advice on setting up a shot

[bomzi]

I'm working on a personal project photographing guys that work in convenience stores in NYC. I had initially done this using my 35mm digital but want to reshoot using my newly acquired Sinar f2 (woohoo!). Its important that everything in the shot be in focus so I think I need to use a flash to increase my DOF. Any thoughts on how to set this up? I've attached an older image as reference. I'm going to use a 90mm lens to capture the space around the subject as these stores tend to be very small and I have a canon 430ex flash that probably needs a softbox on it... not sure.

I appreciate any advice.

thanks!
Randhir

[Peter De Smidt]

I don't think that you'll have enough light with that flash. You'll need at least F22.

[Jody_S]

My Metz 60CT4 (combo bounce & fill in one unit) would do it at f22 or possibly f32 on manual, with a fast film, but even then I don't know if you'll get enough DOF with a 90. You could go with a 65 SA, zone-focus before you go inside?

[chassis]

I'm thinking like Jody, a 65 or even 58 SA would be good. I have done some indoor portraits with a 58 and like the results.

[bomzi]

Thanks for the responses!
Forgive my ignorance. Whats a 65 SA?

[cdholden]

Super Angulon

[John NYC]

I just bought a 1,300 watt second monolight to use with my 8x10. I think that is the kind of firepower you need to get even illumination in the shot as you framed it and use a reasonable f-stop. Your Canon Speedlight will not cut it for this shot you showed, imho.

Go to a website (or get an iPhone app) to calculate the DOF for the lens/film size. I don't think you are going to be anywhere near to everything being in focus with that small of an area. That front counter is maybe three feet away from your camera? If you focus there at 3 feet, at f/22 with a 90mm lens on 4x5, you will only have from 2.44-3.99 ft in "acceptable" focus -- a total of 1.46 feet. If you go up to f/45 (where you will definitely be seeing diffraction) you can have 3.51 feet of DOF.

Using a 65mm lens with the same parameters, you would have 31.7 feet of DOF. But remember, you will now have some pretty serious wide angle distortion going on and the pictures might look weird.

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi Randhir,

As others have suggested, moving to LF will leave its mark on your images, for better or for worse. If you have time to go in, set up some/several lights, check exposure in various positions, and make the necessary adjustments/ introduce the required light modifiers, match the perspective of your digital shots with the corresponding LF lens, and use camera movements to place the plane of focus, I'm sure you can get results that look essentially similar to your example, but in the process you will change the dynamic to such a great extent that the character of the images isn't likely to be very similar to your example.

On the other hand, if you want to walk in with a Crown Graphic and a mounted flash powerful enough to allow you to zone focus and compose via the wire finder, ala Weegee, you might retain some of the candid character of your example, though the overall look is likely to be very different.

In short, formats are not interchangeable except under controlled conditions, and not always. That being said, I think a project centered on going around at night shooting convenience store clerks should maintain some tension. Good luck!

[Brian C. Miller]

I'm working on a personal project photographing guys that work in convenience stores in NYC. ... I'm going to use a 90mm lens to capture the space around the subject as these stores tend to be very small and I have a canon 430ex flash that probably needs a softbox on it... not sure.

DOF Master (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html)
For a 90mm lens, f/22, 7ft to subject:

Subject distance 7 ft
Depth of field
Near limit 4.46 ft
Far limit 16.3 ft
Total 11.9 ft
In front of subject 2.5 ft (21%)
Behind subject 9.3 ft (79%)
Hyperfocal distance 12 ft
Circle of confusion 0.1 mm

I think that a 90mm would be a tight squeeze. Try it out in order to know for sure. I have a 75mm, and it would do nicely in there. You can pick up a 75mm for $300 to $700, depending on make and condition.

I agree with the others, your little flash wouldn't do very well. Look for a larger flash that you can use bare-bulb, or bounce it off the ceiling. Used flashes can be bought for a reasonable price.

[Frank Petronio]

A nice way to work is to have an assistant holding a flash head on a pole or collapsed light stand up and off from the camera, classic position. A small umbrella or large beauty dish. Like a 600w Monoblock or a Dynalite head and pack or something 500-1000 watts.

Portra 400 in Grafmatic. Crown or Technika with rangefinder set up for 90mm. If you can't use a rangefinder, pre focus and use a string measured to suit the correct distance. Remember 1/3 in front - 2/3 behind rule for depth of field.

65-75mm is for wimps, you'll just get clutter.

Go at a slow time, get in and pitch your idea, smile, give them a postcard of your work, get their name, bring in assistant from outside, have a $$$ battery professional strobe or already have an extension cord with the ground plug removed ready to hand to the clerk to plug in. Beg them to plug it in. $5 bills help.

Hit it with the flash meter, hang the shutter at 1/15th, tell XnameX to hold the heck still since they're so stoic anyways - and get 2-4 shots in two minutes and out.

Don't be black or you might get a shotgun in return.

[John NYC]

Honestly, if you can't do it the way Frank is saying, I don't know how you will practically with large format. I sometimes spend 20 minutes setting up my large format shots, and I don't think you'll be able to do that in these conditions?

I really like the idea of the project, but if you really want to do film, perhaps a Mamiya 7 II rangefinder with a 65mm lens would be the way to go. You could even use your existing flash and hold it a la the way Frank is saying. With that camera, you can get really nice sharp enlargements. With roll film, you are going to be able to get off half a dozen shots within a couple minutes and ensure you have a good expression/feel from the subject.

[Brian C. Miller]

Portra 400 in Grafmatic. Crown or Technika with rangefinder set up for 90mm. If you can't use a rangefinder, pre focus and use a string measured to suit the correct distance. Remember 1/3 in front - 2/3 behind rule for depth of field.

65-75mm is for wimps, you'll just get clutter.

Once upon a time I did gasoline pump repair, and I visited these places a lot. It's all clutter!! Take a look at Gursky's 99 cent (http://www.moma.org/interactives/exhibitions/2001/gursky/99cent_pop.html), and tell me there's no similarity. None at all. You can always crop out clutter, but you can't add it back in later. Show the clutter for what it is and where it is.

+1 on the slow times. Early in the morning is good. Also, the Portra 400 could be pushed one stop for better DOF.


Honestly, if you can't do it the way Frank is saying, I don't know how you will practically with large format. I sometimes spend 20 minutes setting up my large format shots, and I don't think you'll be able to do that in these conditions?

I can set up a straight shot in under five minutes, with a tripod. Look at his picture: straight on, eye level, and that's it. Preset the tripod height and camera focus, bring it in, unfold the legs, pop on the camera, flash once or twice for the light level, and then make the shot. No problem.

[John NYC]

I can set up a straight shot in under five minutes, with a tripod. Look at his picture: straight on, eye level, and that's it. Preset the tripod height and camera focus, bring it in, unfold the legs, pop on the camera, flash once or twice for the light level, and then make the shot. No problem.

Good advice. Maybe the OP (new to large format?) can practice some and pull it off like that.

If it were me doing it, I would still do medium format as I suggest above. I don't understand what advantages LF is going to provide here (unless the OP wants to print very large) but I do see many disadvantages to using LF compared to MF. Of course, if it is just a personal art project done for the sake of trying it, that might be reason enough to use LF.

[Frank Petronio]

Because with a view camera they'll give him a straight, deadpan WTF stare.

Wait... he got that with the dslr too!

I'd try to figure out something different than bunch of Indian and Korean guys staring at you with a cigarette wall in the background... it's too predictable, you can already picture it in your head so why bother? Find a tweak or something to interest us....

[DrTang]

ringflash?

[lenicolas]

Absolutely agree with Frank that convenience store guys looking dead pan into a camera isn't realy that exiting to watch.

I also wouldn't advice you to shoot LF.
f/22 and flash means you'll get absolutely no ambient light coming in... Witch makes for harsh light. even if you go bare bulb and bounce off of every wall and ceiling.

I'd stick to digital for that one, but maybe use a tripod and correct lens distortion for a more "LF look".
Digital looks better than film under artificial light inmho.

Also, using one flash and a decent aperture (f/4 or f/5.6) and letting the ambient work for you might be an idea... (make sure you gel your flash to match the color temp of the ambient light)

[bomzi]

Thanks for all the great responses!

Time is not as big of problem that it seems. When I was shooting these guys previously, I would end up spending a good 15-20 minutes in the store with them. Most were pretty ok with me taking my time. Quite frankly, most were concerned about whether I was an agent for INS or someone that might want to deport them!

I did consider shooting this with a 6x6 which is now sounding like a good idea. DOF should be less of a problem correct?

I just want to get out there an take some pictures!

Thanks again for all the great advice!

[Brian C. Miller]

Bomzi, here's the thing with DOF: it all depends on lens length and aperture. A 90mm lens on a LF camera has the same DOF as a 90mm lens on a MF camera, and a 90mm lens on a 35mm camera. The difference is the field of view, from wide angle to moderate telephoto.

A lens with a shorter focal length always has more DOF. It's just the way optics works.

If I were doing something like this, I would looks for stores with the most clutter. It's all about the image, after all. I would shoot it for the clutter in the store, and something like this is a great use of color. The place is a color riot! And yeah, print it big! I would pack in as much clutter as possible, so I would use my 75mm on 4x5, or my 35mm fish-eye with 6x7.

As Lenicolas pointed out, lighting is still going to be a problem. There won't be any ambient light, unless you're shooting in the daytime with lots of window light. You'll need to practice with bouncing light.

Instead of buying a whole new flash setup, how about renting something? Check around, and see what's available for portable flashes.

[John NYC]

Bomzi, here's the thing with DOF: it all depends on lens length and aperture. A 90mm lens on a LF camera has the same DOF as a 90mm lens on a MF camera, and a 90mm lens on a 35mm camera. The difference is the field of view, from wide angle to moderate telephoto.

Can you show some examples from DOF master of what you mean by this?

[E. von Hoegh]

Can you show some examples from DOF master of what you mean by this?

A 90mm lens is a 90mm lens. Period. BUT - different formats will use different circles of confusion, and you have to think of the reproduction ratio as well.

I don't know what "DOF master" is.:o

[atlcruiser]

Sounds like a cool project.


Have you considered flashbulbs? #25 press will give you f32 to f45 at 10' @ 400asa. You will need to test a bit but not at all hard to do and the smell good.

[John NYC]

A 90mm lens is a 90mm lens. Period. BUT - different formats will use different circles of confusion, and you have to think of the reproduction ratio as well.

I don't know what "DOF master" is.:o

It is the program (online and iPhone) that Brian used when he posted his examples for depth of field (DOF) http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

I know a 90mm lens is a 90mm lens. That's not what I am asking him to explain.

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

"Nothing new,under the sun".
You may wish to search 'Bruce Davidson -New York City series'.(he may have used 8x10 -others will opine).
Large format /tenement dwellers. Yep,4x5,direct or bounced flash,b&w.
A 90mm lens would be good,or a 65mm if you have one -you won't need movements.
Distortion is only a problem if you don't level the camera first.
If you can't set that up in a minute,practice until you can.

[bomzi]

thanks for the great feedback! i'll be sure to post some images soon.

randhir

[argos33]

Clearly you should go 8x10 with it!

Just kidding, if it were me I would go MF as well, I think you'll have more successful images that way. But honestly why not try both? You just got your camera and heck try one or two once you've gotten the shots with digital, MF, etc.

Plus I think a wide to very wide LF shot might look interesting, distortion and all. It is easy to speculate on here all day, but when it comes down to it you just have to go out and try it. And yes it might be difficult or impossible to get everything in the LF shot in focus, but does it have to be? Maybe try just focusing on the clerk? Might isolate him/her from all the junk and make for an interesting portrait. Every type of shot I've seen like this (and I've seen a lot) take this approach with trying to get every stick of gum in focus. Maybe try something different? Try a bunch of things and see what you like.

Evan

[premortho]

Speed Graphics with flash guns were made for this. f32 @ 12 feet with 200 spd film, #5, or #25 bulbs. Google up WeeGee and look at his stuff. Might give you a few ideas!!

[Henry Ambrose]

Bare bulb right on top of the camera.