awareness between a $100 graflex and a multi thousand dollar Ebony or other high end camera.

And lastly... I have never handheld large format. The price of film and processing is too expensive to settle for a 25 to 50% keeper rate.

kevs-2323668
31-Jan-2012, 23:01
Frank, that was the guy I spoke to today, great guy, I just sent him this thread link.

But why is lower than 90 bad? I figured that a 75 for example would = a 24 in 35mm and would show more of an interior room, cool for even a people shots. With 35mm is looks ok, with 4x5, it look funky?

So no need for this for something like this -- which claims to take all lenses just fine:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/257305-REG/Toyo_View_180_106_4x5_45CF_Field_Camera.html

Curious, why did you get the Linhoff, looks beautiful, but why spend more then?

Hey Rick! Actually I never said I need to handhold. Actually, I do always handhold for my 35 work, but just assumed with a 4x5, even a Crown, one would want a tripod no?

In other words, this project is not (at least currently), not about running around like a photojournalist, but controlled, calm portraits - geared to getting sharp images that will blow up to large prints with optimal detail. (but who know maybe later handheld would be an interesting people portrait project. But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of 4x5 quality. If you are hand holding you are getting shake and hence, why not use then the Canon 5d, (ie, Dance photos, sports etc)

Frank Petronio
1-Feb-2012, 05:42
You'll find the focal lengths you prefer for smaller formats don't translate as you go larger but everyone has to learn this for themselves by seeing it in action. So, nobody is stopping you from buying a 75mm, just saying it is more likely that a 90mm will be a lot more useful. In any event, the wider lenses will be harder to focus than the longer ones, the ground glass be dimmer and all of these folding cameras will be compressed and scrunched up tight, so no/minimal movements.

The Toyo CF is made of plastic, it is light though. I won't diss it but suggest you try to handle one or buy with a return policy. I am not sure of how well it does with a 75mm lens but it probably can focus one fine.

A Technika is a nicer overall quality camera with more movements and rigidity. But it can cost 10x what a Crown costs.

If you want to pursue the wide angle work several people have recommended monorails with bag bellows now since that is what a professional photographer would use.

IanG
1-Feb-2012, 06:22
Another suggestion is a Super Graphic, same weight as a Crown Graphic but much more versatile. I use both hand held and on a tripod.

Only problem is Super Graphics are far less common, they were Graflex's rather late alternative to the Linhof Technika's and the British MPP's (it'self based on the WWII era Technika).

Ian

chassis
1-Feb-2012, 08:13
I will suggest the Toyo 45A / 45AII cameras. I use an AII and it does lots of things well for me. The lenses I use on this camera go from 58mm to 11" (280mm). Subjects that I shoot include portraits (some with the 58mm lens), still life and outdoor/nature.

The Toyo metal field cameras are well built, precise and offer a wide array of system accessories. Wide angle lenses are easily managed with a recessed lens board. The 11" lens I use requires an extension back, which is a great accessory.

From a portability point of view, I have taken this rig cross county several times in my carry-on luggage with no problems. Presently I am visiting my mother in Florida, and packed the camera and tripod (and film and other gadgets) plus four days of clothing, all contained in two carry on bags.

Finally, I think there is an AII for sale on this site at a very reasonable price.

Peter De Smidt
1-Feb-2012, 08:24
I mainly use a 45 AX, and it's a terrific camera. Personally, I wouldn't pay much more than $350 for a Crown. Their main advantages is that they are solid, easy to use, and _inexpensive_. If you start getting into the $500-$600 range, the Toyos are a better value, unless you really need to use a rangefinder.

Noah A
1-Feb-2012, 08:49
It's not that a 90mm is bad, it's just that on 4x5, it's pretty wide. So for some of us it's as wide as we need to go. I have a 75mm but also a 90mm. Most of the time I actually prefer my 115mm. (and the 75/115 combo is nice.) Of course you just need to try for yourself to see what suits your work. If you shoot color you may need a center filter for lenses wider than 90mm, which eats up some light and some consider it a hassle.

For portraits a field camera is fine, though I'd consider the Toyo a/aII if you can find a good deal. Personally, I love to have some lens fall available when I shoot portraits. Many field cameras, including the Technika I use, don't offer front fall or they do only with complicated machinations. For instance I need to flip the entire camera and mount it upside-down on the tripod. That tends to break the flow of the shoot. It's not a problem for static subjects but it's not ideal for portraits.

So I normally use my other camera, a Technikardan, for portraits. But if you're not going to go with a monorail (which is my first recommendation for portraits with wide lenses) then I'd think about a camera that at least offers some front fall, which the Toyo metal cameras do. It'll make fine-tuning your composition much easier.

Kevin Crisp
1-Feb-2012, 08:53
If you're using an assistant for this project to handle the technical details, wouldn't it be best to find out what he/she prefers?

Jim Jones
1-Feb-2012, 09:17
An Inba-Ikeda will accept a 65mm lens with very limited movements. It is one of the lightest field cameras, and one of the prettiest when one is looking at it instead of through it (and using it is all that really matters).

Crowns are the most popular press camera, but the competition is also good. If no tilts are needed, even the Anniversary Graphic works. Unlike the crown, it uses 4" square lens boards that are easily fabricated and used on several other brands of press and view cameras. The Anniversary lacks the fold-down infinity stops, which are convenient when more than one lens is used.

The Pacemaker Graphic is like the Crown, but with a focal plane shutter. This makes it a bit larger and not quite so good for some wide angle lenses. The focal plane shutter permits using barrel lenses.

The build quality in my B&J press cameras is less than the Graphics, and fewer accessories are available. It does use the 4" square lens board. I've never used the Busch Press camera, but it seems to be similar to the B&J. Its lens board is smaller and more difficult to improvise.

As others have noted, these inexpensive press cameras may not be a replacement for a view or field camera, but supplement them. I use press, monorail, field, and old flatbed cameras that best fit the task at hand. The cost of the whole lot is less than one top quality view camera.

Mike Putnam
1-Feb-2012, 09:45
I love my Wista 4x5. Good combination of sturdiness, lens options, movement, etc. it is not as versatile as Ebony, et al but it is pretty light.

Mike Putnam Photography (http://www.mikeputnamphoto.com/)

Frank Petronio
1-Feb-2012, 10:38
FWIW Chris listed a nice Sinar F2 in the classifieds for $500, pick up a bag bellows for $60 and a used Rodenstock 90.4.5 Grandagon for $600 and have a world-class wide angle outfit.... Not as compact but full movements, very stable, excellent value.

Tim k
1-Feb-2012, 18:42
What part of the world are you near? I'm sure somebody would be happy to show you theirs. 90 is pretty wide. If you have ever been to horseshoe bend, 90 gets it all in from the lazy tourist spot.

Kuzano
2-Feb-2012, 00:22
I put forth that there are basically to styles of LF camera's.

1) Field/Press/Technical/Folding cameras
2) Monorail cameras

there have been no really new developments in either of those styles for many years.

They all do essentially the same thing:

1) provide a light tight chamber
2) hold a lens in an adjustable position at the front of the camera
3) hold a sheet film in an adjustable position at the rear of the camera.

They all have advantages, and shortcomings in the areas of usage, dependability, movements, etc.

The diversity has been well discussed on this thread.

However, my personal observation is that they are all copies of some other builders or companies previous endeavors.

For instance, there has been a lot of discussion on Toyo cameras, which I agree are a good camera, and I've had a few of them. My reasons for owning them is that in the used market, they are generally priced nicely for what they are. A 45A, AII, and even an AX can be found in the $500-600 price range for a very nice example. The CF is less highly regarded, but much lighter and while it's priced at an outrageous $850 new, it can be found in nice condition for $300 - 500. I bought my last near mint CF for $225.

I think of them as the best bang for the buck in a GG view folding, rock solid, metal field camera. Every other brand that is priced over that range is fluff for people who pander to the "What camera are you shooting" crowd. So it comes down to whether you really are after the image from a proper LF camera, which is a light tight box with a positionable lens on the front and a good holder for the film on the back.

But in talking about the Toyo field models, one should look at how they derived their current folding field models. When Graflex decided to discontinue their "Press" line, they packaged up the tooling for the Super and Super Speed Graphics, and sold the package and licensing to Toyo. For a while Toyo produced the identical camera with only the name Toyo Super Graphic at the top of the front standard. Same Camera.

From there Toyo advanced over the years to the current folding field cameras and even dropped the rangefinders. So the Toyo camera's we are discussing in this thread have their roots in the Graflex Super/Super Speed camera. That camera has it's roots in the Crown and other previous press camera's.

That's my case for purporting that everybody's LF camera designs for the most part are not very different from much earlier camera's from other manufacturers. I also contend that any Crown or Super Graphic fully restored operates as nicely (smoothy) as an Ebony, KB Canham, Linhof and other far more expensive cameras (ego fodder).

And as such, they all have one similar limitation, lenses shorter than 90mm. The lens is too close to the film plane for movements on a conventional bellows, and on drop bed bodies, shorter lenses often include the front bed in the image.

It's been an interesting thread, but in response to the original question, aside from our biases, the real answer is "the lowest priced, but completely functional camera that will get the job done". Quite a few responses have been one of the Graflex graphic cameras. They will do the job until your ego can't take it any more and you have to have a fancy name brand, or you find the limitations of the press model and need more capacity in the camera. And a real plus is that if you use a Graflex for a year or so, you may get most or even ALL of your money back.

In any event, I feel safe in saying that your first LF camera will not be your last, so why spend more money than you need to "LEARN" what you really need and perhaps lose money in the process.

Right now the market is strong and actually rising in large format, but I truly don't think that's going to be the case for many more years. What you need is a camera Right Now!!! and get started on the educational process.

Nothing new is on the horizon. It's all old technology.

This thread is now two days old, and time's a wastin boy!!! What's taking so long:D

Frank Petronio
2-Feb-2012, 06:27
He already got a Sinar F it appears, with 90 and 210 lenses, and is now shopping for a good tripod.

Finally....

Tim k
2-Feb-2012, 07:47
Ah yes, so I see.

kevs-2323668
2-Feb-2012, 08:59
Frank, just re reading part of this thread, I got a 90 6.8 Caltar Ex cond. $415.
You recommended the Rodenstock 90.4.5 Grandagon .($600)

For only $200 more or so -- this could be my primary lens. What is the stop difference/ quality different between 4.5 and 6.8? is that a full stop? Two stops?

Frank Petronio
2-Feb-2012, 09:03
Yeah ~ a stop I guess.

The advantage is it will allow greater movements and more even illumination (less vignetting) and bright ground glass viewing. Downside is it is larger.

You paid on the high end for the 90/6.8 Caltar and my $600 price is on the low end for the 90/4.5, so the price difference is probably greater. I like the 6.8 fine, both lenses are just as sharp. Shoot it and you can always swap later.

And now back to Rick... lol

kevs-2323668
2-Feb-2012, 10:09
Thanks Frank, that's cool. So KEH, is not quite as competitive as ebay? that said, I'm still I did the full package over there, fine...got it all over in one shot.

What is the stop difference, not conversant on these-- are 1/2 stops? (maybe there is a chart out there...)So full stop probably. I thought it was about brightness for viewing. Did not know about movements.
One see's vignetting on four corners of image?

rdenney
2-Feb-2012, 10:28
What is the stop difference, not conversant on these-- are 1/2 stops? (maybe there is a chart out there...)So full stop probably. I thought it was about brightness for viewing. Did not know about movements.
One see's vignetting on four corners of image?

Standard stops: 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45...

Each is 1.4 times the one to its left. 1.4 is the square root of 2, and therefore the ratio of diameters (expressed as a fraction of focal length) when the area is reduced by half. Thus, each admits half the light of the one to its left and twice the light of the one to its right.

Thus, an f/5.6 lens is a stop brighter than an f/8 lens, and an f/4.5 lens is a stop brighter than an f/6.8 lens. f/4.5 is about a half a stop brighter than f/5.6, and f/6.8 is about a half a stop brighter than f/8, and about a half a stop less bright than f/5.6. "About" is close enough for this evaluation.

An f/8 lens is noticeably less bright than an f/5.6 lens, but not profoundly so. An f/6.8 lens will only seem slightly less bright than an f/5.6 lens. With a 90, you'll still have to move around the focus screen and aim a loupe into the lens a bit to see it all--that will be a bigger issue than the wide-open stop.

The faster lenses have slightly greater coverage, but I don't think it's important for your intended use. The f/5.6 Super Angulon has a coverage angle of 105 degrees, and the f/8 is 100 degrees, for example. They are all abundant compared to the option you were considering just two days ago. At 65mm, it makes a more important difference.

Rick "who owns five Super Angulons in both f/5.6 and f/8 versions" Denney

kevs-2323668
2-Feb-2012, 10:40
Rick, thanks, if there is a list with those funky f stops. let me know.
And thanks for you great help yesterday, very cool!

Just ordered Gitzo legs on ebay-320 legs.

Did not know an f stop has effect on coverage, that does not happen with 35mm...

Jack Dahlgren
2-Feb-2012, 11:13
Rick, thanks, if there is a list with those funky f stops. let me know.

Did not know an f stop has effect on coverage, that does not happen with 35mm...

It does happen on 35mm, but generally there is enough coverage that you don't notice it except for light falloff in the corners when wide open. Lenses are lenses no matter what the format.

rdenney
2-Feb-2012, 12:38
Did not know an f stop has effect on coverage, that does not happen with 35mm...

Oh, it does, but that's not the difference between the faster and slower wide-field lenses. The smaller the aperture, the less likely the barrel of the lens will intrude on it. When you get your Sinar, focus your 90 at infinity, open the shutter, and look through the open corner of the ground glass and through the lens. As you dial down the aperture, you'll see that at some point you can see the entire aperture without seeing the lens barrel in part of it. Schneider typically rates the coverage of their lenses at f/22. This effect definitely happens with lenses for 35mm camera--vignetting is always greater at wider apertures.

But the difference between f/5.6 and f/8 Super Angulons is the optical design. The f/8 version is a 6-element lens, and the f/5.6 version is an 8-element lens. The f/5.6 version has more coverage by design (it's also bigger, heavier, and when new, more expensive). Within their coverage, both are superb. The current XL series of Super Angulons have more coverage still (but they are still quite expensive). Because 35mm lenses are not used with movements, they are designed to have adequate coverage and the distinction here isn't relevant. Large-format lenses are designed with abundant coverage, and become more desirable therefore, to support more extreme camera movements.

Rick "noting that image quality is more important than coverage in your case" Denney

chassis
8-Feb-2012, 17:52
FYI, saw this on craigslist. It is a Toyo Super Graphic, which shows the origins of today's Toyo field camera.

http://hartford.craigslist.org/pho/2835361199.html

Pretty nice camera. Price seems OK for a mint camera, lens and some film holders. I am not related to the seller in any way.