A Pair of Grubb-y Lenses

[Two23]

Last fall I bought a really nice 180mm Voigtlander Petzval dated ~1865. It was just too cool to pass up! My wife didn't think the price was so cool though, and started watching PayPal and our checking account like a hawk. I agreed no more lenses for the rest of the year. Well, it's a new year! :D I've been looking for lenses made pre-1860, and really want a couple from the 1840s.

Last week a couple of Grubb lenses appeared on the Bay, and I began studying them as much as possible. First one was this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130635260380

Hughes claims it's an Aplanatic from Grubb, c.1858. I really thought it might be older because of the swinging cover, and the fact it looked nothing like the pillbox lenses from 1858+ that Grubb was calling his "aplanat". It also had a very low serial number. I was guessing it was an experimental lens from the 1840s, but really had no idea and couldn't find anything on it. I was going to bid on it, but changed my mind when I saw the second Grubb, which is clearly an early Petzval:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lens-GRUBB-DUBLIN-No-359-size-4-long-diameter-lens-1-/250977556781?pt=UK_Photography_VintagePhotography_VintagePhotoAccessories&hash=item3a6f6d992d

I think a lot of people missed it because there was no "Petzval" in the title. I do think this lens is pre-1860 because someone had crudely cut a slot in the hood. It also looked very "primitive," and it had a serial number of 359. If the first Grubb was from the 1840s, this one might be too based on the lower serial number. So, I bought it for $355. I didn't think that was too bad a price for a pre-1860 Petzval that might even be from the 1840s.

So, anyone have ANY ideas how old it might be? I'm hoping it's from the 1840s but can't really be sure. It is small, and I'm also hoping it covers 4x5, more or less. I'll likely either have a flange made OR an adapter for Copal shutter. Anyone have any thoughts on this lens? I can post better photos when I receive it, but that could be several weeks away. I'm all excited now! :)


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

Based on the other sold Aplanatic Grubb lenses with serial numbers, of which there have quite a few, (including my own) I would think that the middle 1850's for 359 is absolutely correct. Grubb's, and people like Burr's, Petzval lenses seem to drown in the large number of Ross small Petzvals made in the 1850's.
The early "aplanatic" must have been 1854 or later. It is different from the more attractive later aplanatics - but T. Grubb was more used to building telescopes were external design was not so important. I infer from VM that T.Grubb designed the Aplanatic whilst Harold Grubb was responsible for the more common, sleak, design.
Of course, it could be from an earlier than the Aplanatic design - only a check of the positions of the crown/flint lenses would give an answer!

[Two23]

The early "aplanatic" must have been 1854 or later. It is different from the more attractive later aplanatics - but T. Grubb was more used to building telescopes were external design was not so important. I infer from VM that T.Grubb designed the Aplanatic whilst Harold Grubb was responsible for the more common, sleak, design.
Of course, it could be from an earlier than the Aplanatic design - only a check of the positions of the crown/flint lenses would give an answer!



Thanks for looking into this. I'm really hoping the Grubb Petzval I bought is vintage 1840s. I should be receiving it next week, with any luck. I'll take some better photos and measure the diameters of the front & rear groups. This Petzval has a lower serial number than the Aplanatic you suggest may be 1854-55, so there is a chance it's older.


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

Thinking about the Grubb serial numbers and the description of their projects in VM, I have come to the conclusion that Grubb didn't really make photographic objectives until the 1850's - at least not for commercial sale. The organisation of the company was early-on more based on the main product, one-off telescopes. Going over to the "mass" production of lenses must have required new staff and new machines for the smaller lenses. The problems of going into mass product of lenses for companies in the "bespoke" optical business is well illustrated by fact that the "Cooke" patent was sold to Taylor, Taylor and Hobson even though it was developed at a leading UK telescope company. Both the telescope company and T,T & H did well in the 19th century, whilst Grubb disappeared - or rather, went into more profitable business areas !

[Two23]

Thinking about the Grubb serial numbers and the description of their projects in VM, I have come to the conclusion that Grubb didn't really make photographic objectives until the 1850's - at least not for commercial sale.

Hmmm. I was going by the info I read on the CC Harrison/antiqueCameras website. I'm not sure why I bought the Grubb if it's only going to be from the 1850s. It should be coming sometime during the next seven days. I'll get a better look at it, and post shot some images.


Kent in SD

[CCHarrison]

Steven is correct in my opinion - Grubb didnt start commerical sales until his big hit with the Aplanatic lens in the mid 1850's. Grubb was born in 1800 and was well known for microscopes, telescopes, and mechanical devices (he was engineer for the Bank of Ireland) among other inventions. He was a star in Dublin.... I do have references to his optical (photographic) work in the very late 1840's and his fierce competition with Andrew Ross. I'll see if I can locate and post.

Dan

[Steven Tribe]

There is a real problem about when the 1840's and 1850's "names" actually stared making photographic objectives for sale, as most of them were in the "optician", "instrument making/telescope" trades before then.
Both Grubb and Ross were experienced telescope makers who went into the new line of business. The only really reliable dating system for these is the address (when engraved!) on the lens. Early makers often moved quite often to cope with the expanding business.The 19th century registration of who lived/worked at which street and street number was remarkable effective (taxation purposes?). The big database of telescope manufacturers often gives reliable address data when a Google search fails to turn up anything.
I know that Grubb aren't engraved with detailed addresses, but I'll check to see whether there were any different addresses registered in Ireland (still part of the UK then) before the move to "mainland".

[Steven Tribe]

It is a pity that Grubb didn't engrave addresses as he moved quite a lot in Ireland.
Webster's database gives the following:

1 Upper Charlemont Street (1838-54), Dublin
14 Leinster Terrace (1855-58)
15 Leinster Square (1856-63)
14 Leinster Road (1864-78); last three in Rathmines.

The change around 1855/56 corresponds to the invention of the Aplanatic and the move may have been necessary for production workshops. Note that 2 addresses were needed in the period 56-58. Perhaps one of our Irish resident members could check out the addresses?
Note that Trail Taylor, writing in 1892, says that the Aplanatic appeared in 1857.

There is a book from 1997(?) - ISBN 0 7503 0454 5 - about the Grubbs - mostly telescopes. Out of print but available through ABE and others.
The Upper Charlemont Street address was used for a public access observatory ( see photo) and the other picture is not the KKK but Grubb workers busy with the melt for the Australian telescope lens!

[Two23]

It's fascinating how photo technology seemed to mushroom and take off very early on. My lens hasn't arrived from UK yet, but I'm hoping it will make it before 2/14. The last lens I bought from UK, an 1855 G.Wood pillbox, took at least 3 weeks. I think they get hung up somewhere as our "Homeland Insecurity" people think they look like bombs or something. I'll post photos as soon as it comes.


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

I have looked again at both Grubb listings.
The "odd" aplanatic is not really so different from the usually seen. Some camera maker has just stipulated that it has to have a focussing mount and a basic slide shutter in front. I'm sure the front screws off as in the usual aplanat - perhaps even with the bayonet type extension.
I have checked the date of the UK patent 2574 which was 1857.
This aplanatic has the serial number 546 and is engraved patent so can't be earlier than 1857. Your Petzval has 359 which probably makes it a few years earlier.