Storing processed Negatives - Inside or Outside the Darkroom?

[DanK]

Does anyone store their processed negatives inside their darkroom? any Ill effects?

Trying to free up some space in my shop, and have always stored negatives in clear file pages in binders outside of the darkroom. I have room in the darkroom for them (on the dry side), but worried about chemical vapors (fixers, toners, etc) affecting the negatives over time....

Anyone stored negatives in a darkroom longterm without ill effects?

How about prints?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

[Jody_S]

In one of my several moves in the last 5 years (post-divorce), I stored several boxes of negatives in an outdoor shed on the back of my property, as I rented out the house. That winter, a raccoon decided one of my boxes of negs would make a great nest to raise her 4 cubs. It took 3 of us to remove mama and the 4 babies (to a safer location). My negs were covered in muck and smelled strongly of urine. After a wash & dry, 95% of them are just fine. In fact my negs survived far better than my digital files, I've now lost about half of those due to multiple hard disk failures and the occasional boneheaded erasure.

I think we worry far too much about them. The 2 major issues I've had are heat and direct sunlight. And scratching from leaving them unprotected in the bottom of a sock drawer, when I was 9.

[jp]

I keep about two years worth in my darkroom. The rest stay in a safer place in my detached garage; where there is dehumidifier and fire risk is lower.

[jk0592]

Dry side or wet side, there is always more humidity in the darkroom than elsewhere in the house. There is also the odd powder chemistry that might float in the air... I keep the negatives in safe sleeves inside a binder, in library shelves inside the house.

[Jim Noel]

I wish I kept all of my negatives away from the dampness of the darkroom, but I am lazy and have a habit of not putting them where they belong after a printing session.
Even with this neglect, I have not had any damage.

[Ari]

In the darkroom, but in a closet.
No damage, even in my laziest moments.
They're tough little buggers...

[Vaughn]

I would just take a look around -- are there any hoses, etc that if they leak/break/etc, will your negatives get wet?

New Mexico is relatively geographjcally stable compare to the West Coast -- we have to worry about what a good shaker might do to our darkrooms.

What is above your negative storage area? (a general question just to think about.) Bathroom? Laundry room? Kitchen?

I have lost prints from dampness (under the house -- I know dumb). I have lost 50 mounted 16x20 prints due to ants nesting inside the print boxes (stored dry in the garage during the summer until I could figure out where to keep them in the new-to-us house). But I still have the negs -- even though the paper is no longer available (Portriga Rapid).

Vaughn

[John Olsen]

I keep mine in plastic sleeves in binders inside a metal cabinet, but in the darkroom. After each wet session I run a heater for awhile with the door open to dry out the air. I printed some negs a few months ago that were from 1988 and they still looked fine. A few years ago I had to leave them all in boxes in a storage locker that ranged from very hot to freezing for two years with no apparent damage. They must be pretty tough.

[ic-racer]

I store my enlargers and all the lenses in my darkroom, and it is humidity controlled so those things don't get buggered up. This makes it a good place to keep the negatives and prints. I use hanging files in those plastic bins from the office supply store.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/ic-racer/Enlarger.jpg

[Drew Wiley]

Nuts! Just plain nuts! Unless you have a dedicated dry room for mounting prints,etc.
you're risking exposure not only to humidity but to chemicals fumes, fingerprints w/
fixer on them and who knows what else. I won't even put an enlarger in the same
room as a sink or process line. Not everybody has that particular luxury. But negs??? I just can believe it! Sounds like raising pet hamsters in the D-Con factory.

[Drew Wiley]

And yes - I have seen entire collections ruined, of both negs and prints, some valuable.

[Vaughn]

I half to admit that I do not like even storing photo paper in the same room as the water and chemicals. I have to replace enlarging lenses occasionally due to mold. But not many over the 20 years I have taken care of the darkroom (19 enlargers around the sink -- 29 lenses on the enlargers). And majority of the lenses were already 10+ years old when I started.

It would be better to store them seperatly, but the cost of any system of removing the lenses when not in use would be more than than the cost of replacing the lenses killed by mold/fungus.

Drew -- you remind me that AA lost a lot of negs due to a fire in his darkroom.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh the tales I could tell! My grandfather had several shelves full of 16th & 17th Century books and fabrics that would be worth a fortune now if the carpenter ants
hadn't eaten them to bits. All my own brother's chromes were lost to mold except the handful of 4X5's he'd filed with a NYC stock agency, and just these gave him a
decent income for about a decade. Outgassing chem are another issue. Several collectors paid over six figures collectively for a number of irreplaceable early prints
improperly stored by a prominent SF gallery. Within six month the images themselves couldn't even be recognized. The lawyers loved that one. One thing we
can be sure of: a helluva lot of mediocre images will be archivally preserved to annoy the future, while on the other hand, I know of some pretty solid photographers (particularly of the last generation) who were fairly self-deprecating,
and whose heirs desperately wish they had been more thoughtful with how they
stored their work.

[Vaughn]

That is why one has to be careful when making carbon prints. If you make a lousy image, the print will be around for for your relatives to laugh at for centuries.

[Kirk Gittings]

I no longer store negatives in my my house after a couple of freak accidents. I always kept them in archival sleeves in acid free boxes on shelves way off the floor in the darkroom, thinking I was doing the best that can be done.

But then one day a sweat soldered joint (some 6 years after installation) developed a pin hole size leak that sprayed a fine jet of water 6 feet onto my storage shelf. It ran for many days before i went back into the darkroom and discovered it. The moisture completely destroyed all the negatives from two personal projects.

So I moved them out to a room with no water in it at all. I had one desk set up just for sorting and generally had a stack of negatives on it for sorting or cataloging. That winter we had a very wet heavy snow-extremely unusual for this part of NM, and a fresh roof leak developed right smack dab over that desk........

[Jim Jones]

I lost about 10 years of negatives in a darkroom in an outbuilding, but that was due to fire. In the 27 years since then, negatives are stored in the new darkroom. 4x5 film is stored in old film boxes, 35mm in the no longer available Print File negative wallets. Both systems keep the negatives flat and packed tight enough to reduce access by contaminantes and insects. 35mm Kodachromes are also packed tightly in file boxes, and most look good after up to 6 decades.

[Vaughn]

I guess the general rule is that the longer one is involved with photography (35 yrs for me), the greater the chance that the shit will hit the fan...

So it pays to hedge your bets by safe storage of negatives and prints.

Vaughn

[John Kasaian]

I store mine in another part of the house (along with my cameras and lenses)---never in the dark room

[gth]

Maybe this is a good idea?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Honeywell-Fireproof-Waterproof-Digital-Safe/8458072?findingMethod=rr

2.1 cu ft, holds 21 reams of paper they claim. Cost is $350.

/gth

[Bill Burk]

The coolest/driest spot in my home is my closet.

So I don't keep clothes there, instead I have a metal cabinet where I keep my originals and prints.

My negatives are only in the darkroom short-term while waiting to be printed.

Only problem is they have been waiting in the darkroom about four years now.

They're still OK, I just went through them all looking for a particular shot. But I know they can't stay there - the lack of temperature control and high humidity is really bad for them.

[Brian Ellis]

A darkroom is one of the last places I'd store negatives unless it's set up for that purpose. Chemical fumes, powder, dust, all that stuff you get in the typical fume room can't be good for negatives.

[johnielvis]

if it's protected from the environment, then there's no problem with storing in the darkroom....

that being said, I find my best protection from the darkroom environment is OUT of the darkroom

[Drew Wiley]

In most climates a tightly sealed fire safe is a about the worst thing imaginable. A true
data safe with MONITORED HUMIDITY CONTROL internally can work, but belive me, this ain't the kind of thing you're gonna find at WalMart or Office Cheapo, and is going
to cost more than a new Linhof. Archival boxes on wire racks with air circulation around them are best. Closets can contain all kinds of fumes and be terrible in certain climates for humidity, so make sure any paint etc is thorougly outgassed and that a bunch of old clothes and mothballs aren't in there. Avoid cheapo particle or strand board shelving like the plague - it's full of formaldehyde; and certain vinyl coverings
on shelving or shoes, umbrellas, whatever, outgas plasticizers. True baked enamel
coatings on metal cabinets are relatively inert, but metal drawers are more susceptible
to condensation. Sometimes they can be insulated with fomecore liners. You can also
order inexpensive humidity monitoring strips resembling litmus paper to see which part
of the house or office is most stable. Obviously humid climate are riskier than dry ones.

[Ron McElroy]

I only store the negatives I working with in the darkroom and I will keep freshly processed negs there until I make contacts proofs. Several years ago I lost a large quantity of negatives to an unknown roof leak. They were stored in metal case inside a closet that wasn't opened often.

[bigdog]

One thing we can be sure of: a helluva lot of mediocre images will be archivally preserved to annoy the future, ...

My negatives are safe ...

[bob carnie]

Quite a few of my clients rent safe boxes at their Bank, I am purchasing a fire proof safe for my wife's negs, her fathers Al Paterson who has an amazing collection of steam train negatives, and as well all my negatives. This will be kept at home.

I have just spent the last 6 months scanning all my so called keepers, another 6 months to go, this is all small format stuff I want to make alt prints from digital negs. All the non keepers are being thrown into the round storage container.
Currently all my 4x5 and 8x10 film is going to be enlarger based and I will store all in a fire proof safe.

I do not, keep any negatives in the darkroom as we have it at fairly high controlled humidity year round , to keep dust down and paper moist.

I am concerned about long term storage of negatives, as I have seen some pretty nasty collections that smell like vinegar, and I am not a photo conservator and need to up my knowledge of this storage issue.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Mine are in the darkroom, but it's on my todo list to get them to a safer spot. Of course where I was going to move them to (in the work room outside the darkroom) I suffered a leak of a different sort which killed a densitometer. My old cat suffered a seizure on the first floor. Her bladder let loose. I noticed it because I heard the popping and saw the arcs of light in the other room as the densitometer shorted out. Took me few minutes to figure out there were no pipes leaking above me, and then to find the poor cat. I was just glad I hadn't finished cleaning the area on the desk where the negative boxes were going, or they would have been soaked. I don't know what the lesson is, but it could be that no where is truly safe. But areas with pipes and chemicals are probably less safe than others.

[KenM]

Bruce Barnbaum stores his negs in his darkroom - he makes his lively hood from these negs, and he's never had an issue, so if it works for him, it'll work for me. He does store his prints outside the darkroom, however. Living in the Cascades as he does, it's awfully wet - he doesn't do anything special to maintain a consistent environment

I store my negs in my darkroom - any humidity after a printing session quickly dissipates in our dry climate...

[sanking]

Just make sure to store negatives five or six feet above ground level if there are any male cats around. If a cat urinates on the negatives there will be a big clean-up job ahead.

Sandy

[Drew Wiley]

I'd hardly consider BB an expert on archiving. And I'd just like to see a few of you folks fill out a job appication for a museum or auction house back room with a comment like that on you're resume. They'd punch the button in a split second, and down the chute you'd go! But I know all about cats. Generally no problem, but once in awhile my wife
will take in a sick old porch cat, and two male cats in the house are always trouble.
All my storage racks are way above their "zone", and all my prints are deep in flat files
anyway, so very well protected. But in the last incident one did back up to an electrical outlet and create some especially noxious steam as the fixture shorted out!

[bob carnie]

Kind of like what I am thinking,
we have an old one that is packed with negs and now need more
thanks for posting the link.

Maybe this is a good idea?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Honeywell-Fireproof-Waterproof-Digital-Safe/8458072?findingMethod=rr

2.1 cu ft, holds 21 reams of paper they claim. Cost is $350.

/gth

[Drew Wiley]

Again, a cheapo fire safe like that might be worse than nothing. No telling what kinds
of paints or whatever are in it. And very difficult to provide air circulation for even a
simple Dri-Out type dessicant canister to work. What you need is a data safe, or else
build your own stone vault and properly line and shelf it. A quality gun safe can also
work; but as most gun owners know, if you don't keep the silica gel or whatever fresh,
the guns will rust. Safes which keep fire out also keep humidity concentrated inside.
There's a distinct technique to properly using storage devices. Might want to visit the
archiving dept of a local musuem properly trained in photographic media.

[Kevin Crisp]

I've stored them in the darkroom since the late 60's. No problems, even with the ones in glassines, which turned out not to be so archival as we thought back then. They are on upper shelves and the darkroom has a floor drain.

[bob carnie]

good point about the fire safe

I have been to a major Musuem that has a vinegar problem, I am not sure how they fixed it. All the negs were stored in one of those large metal units .
My father in law has a monster collection in old Agfa Boxes in his basement, I have not smelled any vinegar and its the same timeline as the Museums work.



Again, a cheapo fire safe like that might be worse than nothing. No telling what kinds
of paints or whatever are in it. And very difficult to provide air circulation for even a
simple Dri-Out type dessicant canister to work. What you need is a data safe, or else
build your own stone vault and properly line and shelf it. A quality gun safe can also
work; but as most gun owners know, if you don't keep the silica gel or whatever fresh,
the guns will rust. Safes which keep fire out also keep humidity concentrated inside.
There's a distinct technique to properly using storage devices. Might want to visit the
archiving dept of a local musuem properly trained in photographic media.

[ic-racer]

Seems like some of you have pretty toxic darkrooms. If negatives and prints can't be kept there, I'd not want to breathe the air.

[Drew Wiley]

All kinds of things are in a darkroom which are minor health hazard with common sense
and reasonable ventilation, but which can be utter voodoo to film. Fixer, acetic acid,
ammonia, ordinary cleansers for the sink, sheer humidity or its fluctuations. Color darkrooms are of course nastier. You guys remind me of an old Indian from my youth.
He had just celebrated his 115th birthday, and a reporter wanted to know the secret
for his long life. So the old guy replied, "clean living". When asked to elaborate, he said
that when he was 104 he learned that smoking was hazardous to his health, so threw
his pipe away! Unfortunately, someone is likely to take this as a cue that smoking is
harmless, despite the millions of people who aren't as lucky as that particular Indian.
Same with dkrm fumes.

[ROL]

Maybe this is a good idea?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Honeywell-Fireproof-Waterproof-Digital-Safe/8458072?findingMethod=rr

2.1 cu ft, holds 21 reams of paper they claim. Cost is $350.

/gth

I thought so:


http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/SupportPics/LFPF/NegativeSafe.jpg

...in my office, something less than $150 at Costco. Only problem is I outgrew it 6 or 7 years ago and am still weighing the pros and cons of getting a larger standup (gun style) safe, which would pretty much have to go in the garage where temps vary from the mid 20's to over 120º. I am under absolutely no illusions that my negatives need survive any longer than my printing career.

BTW, the sign fibs a bit – I also keep at least one backup hard drive in it, also of absolutely no value to a thief.

[Drew Wiley]

My brother liked to look like a pro photog so drove a Porche with fancy Halliburton cases in it. To discourage theft he put a big label on his Rollei SL66 case, "Dead Cat
Enclosed". Didn't work. Gear got stolen anyway. I take the opposite approach when
traveling and make sure my gear pack looks like something from Grapes of Wrath,
and that my truck is appropriately muddy.

[Greg Miller]

I hope no-one is planning on a fire safe to protect their film from fire. Most fire safes allow heat to get to 350+ degrees (paper burns at 450+ degrees). Most film will start (distorting and other bad things) around 250 degrees.

[Scott Walker]

I store my negatives in print file sleeves in binders and once contact printed the contact prints are put in the binders with the corresponding negative or set of negatives then the binder leaves the darkroom to be stored in my studio area.

I take kind of a "These I like" sort of approach to things. The negatives that I like get enlarged and printed to a finished print on fiber based paper. A working copy gets printed to 8x10 on FB paper with all the necessary printing information, circles drawn where to dodge & burn, paper type, grade, enlarger settings, lens & lens setting, chemistry, & toning etc. Basically enough information to reproduce a fairly close rendition of the original without looking at it for reference (although I always keep a print for reference).

These working copy prints get stored with the negative in a binder in the darkroom :confused: .....it makes no sense to me either, but that is my work flow. I guess mediocrity will outlive the good stuff.

[Drew Wiley]

Greg - that's another reason I mentioned a true data safe. But these start around
$3500 and you still have to figure out internal humidity control. Cheaper to just to build your own granite vault and waterproof it with hydraulic cement. No telling what
on earth those cheapo made-in-China Walmart safes are good for. I'm pretty sure any
info on a disc would melt inside one in a serious fire, and film certainly would.

[DanK]

Thanks All !!! Appreciate the responses... Think I'll stick with storing negatives outside of the darkroom...

Cheers,
Dan