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kevs-2323668
29-Jan-2012, 19:48
I've been told that Crown Graphic would be great for 4x5 location. But I'm not sure of it's ability to take wide angle lenses. Anyone know? thanks. Same question for Gowland, if anyone is familar with that camera as well. thanks.

Dan Fromm
29-Jan-2012, 20:58
The 4x5 Crown's minimum flange-to-film distance is 52.4 mm. I think that the shortest lens that will cover 4x5 and that has a minimum flange-to-film distance greater than that is 45/4.5 Apo-Grandagon. Next is the 47/5.6 Super Angulon XL.

Understand, with that short a lens the only movement available with a Crown will be a little front rise.

johnielvis
29-Jan-2012, 22:07
crown--man....65 is about as wide as I'd go

gowlandFLEX is no way a wide camera unless you can find 4x5 retrofocus lenses

gowland pocket it teeny tiny and maybe able to do wides, but not like a regular wide camera---you're better off with a slight heavier monorail and bag bellows that's plentiful

dsphotog
29-Jan-2012, 22:32
I've used a 65 Super Angulon on a Crown, drop the bed and use the inner lens rail.

Kuzano
29-Jan-2012, 23:06
The Gowland Pockets, and I've had three, have very stiff bellows. I wouldn't plan on much movement below a 90mm lens. The bellows are sharply tapered and the taper limits movements at the shorter lengths. I don't know if there is bag bellows for the Pocket, but I've never seen reference to one.

However, the Graphic has to use the drop bed function to not have the door show up in lenses shorter than 90, or 60. This is a question you may want to get answered. The Gowland Pocket is a monorail and is not hampered on short lenses by a door as a press or folding field camera has.

The Gowland Pocket is fiddly on lockdowns. Everything is friction and the lock downs are either handled by a short grip on the lockdowns, or an allen wrench which does not apply much leverage on lockdown. Easy for the camera to slip on focus while inserting film and pulling dark slides.

kevs-2323668
30-Jan-2012, 08:11
Dang, I did not know there were a lot of Gowlands. actually the one I'm looking at is:
Gowland Architectual Scenic View Camera.

Sorry, I'm brand new to 4x5, so I don't understand the techno terms here. Can one put it in laymans terms what max wide angle lens can work for these two cameras, and if not easily, then in laymans terms what the adjustment is and how complex it is to do that, and who does that, and if the adjustment parts are easily available. thanks!

kevs-2323668
30-Jan-2012, 08:12
PS, to be clear. I'm just shooting environmental portraits, so I don't need much, (tilt,shift, rises etc--need to learn all that...) that's why I'm looking at these units.

Jack Dahlgren
30-Jan-2012, 13:41
In my opinion a crown is good for environmental portraits as you can handhold it and use the rangefinder + wire frame and get away from need for a tripod.

As others have mentioned, the configuration of the camera makes it more difficult to use wide lenses than a monorail style camera. But I think you probably don't need as wide a lens for environmental portraits as you might imagine if you have not used LF before.

The beauty of old LF equipment like this is you can just buy one and use it, then sell it later for about the same price if you don't like it.

If I were you I'd find one with a mildly wide lens, make sure the range finder is calibrated and then go out shooting. This will tell you if LF is what you really want to do as you will find out about:

loading, carrying, developing and printing LF film
carrying and operating a 5 pound camera
manual focus
the 12 or so steps involved in taking a single exposure

If you try it and like it, and find limitations in your equipment you can address them then.

kevs-2323668
30-Jan-2012, 13:50
thanks Jack, cool info.
Handheld is ok? I'm using strobes so maybe the strobes would freeze the image? I do have a tripod, but actually am a handheld 35 guy.
Is it rangefinder like 35 or top down? Obviously, 35 style is more comfortable for me.
Have you heard of focusing beams for Crown? Someone mentioned it.
How do you know the rangefinder is calibrated? do not know what that means.
What is the widest lens one can put on it safely, and why don't I "need" wide angle as much with LF. thanks!

rdenney
30-Jan-2012, 14:31
Sorry, I'm brand new to 4x5, so I don't understand the techno terms here. Can one put it in laymans terms what max wide angle lens can work for these two cameras, and if not easily, then in laymans terms what the adjustment is and how complex it is to do that, and who does that, and if the adjustment parts are easily available. thanks!

Gowland has passed away and I suspect if one attempts to buy a Gowland camera, one might find it difficult, even if the web site is still up and running. (I last visited his site when he died and can't look at it on the computer where I am now, so I don't know if he has a successor who is delivering from remaining stock.) He was not the only person to make cameras of that style, and there are cameras of similar type on ebay made in China for not much money. DaYi is one brand of such, available here (http://bhcamera.us/dayi45.php).

A 65 will work on a Crown, but any shorter may find the bed of the camera as part of the photo, even if the lens can be mounted to fit. I can't imagine making photographs of people with a 65mm lens on the 4x5 format--that is a very short lens for 4x5 and will be the equivalent of a fairly extreme wide-angle lens on small format. Crowns have a bed that folds down to act as a base for the focus track on which the lens standard is clamped. That tracked is hinged where the bed folds, and a lens that short has to clamp on the film side of that hinge. Then, you drop the bed to fold down even more to get it out of the way of the image. With the lens on the inner track like that, you can't use the wire frame finder, because the box of the camera prevents erecting it. Composing on ground glass will be a challenge--the Graphic focus screens were not really designed for lenses that short.

Assuming you really want a lens that has a focal length less than half the diagonal of the film, then one of those DaYi cameras might be the way to go. It's modeled on the Cambo Wide, which is better made but much more expensive when you can find one.

With the DaYi, you'll still need the lens. Any 65mm Schneider Super Angulon will work, either f/5.6 or f/8 versions. The f/5.6 will work better with 4x5. It will need to be mounted in a Number 0 shutter, which excludes some of the older 65/8 Super Angulons, unless you get an adapter for mounting a #00 shutter in a #0 hole. They will also sell you the camera configured for shorter lenses like the 47mm or 58mm Super Angulon XL, but either of those lenses will cost you a lot more.

You'll also need a film back of a brand compatible with the DaYi you buy. The Toyo is probably the easiest to find at a reasonable price.

So, you find a 65mm f/5.6 Super Angulon and the ground-glass back for a Toyo, Horseman, or Sinar view camera, and then buy the DaYi that mates up with the back. Remove the rear lens cell, remove the retaining ring from the rear of the shutter, insert the shutter into the front of the focus mount, screw on the retaining ring and tighten, screw on the rear lens cell, and you have a camera.

If you don't want something as wide as the 65 on the 4x5 format, then a 90 is much easier on a Crown. But if you buy a Crown with an already-installed 127mm or 135mm lens with a rangefinder already calibrated for that lens, your life will be far less complicated. 127mm and 135mm are both still wider than normal on the 4x5 format (normal is 150), and those lenses really are fun for environmental portraits. Those were the standard wide-angle press lenses back when the Crown was the standard press camera.

If all that is too technical for you, then I suggest avoiding large format. It is by nature technical and requires some meticulousness. The rewards are there, but so is punishment for those unwilling to embrace the required attention to detail.

Rick "wondering what lenses you prefer for smaller formats" Denney

rdenney
30-Jan-2012, 14:38
thanks Jack, cool info.
Handheld is ok? I'm using strobes so maybe the strobes would freeze the image? I do have a tripod, but actually am a handheld 35 guy.
Is it rangefinder like 35 or top down? Obviously, 35 style is more comfortable for me.
Have you heard of focusing beams for Crown? Someone mentioned it.
How do you know the rangefinder is calibrated? do not know what that means.
What is the widest lens one can put on it safely, and why don't I "need" wide angle as much with LF. thanks!

To add (you wrote this as I was writing my previous response): A Crown Graphic with a 127 or 125 can be focused using an attached rangefinder, either on the side or the top depending on which model you get (and I suggest a Pacemaker which could have either). That is not used for composing, just focusing--it won't show the whole frame. The viewfinder is not much use, but the wire-frame sport finder is more useful. Or, you can open the lens and focus on the ground glass, then close the lens, insert the film, and make the exposure.

For hand-held work with real viewing, just get a Crown with a 127 or 135 and forget the Gowland and similar cameras. It was designed for hand-held operation. You'll need a lens with a shutter that has an X flash synch, and probably a synch cord that will connect a vintage bi-post plug on that shutter to the PC connector used by most flashes.

There are other choices for handheld work, but the Crown Graphic was a press camera and was made for it.

Question: What is your favorite lens on 35mm for similar kinds of portraits?

Rick "noting additional requirements" Denney

johnielvis
30-Jan-2012, 17:38
the "focus beams" are an attachment that goes on the rangefinder and projects light OUT of the rangefinder onto the subject...you line the 2 beams up into 1 and you got focus in the dark.

I hanhold my crown with 65 all the time....bed dropped of course..but I don't bother with the rangefinder for that--not accurate enough...for the wides..just get a decent focus scale and do scale focus---tape another handwritten scale on the bed and you're in business...forget the rangefinder for the wides...leave it calibrated for the stock crown lens...which is wide itself it it's a 127

kevs-2323668
30-Jan-2012, 19:08
thanks rdenny, will send a PM about this.
John, cool, have you tried the focus beams? I'm not shooting in the dark! It's it just for the dark? I thought maybe it helped lock in focus in normal shooting situations.

Kuzano
3-Feb-2012, 17:20
Some things about the Gowland Pockets if you are still considering them. I have owned four of these, and liked them for their strong suit... monorail in VERY packable form. I don't think you can find a "many movement" camera as light as the Pocket anywhere else.

Some things to consider:

1) most variable camera in construction, I have ever seen. I had four and no two of them were identical. They all seem to be custom made to me. For that reason, you won't know exactly what movements you may get buying one, without close inspection of the camera. Seriously... custom construction I'd bet, all the way.

2) They can be very fiddly to set up...time consuming and somewhat frustrating to attain and maintain exacting movements and focus. That's partly because major movements, particularly locking the front standard in place is very iffy. It's totally friction wheel in a groove and must be precisely set to avoid slippage. And only one of the four I had were built with enough leverage on the knobs to tighten down most of the other movements. Therefore setup, setting perspective movements and focus are very time consuming and frustrating. It can be done, but if it had not been for the payoffs of monorail type movements, total breakdown in a pack, and 3 pounds total weight, with a lens on the board, I would never have gotten my 2nd, 3rd or 4th one.

3) the one that worked for me had many movements on front, and tilt and swing on the back, and locked down nicely because of leverage on the locks. But that damnable slipping front focus system forever eluded me as being workable. And that's to say that the tension on the very stiff bellows could often pull the front standard out of focus on lenses over 150.

They did have a great option for short lenses, as the rail was actually two short rails that met in the middle (tripod clamp). You could slide one of the rails completely through the middle clamp and have a very very compact short focal length camera. Again 3 pounds broken down in the pack WITH the lens. I used mostly 90 and 150 with the Pockets. I always found that the bellows were stiff enough that they would shift the focus standard when extended. After I gave up on them, it occurred to me that the solution to my biggest downside of the camera would have been to drill and tap a hole into the monorail space and put a knob with a threaded bolt into that hold to absolutely lock the front standard.

By then, I was done with Gowland Pockets, and now use a considerably hacked and lightened Super Graphic, which I intend to modify a bit more to add tilt to the back.

I might mention that rangefinders and hand holding do not work for me.

GG focus and a tripod are what I favor.

Good luck.

John Kasaian
3-Feb-2012, 17:51
Times a-wastin'! Get yourself a Calumet 400 or Graphic View I or II, put it on Tiltall, order a box of Arista and a lens and start shooting before you get too old ;)

Kuzano
3-Feb-2012, 20:07
OLD, and still shooting 35mm:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/kuzano/Bruce001Medium.jpg

;)

ki6mf
4-Feb-2012, 07:42
If you go with a 65MM or other wide angle lens you normally need use a bag bellows. Bag bellows are used for a couple of reasons. To focus the wide angle lens you have to rack it back against the back standard (rear of the camera) and the accordions style bellows become compressed and make focusing hard. The other use is moving the lens up or down left or fight (swings and tilts). Bag bellows allows for more movement if needed. Keep in mind that you can swing and tilt so much that the lens does not cover part of the film and you get vignetting or an arc on your film. I think most Graphic do not use bag bellows and do not know if they are available. if you can get by with the regular bellows and wont use movements to much the crown will work fine. You may start shooing landscapes or architecture where you would use movement to correct perspective and a View Camera or Field Camera is better suited for those requirements.

kevs-2323668
4-Feb-2012, 08:15
I went for a Sinar F 4x5... thanks.

Neal Chaves
6-Feb-2012, 18:53
I have a TRF Crown with a 65mm f8 Fujinon SW cammed to the RF. I use a 20mm Russian viewfinder to compose accurately on 4X5 hand-held. The lens is positioned on the inner track, with the bed dropped. The infinity stops are placed behind the front standard. The lens folds up in the case when the stops are lowered and the front standard is fully recessed. 65mm cam is shown at lower right.

rdenney
6-Feb-2012, 20:49
I have a TRF Crown with a 65mm f8 Fujinon SW cammed to the RF. I use a 20mm Russian viewfinder to compose accurately on 4X5 hand-held. The lens is positioned on the inner track, with the bed dropped. The infinity stops are placed behind the front standard. The lens folds up in the case when the stops are lowered and the front standard is fully recessed. 65mm cam is shown at lower right.

Neal, would you be interested in making another one? Do you think it would work as well with a 65/8 Super Angulon? What about with a Speed instead of a Crown?

Rick "who has a TRF Speed and a lonely 65" Denney

Neal Chaves
7-Feb-2012, 12:30
Rick,
If the 65 SA will focus to infinity on the inner rails of the TRF Speed, then it can be done. Check it out and if it's good to go PM me and I'll quote you a price. You will need a set of stops to go with it.
Neal

rdenney
7-Feb-2012, 13:02
Rick,
If the 65 SA will focus to infinity on the inner rails of the TRF Speed, then it can be done. Check it out and if it's good to go PM me and I'll quote you a price. You will need a set of stops to go with it.
Neal

Thanks. You will hear from me. I'd love to get that 65/8 in operation, and actually be able to use that top rangefinder for more than the 127mm lens covered by the current cam. The 65/8 is PERFECT for a Graphic--no need for movements because it doesn't have the coverage anyway. Makes the Speed much more usable for me.

Although, finding infinity stops hasn't been all THAT easy!

Rick "who needs a couple of pairs at the moment" Denney