Live and learn: Old 9x12 folder with w/a lens

[Dan Fromm]

I didn't think such things existed, but here's one:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/K-W-PATENT-ETUI-9X12-WEITWINKEL-ARISTOSTIGMAT-9-80-/220849219664?pt=DE_Alte_Kameras&hash=item336ba3a850

The lens seems to be original, not a retrofit. Nice and compact too. Who'd a thunk it?

Not mine and AFAIK I'm not acquainted with the seller.

[Sevo]

And a impressively retrofocal lens too, years before that principle got popular... ;-)

In other words, no, the lens does not seem to belong there - at least as presented, the camera does not look any shorter than the regular ones with 135mm Tessar and will be of little use with that lens. If any, it might be some half extension hack like on the pre bayonet mount Makinas, where a extra stop was added to arrest the front panel at a shorter extension - but it certainly is not presented in that state.

[domaz]

In other words, no, the lens does not seem to belong there - at least as presented, the camera does not look any shorter than the regular ones with 135mm Tessar and will be of little use with that lens. If any, it might be some half extension hack like on the pre bayonet mount Makinas, where a extra stop was added to arrest the front panel at a shorter extension - but it certainly is not presented in that state.

I think it could be real. As presented the bellows extension looks to be way to much for a 80mm lens but look where the indicator needle is on the distance scale. Imagine the camera with that needle on the infinity scale and it just could be about 80mm of extension. It also seems much thinner to me than other 9x12's I've seen- certainly thinner than the 135mm 9x12 I have.

[Tim Meisburger]

Well, its a Patent Etui, the thinnest folder ever made, but I have never seen one with an 80mm lens. I am sure that lens is not original, as when I scale the photo I get the infinity mark around 135mm.

[Dan Fromm]

Sevo, Tim, you could well be right about originality and I could well be wrong. It it is a retrofit, guess focus won't work, only focusing on the GG.

[Jim Galli]

Have to agree that somethin's rotten in denmark with this one. Looking at the short side of the bellows for a reference on the 90mm side of the glass compared to the distance out to the infinity mark.......It doesn't seem to add up.

[jcoldslabs]

As someone with a lot (my wife would say too many) 9x12 German folders I wonder if this isn't a mis-listed 6x9 camera. Hard to tell from looking at it, but the cameras, much like the 3x4 vs. the 4x5 Speed Graphics, scale up rather identically and unless there is a ruler or other item used for scale it can be hard to tell from the photos alone. I don't speak German but the listing doesn't appear to give any measurements.

Not owning any KW cameras myself, I could be wrong about this.

[Dan Fromm]

Jonathan, but then why a very wide angle lens?

I mean, I have a 100/6.3 Aristostigmat in barrel that should, if you believe the advertising claims, cover 5x7. It just isn't a good idea as a normal lens on my little 2x3 Speed Graphic.

[Tim Meisburger]

I don't think it is a mislabeled 6.5x9. Ian G uses these and would know, if he is around.

[Tim Meisburger]

Dang, this thread is dangerous. Now I'm surfing German ebay and I found ten Planfilmcassetten 6,5 x 9cm, AGFA. Just what I've been looking for, but unfortunately only for sale in the EU :(

[jcoldslabs]

Dan,

Just a guess, really. That is a bit wide/overkill for 6.5x9, but I have seen (and even bought on one occasion) mis-labeled 9x12 cameras. Don't worry, I'm over that obsession now. These days I buy 8x10 cameras!

I'd have to check to be sure but just about every German 9x12 camera I own came with either a 15cm, 13.5cm or, in one case, a 12cm lens. An 8cm lens would be a rarity but not impossible, I suppose.

The aperture scale on the shutter seems to go to f/6.3, so if the lens is marked f/9 then someone may have put new cells in the existing shutter. Although there was a f/6.3 version of this lens:

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00RbKf


Jonathan

EDIT: The German auction site is dangerous for those who collect these cameras. I had to force myself to stay away from there for fear of going broke. My wife collects Wedgwood china and most of the good stuff, understandably, is in the UK. Often she pays more in shipping than she does for the merchandise.

[IanG]

The body shape of the smaller Patent Etui is slightly different in the proportions, so while the lenght & width are reduced compared to the 9x12 version the camera is still about the same thickness when folded.

This looks too thick to be a 9x12 see this one:

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/etui03_sm.jpg

Here's the same camera compared to a German Rodenstock 9x12 camera

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/etui01_sm.jpg

As has been pointed out already it would be extremely difficult to use a WA lens on a 9x12 Patent Etui as there's no way to position the front standard which has to lock to the front of the focus rail to function. Shortest lens used was a 135mm, the other option was a 150mm.

I've seen them mis labelled before on ebay.

Ian

[IanG]

The aperture scale on the shutter seems to go to f/6.3, so if the lens is marked f/9 then someone may have put new cells in the existing shutter. Although there was a f/6.3 version of this lens:

http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00RbKf


The Meyer Gorlitz Weitweinkel Aristostigmat 8cm f/6.3 was as you say originally an f9 lens at some point both versions were available after the introduction of the f6.3 version in the 1930's. In the UK A.O.Roth the Hugo Meyer distributors sold the lens in a Compur shutter. This WA lens was used on some 9x12 cameras which had interchangeable lenses.

There was a 9x12 Edelweiss camera listed for sale on this forum a couple of years ago with a 135mm Standard Tessar and the Meyeyer WA.

However definitely not an original lens you'd fit to a 9x12 Patent Etui let alone a 6.5x9.

One major problem with Patent Etui's is that many modern lenses just won't fit and allow the body to close up. I've searched for 3 or 4 years for a post WWII coated lens that will fit to use on my second 9x12. The camera folds so thin even a 150mm G Claron's to big, at last I think I've found a lens that will probably work, a 150mm f6.3 MC Geronar, the samllest 150mm made (after WWII).

This maybe why the previous owner of the Patent Etui discussed here fitted the 80mm Meyer lens.

Having looked again at my second 9x12 I'm totally convinced the listed camera is a 6.5x9, the bulge for the lens is slight on the 9x12 the one here is pronounced.

Ian