Need advice regarding Jobo CPP2 and C-41 developing: something's wrong..

[MWitmann]

Hi all,

recently i've bought with a friend a Jobo CPP2, in order to gain our independency regarding the C-41 color development.

We've managed to start the process with good results, developing around 100 4x5 sheets, but after the scan we saw a problem on some negatives.

Inspecting the emulsion side of the negatives, we saw some white spots, in some case having the shape of a splash. Consulting the Tetenal C41 manual we identified the problem as "milky spots", probably resulted from not enough bleaching.

Before the batch of 10 sheets in which we reported this problem, in the same day, we've developed other two rounds of 10 sheets each, whitout reporting any problem, using exactly the same chemicals (fresh) and steps.

We had in the Jobo expert drum 8 portra 400 and 2 ektar, and the portra were the most affected by this problem. After seeing the spots we washed the negatives for several minutes, and after that we performed another bleach (as suggested in the tetenal manual).

The result was better, but the problem didn't disappeared...so please, any advice regarding this problem will be greatly appreciated.

I attach an image (test copy), inverted in order to easly recongnize the problem ( upper section, sky zone), and another image, in normal form and inverted (img 071-1 / 071).

I also want to ask you some information about the rinse after the stabilizator step; i observed that the satbilizator lets a lot of dirt on the negatives, almost ruining them; the same problem appear even if we use a washing agent after the satbilizator...

So, anybody rinse after the stabilizator? How do you manage to have clean negatives?

Many thanks

[Robert Ley]

Is your Expert Drum absolutely dry when you load the film? Are you doing a pre-wash?

It looks like the negs may have gotten wet before processing or you may not be using enough chemistry. It is very hard to see what you are talking about on my monitor.

Is this something that has happened on every run or just this one run of film?

What Tetenal kit are you using? They have a Developer and Blix kit and one that has a separate bleach and fix.

I think that you need to give us as much info on your processing as possible.

I have been using Fuji Hunt C-41 chemistry with a great deal of success and no problems for the past four years.

[tgtaylor]

You rinse the film before the stablizer step not after. The stablizer contains a wetting agent which rinsing would remove and may also impare the dye stability.

Use Kodak chemistry.

Thomas

[Jan Normandale]

I have been using Fuji Hunt C-41 chemistry with a great deal of success and no problems for the past four years.

Robert, where are you sourcing the Fuji Hunt kit? I've only been able to locate the Unicolor kits

[mircea nicolae]

M Wittman and I are using:


no prewash,

330 ml of chems / 10 sheets, as specified in the Jobo 3010 manual

this happened only to this run of film, and mostly damaged the 4 portra 400, and almost not at all the 2 ektar 100 sheets

we were doing hand rotation as the motor is dead (cog was unscrewed beforehand), using the unit as a tempering bath - not for the first time

the tetenal kit 5 L / is a blix formula, not bleach + fix


Thank you for any advice on this.

[Robert Ley]

I really like the Fuji-Hunt C-41 and RA-4 chemistry. It is easy to mix and will keep for quite a while if stored with no air in the container. I use liter and half liter plastic water and seltzer bottles and squeeze out all the air and it will last a long time (2-3months).

My source for the chemicals is: http://www.minilab.com/index.asp

You should be able to get everything that you need from these folks.

[Bruce Watson]

]the tetenal kit 5 L / is a blix formula, not bleach + fix

As has been discussed endlessly on APUG Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry forum (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/), blix is not the way to go. Separate bleach and fix steps work much better. Search around and read the threads to learn more about the "why" of it.

The Photograhers' Formulary has a 1 liter c-41 kit (http://stores.photoformulary.com/Detail.bok?no=965) (Kodak chemistry) with separate bleach and fix steps.

[MWitmann]

You rinse the film before the stablizer step not after. The stablizer contains a wetting agent which rinsing would remove and may also impare the dye stability.

Use Kodak chemistry.

Thomas

i know that the rinse has to be done before the stabilization, but we though that would be necessary also after it, for removing all the froth that remained on the negatives.

Only after (today) we discovered that the froth was caused by the use of the stabilizer in the CPP2 lift, and that is better to dunk the negatives in a tray of stabilizer, in order to avoid the froth caused by the tank rotation.

I panicked a bit, because i really didn't want to find out after few months that the negatives are compromised, so i stabilized them once again, this time avoiding the froth problem.

Hope that now everything will be "safe".


Returing to the main problem i want to ask you if there is so much difference between the Tetenal color kit C41 and the Kodak products. Will the separation of the bleach and fix resolve the problem?

Many thanks

[Jan Pedersen]

In addition to Formulary's kit, Freestyle sell these http://www.freestylephoto.biz/66015-Rollei-Compard-Digibase-C-41-Midi-Color-Processing-Kit-20-roll?cat_id=1001

I have used a few of these kit's and they produce nice and clean negatives.
Rumors are that they are Fuji chems.

[MWitmann]

In addition to Formulary's kit, Freestyle sell these http://www.freestylephoto.biz/66015-Rollei-Compard-Digibase-C-41-Midi-Color-Processing-Kit-20-roll?cat_id=1001

I have used a few of these kit's and they produce nice and clean negatives.
Rumors are that they are Fuji chems.

Thank you Jan

[gary mulder]

The cause of the problem is possible residual stabilizer. Never ever let the stabilizer come in contact with the jobo or the drum. It will be very hard to remove. A ordinary rinse will not be enough. If the problem persists try a cleaner for artificial teeth.

[MWitmann]

The cause of the problem is possible residual stabilizer. Never ever let the stabilizer come in contact with the jobo or the drum. It will be very hard to remove. A ordinary rinse will not be enough. If the problem persists try a cleaner for artificial teeth.

Thx for the reply Gary;

the milky spots&splashes seems to be connected to the bleach step (considering the indication of the colorkit manual).

The other rounds of developing were done using the stabilizer in the jobo drum, but rinseing after that (getting it wrong).

Now i'm pretty sure that:

1- using the stabilizer with the jobo drum isn't ok, because the drum motion causes froth

2- risening after the stabilizing process is wrong; that's why today i've dunked again the negatives in a tray with a stabilizer solution

The next rounds will be done using the stabilizer separately, in order to see if any improvment will spotted. Otherwise we wil have to identify the other possible cause of the problem...

Anyway, stabilizing the negatives in the tray gave very good results, after rescanning some of them i wasn't able to spot problems of any kind, a totally different story from the jobo+stabilizer experience..

[photobymike]

The cause of the problem is possible residual stabilizer. Never ever let the stabilizer come in contact with the jobo or the drum. It will be very hard to remove. A ordinary rinse will not be enough. If the problem persists try a cleaner for artificial teeth.

yepper been there and done that.... take the film off the holders and use the stabilizer in a tray!!!!! Your chemicals are foaming inside the tank. This is from the wetting agent in the Tetenal Stabilizer. The only way i could remove this from the drums and film holders is very diluted!!! pool acid and lots and lots of hot rinse. Be very cautious how you handle the sulfuric acid (pool acid) !!!! it will burn you and do not mix with other chemicals like cleaners!!! Once i cleaned the drums no more foaming, no more spots. Shout this from the roof tops. Photoflo same problem!!!

http://www.mikepic.com

[Dave Langendonk]

I'm seeing some signs of uneven development in the negative images. It looks like vertical bands of varying density probably caused by uneven filling and rotation of the drum. Is that what you're seeing? It's hard to tell with the online scans. Make sure the drum is absolutely level as it rotates and that you put adequate chemistry in for 10 sheets. I use more than the minimum amount. Rotations should be even and consistent.

[MWitmann]

I'm seeing some signs of uneven development in the negative images. It looks like vertical bands of varying density probably caused by uneven filling and rotation of the drum. Is that what you're seeing? It's hard to tell with the online scans. Make sure the drum is absolutely level as it rotates and that you put adequate chemistry in for 10 sheets. I use more than the minimum amount. Rotations should be even and consistent.

yes Dave, that's the problem, the vertical bands of varying density. Considering that we've performed the development by hand rotation of the drum (due to the sudden death of the motor...) it's very possible that the result is connected to this. If i add also the stabilizer used in the jobo and not in the tray, the froth and so on....probably i could trace some conclusions...

Thank you

[Dave Langendonk]

yes Dave, that's the problem, the vertical bands of varying density. Considering that we've performed the development by hand rotation of the drum (due to the sudden death of the motor...) it's very possible that the result is connected to this. If i add also the stabilizer used in the jobo and not in the tray, the froth and so on....probably i could trace some conclusions...

Thank you

I have experienced this problem with 8x10 in a 3005 expert drum but not for 4x5. C-41 develops pretty fast at 100 degrees and if the solution doesn't cover the entire negative in the first revolution or two of the drum you will get this kind of uneven development. The varying density bands are caused by chemistry not reaching the entire negative before the drum is rotated and then part of the negative is out of solution while part is developing. In these first few rotations, part of the negative has developer and part doesn't. When the drum rotates around again, more of the negative gets covered. Again make sure that the drum is absolutely level when you pour in the chemistry. A little more than the minimum volume doesn't hurt either.

You don't see these effects with B&W since the temps are lower and the developing action is slower with longer times.

I don't think the stabilizer has anything to do with this. I do agree with the other posts that you do the stabilizer in a tray outside of the Expert drum for all the reasons cited. I also use distilled water for this step.

Hope this helps!

[gary mulder]

Quote from the Fuji c-41 documentation.
"Avoid any contamination of the tank and spiral with Stabiliser."
Let we presume Fuji knows there stuff.

[Dave Langendonk]

Quote from the Fuji c-41 documentation.
"Avoid any contamination of the tank and spiral with Stabiliser."
Let we presume Fuji knows there stuff.

I don't debate the fact that you keep stabilizer off the tank and reels. The same holds true for photoflow and B&W. Jobo says the same in their instructions. But that is not the cause of vertical bands of uneven development the OP confirmed was the problem he was trying to solve. I have experienced exactly this issue on 8x10 in a 3005 drum and I have never had stabilizer or photoflow on my drums.

[gary mulder]

the milky spots&splashes

I find it hard to believe milky spots, that decrease with a secondary bleach, are caused by uneven develpment.

[Dave Langendonk]

I find it hard to believe milky spots, that decrease with a secondary bleach, are caused by uneven develpment.

I'm not referring to the milky spots. There may have been multiple problems here. I'm talking about the vertical bands of varying density. See MWitmann's reply below. It's hard to see on my monitor but if you look closely on the sky areas of both negative images you can see them. I can actually see them better when I look at the monitor from an angle rather than head on. Especially looking from above. Your monitor may be different that's why I asked the OP if that's the problem he was referring to which he confirmed. I'm sensitive to this problem because I struggled with it for a long time.

I'm just trying to offer the OP some ideas to check out, not get into an argument with you over who's right. So let's just let it go at that.


yes Dave, that's the problem, the vertical bands of varying density. Considering that we've performed the development by hand rotation of the drum (due to the sudden death of the motor...) it's very possible that the result is connected to this. If i add also the stabilizer used in the jobo and not in the tray, the froth and so on....probably i could trace some conclusions...

Thank you