Rise on 8x10 Camera Question

[tgtaylor]

Is it possible to introduce rise on an 8x10 camera and have the complete image appear on the GG and have the bellows intrude on the negative? Assume no problems with the back or holder.

Thomas

[Mark Woods]

Not sure what you mean. If you see the whole image, the bellows wouldn't be intruding into the neg area. If your GG is accurate, it will be wysiwyg. I always double check by looking at the lens and seeing if there is a problem with the bellows or coverage.

[evan clarke]

It's a bellows vignette..you can't see it in the gg but it will cut part of the neg off on the bottom..

[BradS]

It's a bellows vignette..you can't see it in the gg but it will cut part of the neg off on the bottom..

Agree. Have had this happen to me several times. It is always a surprise because you do not see it until after the film has been processed!

[C.T. Greene]

'Is it possible to introduce rise on an 8x10 camera and have the complete image appear on the GG and have the bellows intrude on the negative? Assume no problems with the back or holder.'?
Defining movement . . 'How could the bellows intrude into the film area without appearing in the GG? . . . If the GG is sufificantly less than the 100% of the film area.

[tgtaylor]

That's it: Bellows Vignette. It's happened to me twice so far with both times in the portrait mode. Is there any way to tell before you trip the shutter is its going to vignette?

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

Defining movement . . 'How could the bellows intrude into the film area without appearing in the GG? . . . If the GG is sufificantly less than the 100% of the film area.

No issues with the GG: Toyo 8x10 GG on a Toyo 8x10 back.

Curiously I can actuially see a little vignette at the top with maximun rise in portrait mode but zero vignette in landscape mode. But I never shot with max rise in landscape yet.

Thomas

[BradS]

That's it: Bellows Vignette. It's happened to me twice so far with both times in the portrait mode. Is there any way to tell before you trip the shutter is its going to vignette?

Thomas

I do not know of any....but I too have only had it happen when the back is vertical - in portrait orientation.

[don12x20]

Yes it is possible to see a "complete image" yet have bellows or lens clipping the amount of light. I've seen it several times.

Simple check for this -- leave the holder out, close down the lens to the desired Fstop, and look through the lens. Can you see each of the 4 corners of the gg? and the four edges?
If so -- no lens vingetting, and NO BELLOWS PINCHING into the image.

Works far better for me than looking through the clipped corners of the ground glass.

Particularly when you are using formats bigger than 8x10....

[tgtaylor]

I took the lensboard off and, trying to imaging my eye was positioned at the end of the rear lens element tried to determine the maximum rise while lifting the bellows up with my hand. In portrait mode is looks like ~120mm with support placed under the bellows. It looks clear in landscape mode with no support. This kind of makes sense as the dimemsions are 10 inches in portrait and 8 inches in landscape (top to bottom).

Thomas

[tgtaylor]

Yes it is possible to see a "complete image" yet have bellows or lens clipping the amount of light. I've seen it several times.

Simple check for this -- leave the holder out, close down the lens to the desired Fstop, and look through the lens. Can you see each of the 4 corners of the gg? and the four edges?
If so -- no lens vingetting, and NO BELLOWS PINCHING into the image.

Works far better for me than looking through the clipped corners of the ground glass.

Particularly when you are using formats bigger than 8x10....

Wow, thanks a ton Don! I was starting to get gun shy in portrait orientation.

Thomas

[John Kasaian]

A few months ago I was shoot St Joseph's Church in Mariposa, working on a tiny patch of lawn with a 4' drop onto the parking lot right behind where i was set up. I had the front rise cranked as high as the 'dorff could go. I supported the bellows with a cardboard "tent" and all worked out well---no converging lines or vignette---almost as if I'd found Ansel's tripod holes!

[tgtaylor]

I shot that church with a 4x5 both the outside and inside.

I going to try Don's method tomorrow and see if I can get maximum front rise in both portrait and landscape orientation by supporting the bellows from underneath.

Thomas

[BradS]

...Simple check for this -- leave the holder out, close down the lens to the desired Fstop, and look through the lens. Can you see each of the 4 corners of the gg? and the four edges? If so -- no lens vignetting, and NO BELLOWS PINCHING into the image.....

Thanks for this!

[tgtaylor]

I wonder if this problem is due to the make of the bellows itself? My bellows, although new, is not a factory Toyo bellows. It's made of some type of black waterproof fabric and my thinking is that it is one of those that are currently advertised on Ebay. My other two monorails are 4x5 Toyo's with the original factory bellows and I've have never had bellows sag using them, just lack of lens coverage using maximum rise with a 75mm Grandagon 4.5 on the Robos. Also none of the 4x5 bellows exhibit sag but then they are much smaller dimensions than the 8x10.

Thomas