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Nguss
24-Jan-2012, 14:37
Sorry for asking the same old question a million newbies have asked before but I have searched through the old threads for guidance and just wanted to check that I am approaching this the right way.

I have been stocking up on expired / close to expired slide and black and white sheet film (as I have been able to get some quite good deals) and freezing it. I am now looking to thaw some of it out. From looking at the old threads am I right in thinking that

1. I get the film out the freezer (always a good starting point)
2. I put it in a freezer bag / ziplock bag (with possibly some silica gel packets to absorb moisture)
3. I leave it out overnight at room temperature or put it in the fridge
4. It should then be o.k to use after 7-8 hours?
5. Once thawed / the box has been opened I can not / should not refreeze it

If I am not missing anything out above, does this generally mean that it is not recommended to get one or two sheets out at a time and load them into a film holder to thaw and then putting the rest back in the freezer before they defrost?

Thanks, and apologies for the lame questions!

Kevin Crisp
24-Jan-2012, 14:55
It should be in a zip-lock bag when it goes in the freezer. Then take it out of the freezer and leave it on the counter still in the bag you froze it in. Leave it that way for several hours. Then open it.

If the film is still in the box, in the original sealed factory air-tight bag (not all are packaged this way, such as Ilford) then you can just take the box out and leave it for a few hours before opening it.

If you froze a partially used box in a non-air tight package, this is not ideal, but I don't see what else you can do about it now.

domaz
25-Jan-2012, 09:34
What's wrong with keeping a frozen box in the freezer taking it out and immediately loading film holders it in a dry changing bag? I've done this quite a few times and never had condensation marks appear. My theory is since everything is enclosed (changing bag, film holder) and dry it's difficult for condensation to occur. Maybe I've been lucky but so far so good.

E. von Hoegh
25-Jan-2012, 09:50
What's wrong with keeping a frozen box in the freezer taking it out and immediately loading film holders it in a dry changing bag? I've done this quite a few times and never had condensation marks appear. My theory is since everything is enclosed (changing bag, film holder) and dry it's difficult for condensation to occur. Maybe I've been lucky but so far so good.

When you end up with 20 or so sheets of 8x10 ruined, you'll see what's wrong. Why take the chance?

BetterSense
25-Jan-2012, 09:58
I also have taken bare film boxes out of the freezer and loaded film directly into film holders. I did not have a problem, but your mileage may vary.

Jim Noel
25-Jan-2012, 11:00
What's wrong with keeping a frozen box in the freezer taking it out and immediately loading film holders it in a dry changing bag? I've done this quite a few times and never had condensation marks appear. My theory is since everything is enclosed (changing bag, film holder) and dry it's difficult for condensation to occur. Maybe I've been lucky but so far so good.

You have been lucky. The condensation comes about when the cold, dry film is exposed to warmer moisture laden air. The moisture will always condense on the colder surface. You may get by 20 times, but on the 21st when you make the photograph of your life it is ruined by condensation.

Nguss
25-Jan-2012, 11:40
Thanks for that, from reading the above I am probably better off not risking it and will just defrost the lot at once. Thanks again.

Kevin M Bourque
25-Jan-2012, 11:59
Film doesn't freeze (change state) the way water does, at least at any reasonable temperature. Your only real worry is condensation. Since film doesn't have much mass, it warms up in a hurry. A few minutes in the holder ought to do it (and yes I've done this).

E. von Hoegh
25-Jan-2012, 12:06
Film doesn't freeze (change state) the way water does, at least at any reasonable temperature. Your only real worry is condensation. Since film doesn't have much mass, it warms up in a hurry. A few minutes in the holder ought to do it (and yes I've done this). And what about the rest of the film in the package? You're advising a relative newcomer to risk ruining expensive film when he doesn't have to, and your logic is specious.

Drew Wiley
25-Jan-2012, 12:11
Sometimes you'll end up with little tiny water droplets condensing on the film, sometimes the film will buckle in the holder from a temp change during the exposure.
That's the minor scenario. Ever had a lens fog up from a sudden temp change? Film
is no different. Glad you gamblers out there have plenty of money for extra film.

domaz
25-Jan-2012, 12:30
And what about the rest of the film in the package? You're advising a relative newcomer to risk ruining expensive film when he doesn't have to, and your logic is specious.

If you leave the rest of the film in it's plastic bag and just quick take out one sheet at a time and close the plastic bag then the amount of air you are exposing it to is very small. If your changing bag is bone dry (I always make sure of this before I load frozen film) then the amount of humid air is tiny. Sure it's a risk but it's about the same level of risk as having a light leak develop in my changing tent IMO (low but possible).

E. von Hoegh
25-Jan-2012, 12:36
If you leave the rest of the film in it's plastic bag and just quick take out one sheet at a time and close the plastic bag then the amount of air you are exposing it to is very small. If your changing bag is bone dry (I always make sure of this before I load frozen film) then the amount of humid air is tiny. Sure it's a risk but it's about the same level of risk as having a light leak develop in my changing tent IMO (low but possible).

My changing bag is a darkroom.
A couple guys have survived jumping off the Brooklyn bridge, should I jump? No, didn't think so. I'm glad you can afford to risk throwing away film, and possibly irreplaceable images.

Kevin M Bourque
25-Jan-2012, 13:54
"...and your logic is specious."

I'm curious to know what part of my argument is invalid. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As I said, I've never had a problem putting cold film in a holder and waiting a little while. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

E. von Hoegh
25-Jan-2012, 14:00
You guys are too funny.

And Kevin, it's your entire argument that is specious.

Vaughn
25-Jan-2012, 14:09
Since the factors that can cause problems vary -- specifically, film temperature, room temperature and Relative Humidity -- one must be careful on giving advise based on owns own personal experience since the those factors might be significantly different for someone else.

The RH of my house can run from 50% to the upper 70%'s. However someone in Sante Fe in the winter might be in the teens or lower percentage...and it would hard to suck any moisture out of the air then!

Vaughn

Drew Wiley
25-Jan-2012, 14:53
I had the habit of cushioning and insulating both my camera and film boxes by wrapping
them up in my goosedown coat inside my backpack. Sometimes the last day of a trip
I'd pack the whole thing up early AM at 12000 ft in the high country, then down the
trail I'd go, right down into the desert. I could be 105, but when I pulled my camera or
film out, it was still completely cold. Everything would instantly fog, even six or eight
hours after it was packed. Goosedown is a great warm to keep a soda cold too! But
funny how every film mfg out there tells you to let things acclimate for at least three
hours before opening. Hmmm ... are they full of bull too??

Nathan Potter
25-Jan-2012, 15:21
"...and your logic is specious."

I'm curious to know what part of my argument is invalid. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As I said, I've never had a problem putting cold film in a holder and waiting a little while. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

I don't think Kevin is relating an argument to us but just an experience. We draw our own conclusions based on his experience and what others have said. IMHO the propensity for condensation on film depends on the dewpoint of the ambient air, and of course, the actual temperature of the film when exposed to the air. I double bag partially opened film in polypro bags (from ULine) and just let them thaw overnite. No problems yet with that approach. :)

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Andrew O'Neill
25-Jan-2012, 16:16
I don't think Kevin is relating an argument to us but just an experience. We draw our own conclusions based on his experience and what others have said.

I agree.

So, to be on the safe side, keep your film in ziplock bags when in the freezer and let them sit for a couple of hours to get used to surrounding temperature when you take them out. It has a lot to do with your room's RH. I found that out the hard way when I lived in Japan... very very humid...very very bad. Here, much drier, but I still wouldn't take the chance. This is based on my experience.

Drew Wiley
25-Jan-2012, 19:43
Please reread my last anecdote. I was getting condensation in desert afternoons where the humidity was probably under 5% simply due to the sudden temperature
change. You might argue that there was more moisture inside the camera or inside
the holders - possibly, but the higher mtn air itself is generally very dry too. So I
learned to wait a few minutes before making any exposures. And that's a best-case
scenario. Last month I actually had a couple of sheets pop during a long exposure
in the rain due to humidity or temp change. It happens. I prefer adhesive holders for
critical work, but generally use them only for color. But I have had condensation form on the film a few times and have the resulting dev film basically look like little
water droplets contact printed on it, which was essentially the real case. And around
here at least, the microclimates can change dramatically within a few miles or less. I'm not trying to deny instances when people have gotten away breaking the conventional recommendations, or ascibe it merely to luck; but change the working
parameters a bit, and you might not be so lucky next time!

Brian Ellis
25-Jan-2012, 21:41
I think you're making too much of a simple thing. Take it out of the freezer, let it sit for a while (nothing like overnight, an hour or so at room temperature will be plenty), then load it and use it. I've often used 120 film straight out of the freezer without any problem. I don't think I've done that with sheet film though.

cowanw
26-Jan-2012, 06:14
Drew's observations are interesting. If you are in the Arctic and shoot film outdoors. Then come indoors, Glasses, cameras, everything will fog.
why not the film inside the holders? anything to do about it? or just doesn't happen in real life?

E. von Hoegh
26-Jan-2012, 09:11
Drew's observations are interesting. If you are in the Arctic and shoot film outdoors. Then come indoors, Glasses, cameras, everything will fog.
why not the film inside the holders? anything to do about it? or just doesn't happen in real life?

This is why experienced / careful folks bag things before bringing them in from frigid temperatures.

Vaughn
26-Jan-2012, 09:20
This is why experienced / careful folks bag things before bringing them in from frigid temperatures.

Visiting my sister in Spokane in the winter, I just left my camera gear out in the unheated garage rather than transfer them from 18F to 72F. I did bring in the light meter due to the battery -- but I had kept in my pocket while outside to keep it a bit warmer.

E. von Hoegh
26-Jan-2012, 09:29
Visiting my sister in Spokane in the winter, I just left my camera gear out in the unheated garage rather than transfer them from 18F to 72F. I did bring in the light meter due to the battery -- but I had kept in my pocket while outside to keep it a bit warmer.

I used to leave my rifle on the enclosed but unheated camp porch, rather than bring it into camp.

It's interesting the debate this subject has started. I thought it was a no brainer. When I was working semi-professionally, I'd have been canned so fast my butt would have broken the sound barrier on the way out the door if I'd loaded film that hadn't been thawed at least overnight. I guess some take it seriously, and others don't.

Vaughn
26-Jan-2012, 09:45
When I was working semi-professionally, I'd have been canned so fast my butt would have broken the sound barrier on the way out the door if I'd loaded film that hadn't been thawed at least overnight. I guess some take it seriously, and others don't.

It would be along the same lines of using buying expired film off of ebay for a wedding. The film might be fine, but what pro would risk it? Okay, this would a bit more extreme, but still an unacceptable risk.

E. von Hoegh
26-Jan-2012, 09:53
It would be along the same lines of using buying expired film off of ebay for a wedding. The film might be fine, but what pro would risk it? Okay, this would a bit more extreme, but still an unacceptable risk.

I think it is indicative of the posters' approach. Some folks take things for granted, go on assumptions, get away with it, and think that's it. Then when things go wrong, they're starting a thread asking for help because they haven't a clue.

Other folks assume that "constants aren't and variables won't", take no chances, and when something goes wrong usually have no trouble finding the problem.

Robert Tilden
26-Jan-2012, 09:55
I don't know that much about how fast film degrades at room temperature- I'd say pretty slowly- but seems to me that you take the film out of the freezer the night before, load your holders the next day, and leave the film thawed until you won't need it in the near future (say a month or more), then freeze it again. My understanding is that it's not the freezing/thawing that's the problem but rather the condensation, so planning ahead a little takes care of the problem, no?

Vaughn
26-Jan-2012, 10:00
Re-freezing has its own problems -- any moisture in the air could end up in the opened package and could form ice crystals inside the packaging -- which when thawed could cause moisture damage. It happens to food, which of course has more moisture to begin with.

Generally, re-freezing open packs of film is not recommended.

E. von Hoegh
26-Jan-2012, 12:03
I don't know that much about how fast film degrades at room temperature- I'd say pretty slowly- but seems to me that you take the film out of the freezer the night before, load your holders the next day, and leave the film thawed until you won't need it in the near future (say a month or more), then freeze it again. My understanding is that it's not the freezing/thawing that's the problem but rather the condensation, so planning ahead a little takes care of the problem, no?

Refreezing film is a bad idea. Ice crystals form in the emulsion.. I just thaw the film when I know I'll be using it soon, if not immediately. Sealing it up with re-activated silicagel packets and popping it in the fridge has worked well for me, never any problems doing that.
Freezing is for long term storage, anyway. Didn't Kodak recommend keeping pro film at 55f or below?

jermaineB
26-Jan-2012, 12:12
I'm always curious about the whole freezing of film and it's advantages or disadvantages if any. I personally have all sorts of expired film that hasn't been stored in a freezer like my Type 55 and opened 59 that I keep in a dark closet in my office and a box of Fp 100b45 in my bedroom closet including 3 rolls of Agfa scala 200 120 film. All over a few years expired and I've had them for about a year. On the other hand I do have a 100ft roll of 16mm Kodachrome and 35mm scala 200 in the freezer. I don't have a spare freezer so my wife wouldn't like all my stash in there. However I am getting ready to move 6 hours away so the frozen stuff has to come out. So will it affect anything to put those frozen films back in the freezer at my new place?
I also plan to by 8x10 film which I don't even have an 8x10 camera yet. Won't be cold stored but I'm not afraid of experimentation.

Nguss
26-Jan-2012, 12:18
This has been really interesting to read and I am glad that I asked, as I would definitely prefer not to risk it if I don't have to. It is interesting to see how the approaches vary between individuals as well. It is obviously not as straightforward as I thought it was but at least I have a better chance of not ruining the first lot I get out of the freezer than I did yesterday.

E. von Hoegh
26-Jan-2012, 12:29
This has been really interesting to read and I am glad that I asked, as I would definitely prefer not to risk it if I don't have to. It is interesting to see how the approaches vary between individuals as well. It is obviously not as straightforward as I thought it was but at least I have a better chance of not ruining the first lot I get out of the freezer than I did yesterday.

There used to be things called Kodak Dataguides that answered unequivocally all these questions.

You pretty much had it right the first time, anyway.:)

Nguss
26-Jan-2012, 12:47
Thanks, I will hold you to that when I mess it all up.:)

E. von Hoegh
26-Jan-2012, 12:49
Thanks, I will hold you to that when I mess it all up.:)

Great. Remind me to write a disclaimer and use it as my signature.;)

Drew Wiley
26-Jan-2012, 16:56
When I had a house in the mtn, if I planned on doing any winter or wet season shooting the next day, I'd always leave the entire pack outdoors the nite before, even
if I had to wrap it in plastic to keep it dry. Or if I built a snow cave in the backcountry,
same thing. It was very important. But I guess in today's economy, I should take sneak
into everyone's darkroom with one of those plug-in steamers, and take out a hedge
fund betting against everyone else's emulsions. Maybe that would support my own film addiction.

John Olsen
26-Jan-2012, 17:45
LF is hardly an impulse activity. Take your time. Savor the hours of thawing film so you don't get condensation, while you imagine the wonderful images you will capture. And yes, rebag the box and stick it back in the freezer.