existing daylight processing equpiment

[johnielvis]

I am DISsatisfied with what's out there.

jobo is defunct and I dont' think ever had a sheet film system for ulf sizes....

I want one that is low tech and provides good results for larger sheets. smaller sheets too, but the larger sheets seem to have always been a problem.

labs are closing and I am NOT gonna buy a dip and dunk machine for my apartment....no way

I am NOT gonna invest any any jobo, if I can find it, since there are no parts and it can't be properly maintained.

so--anybody else dis satisfied with the current state of affairs?

anybody currently ACTIVELY working on a solution?

[Bob Salomon]

For what size film?

[rdenney]

There are always trays:).

I used to process C41 in a Unicolor drum, which can take up to 8x10. With the right print drum, you can go bigger than that, I suppose, though I don't know about removing the halation layer (I was processing roll film). The chemicals were in beakers sitting in a thermostatically controlled temperature bath. C41 (at least at that time--I've not paid attention to this in decades) required a temperature of 100 degrees F, plus or minus a quarter degree. I never had a failure, and I was processing 20 rolls a week on Sunday nights for a local pro. It was simple enough, but still required meticulous lab skills.

I won't do it again simply because it's too cookbook and boring. I'm happy to send my color stuff to a lab.

Rick "who could never dream of affording an automated processor in those days" Denney

[Pawlowski6132]

Unicolor. I can process 35mm to 20x24.

[3e8]

I've just found plans for a set of daylight safe BTZS tubes (http://www.photosmith.ca/Library/PVC%20Tube%20Based%20Development%20Tank%20System%20for%204x5%20or%20Paper%20Processing%2001.pdf). I am planning on making some soon, but I've never used the real BTZS tubes, so we'll see how it works out.

[ROL]

I am DISsatisfied with what's out there...

anybody currently ACTIVELY working on a solution?

You better get used to finding and creating solutions for yourself, if you choose to use traditional film media.

Tray processing couldn't be simpler, effective, inexpensive and low-tech.



so--anybody else dis satisfied with the current state of affairs?

I assume you're referring to your bitchin' and moanin'.

[jeroldharter]

Depending on your film size, the low tech options would be a drum on a motor base (e.g. A Jobo Drum on a Beseler motor base), a drum spun in a water bath (e.g. BTZS tubes), a slosher tray (e.g. A 4x5 or 8x10 slosher from Photographers Formulary), or a simple tray.

I have heard of some people using a slot processor only (e.g. A Nova from 8x10 to 16x20) but i think that would be too much of a nuisance for me.

[johnielvis]

looks like nobody pays attention to content---

what I said is that I"m dissatisfied with what's out there--it doesn't give me the results I want....so please don't post what you use...I've used them all...I don't like what is out there...

if you're satisfied, fine...I am not

currently this is for 11x14 processing--black and white reversal process including re-exposure...also for 8x10

what I've tried is tray, unicolor, chromega, beseller drums, cibachrome drums, pvc pipes,

all of the above modified in various ways to get better results....

I've found great success, but want to go further...what is out there does not work for me....you like jobo..great, keep that to yourself unless your not satisfied with it...THAT's the people I want to hear from....

like chromega, tray...great...I don't care what you use...if your's satisfied, you're not who I want to talk to here...

I'm looking for other people who are not satisfied with the results or the problems, leaks...whatever.....who wants something better?

I want to get together with these people and see if we can come up with something better....

SO...who is NOT SATISFIED? anybody have any ideas to IMPROVE things...

alternatively....if I come up with a better method, who would be interested in it...if everyone's satisfied with things, then I'll just keep my better ideas to myself.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I want...low tech and provides good results for larger sheets. smaller sheets too, but the larger sheets seem to have always been a problem...I already pointed you to a system via the last link in this post:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=834581&postcount=21

[bob carnie]

There is a long thread I started on APUG about this problem . I too am dissatisfied and have designed a semi automatic system that is going to use all my current Jopo reels and expert tanks.
I am on the last Alt jobo I probably will ever use again and when it starts Kakking I will build the unit . Not cheap , parts alone and labour will run me about 5k but since I plan to process well into the future its an investment I and a few of my clients are willing to make.

[Jeff Dexheimer]

Snippy! you post on a public forum, you take what you get.

[Tom J McDonald]

Agomatic!

[rdenney]

looks like nobody pays attention to content---

Hey, man, there's got to be something to pay attention to. Your desire to reject all current solutions (which you've tried without detailing their deficiencies) and create a new solution wasn't exactly obvious in your first post. It more sounded like a rant.

I wish you all the best.

Rick "outta here" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

Well there was a much better option out there, but I opened my big mouth and when
a couple of them actually showed up for sale I got badly outbid. I wanted a spare.
Fabricating plastic is fairly simple, and building temp control and a gearmotor drive isn't
exactly a high-tech nightmare. So might as well start doing you're homework instead
of griping and waiting for something which is never going to be mass produced again.

[Lachlan 717]

looks like nobody pays attention to content---



Maybe----……--nobody--.-.-.---reads…---..--- in.--.- Morse----Code…. -.. .. -.-. -.- .... . .- -..

[johnielvis]

bob of hp marketing--new design, great news, but I don't like the jobo drum designs either--they are not foolproof and are lacking since other people have problems with them too.

the sal santamaria guy---jobo is not to my liking no matter how much you like it I don't, I don't care about jobo and jobo derivatives and I don't care that you are the bestest jobo operator in the whole wide world and everything you do comes out perfect to my standards.....even though I've never inspected any of your work...somehow you just know....pillock

OK--I'll just have to do it myself if nobody else cares....make my own solution and keep it to me then....looks like everybody that tells me to use creative solutions uses absolutely no creativity but the same old junk and is satisfied with crap.

please only respond if you have any ideas on NEW designs or a very DIFFERENT way of doing things...I've got a couple ideas, but it looks like if I get together with some other people like me it'll just be us---no point in developing it for sale according to the level of interest here---we can have our own club.

actually, yes...now that sounds nice---a club of perfection being the goal...to find a nice low tech method that uses a minimum of chemistry and allows daylight processing without scratching and splotching of large sheets.....and does this very simply, and repeatably--can be done by someone with very little experience...that's the goal...so then I'd be able to train people to develop my film according to my process and save me some time...and help the economy a bit too...put someone to work...yes.

[Drew Wiley]

Lot of different kinds of drum processors were made over the years. Jobo was popular
from a retail standpoint. Widely distributed and good quality control. But far more
sophisticated units were made by others, as well as simpler but fully reliable other mfg.
Some of the fancier units can be a pain to maintain if there are all kinds of pumps and
solid state controls. Sometimes these can be bypassed. You need to start looking at
used lab supply sources and not just EBay, and hopefully have some basic shop skills.
It's not rocket science, but it is helpful to have some thermoplastic fabrication experience. This might indeed constitute a nice little cottage industry for someone
willing to invest in a bit of industrial drain pipe. But there are so many specific differences in what we all want ... and nobody will have the financial incentive to come
up with a whole list of goods like Jobo did. But even on this forum there are a number
of threads about homemade drums.

[jeroldharter]

I suspect that your tone, or more precisely rudeness, does not invite a lot of help.

[winterclock]

Think something like a dishwasher to spray the chemicals on?

[johnielvis]

yeah...I know....I'm hoping if I make something I can get it manufactured....however, I don't want something technologically advanced--simpler is better---the simple tubes simply don't work reliably--so that's not the solution...the jobs are way too much precision and even they don't work without troubles---so them I want to avoid.....I'm looking for a simple genius solution...like maybe some sort of centrifuge design that will use the centrifugal forces to pump the liquid...but even that has too much mechanization for me....I want the olde country solution that hasn't been found or HAS been found but it's been lost over the years.....

in my opinion, the more intricate, the worse it is...there has to be a proper operating regime for something that is simple--I'll find it..if anybody is gonna find it's gonna be me since I'm the only one looking...or maybe just a simple addition or subtraction....or even motion....maybe instead of rotary processing, use the drums in a back forth action with very S L O W....rotations....so it mimics a tray at the smaller scale, you know...that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about...GENIUS ideas like that

[johnielvis]

Think something like a dishwasher to spray the chemicals on?

YES...I had that in mind too.....some sort of spray processing on one side only...OR---somehow shield the back of the film....and remove the back layer after all else is done...you can use regular tubes or trays then.


maybe as simple as a light tight ziplock with valves on it....I'm making one right now...a ziplock with ilford black plastic bags around it

[Jeff Dexheimer]

maybe instead of rotary processing, use the drums in a back forth action with very S L O W....rotations....so it mimics a tray at the smaller scale, you know...that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about...GENIUS ideas like that This is what I do with my Jobo drum. I develop in daylight by hand. Its simple and effective. Thanks for the genius compliment!

[johnielvis]

WHOA!!!!! me and you dude!.....that was something I was gonna try out after I try rolling it slower with a variable speed drive...but if that works....well....you know...I can develop like that and then use the roller base for the rest of the process!!!!! yeah...maybe that will keep enough chems on the bottom to provide the pressure to get in behind the sheets!!!!

THANKS for letting me know (dexmeister)....THAT's what i"m talking about!

[Drew Wiley]

Just how damn simple do you want it? Just go buy a short section of black ABS drainpipe of sufficient diameter and a couple of caps = brand new drum for about ten bucks. Then just give it a gentle push back and forth the length of your sink. It will work. Or if you need a fancier idea get a black hamster ball and strap it to some kid's skateboard. I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[Sal Santamaura]

I suspect that your tone, or more precisely rudeness, does not invite a lot of help.And yet I still try to help. Masochistic much? :)


...the sal santamaria guy---jobo is not to my liking no matter how much you like it I don't, I don't care about jobo and jobo derivatives...Hey, if you're going to refer to me ("the dude trolling me," as you described me on APUG), at least spell the name correctly. :D

You obviously care about Jobo; you don't like it. I've simply been posting to correct misinformation about Jobo equipment that you have posted.


I already pointed you to a system via the last link in this post:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=834581&postcount=21Apparently, you didn't or won't follow that path. So I'll spell it out for you explicitly.

The last link in that post is this one:

http://www.alistairinglis.com/new_page_1.htm

It's not Jobo. It's not rotary of any kind. It's a commercially available, daylight, gas-burst system from Alistair Inglis. Might be worth your time to investigate.

You're welcome. :)

[Drew Wiley]

I got it! Dump out your laundry detergent and replace it with Dektol or 76 powder.
Use prerinse and the gentle cycle.

[Oren Grad]

I got it! Dump out your laundry detergent and replace it with Dektol or 76 powder.
Use prerinse and the gentle cycle.

It's important to expose for your specific brand and model of washer. Those new-fangled high-efficiency ones use less D-76 powder and have a longer cycle with less frequent agitation. Designed for compensating development, I guess.

[johnielvis]

Just how damn simple do you want it? Just go buy a short section of black ABS drainpipe of sufficient diameter and a couple of caps = brand new drum for about ten bucks. Then just give it a gentle push back and forth the length of your sink. It will work. Or if you need a fancier idea get a black hamster ball and strap it to some kid's skateboard. I don't see what all the fuss is about.

the fuss is about marks on the base side of the film....Ive tried a straight tube and it don't work---neighter doe putting in screens---and the back forth I think will still result in rib marks now come to think of it...but we'll see...I think I 've found a way to keep the film floated on the top of the liquid.

the thing is repeatability...idiot-proofing it...the rocking back forth in a tube is on the right track....but still will likely have problems on second thought...I must completely eliminate all contact of the film back with the tube.....

so now I'm back to taping the film to maybe a plastic bag to protect the base side during processing...

if film was manufactured like plexiglass where you can peel off the anti halation layer, that would solve everyones problems...provide a scratch proof back that's impenetrable to chemicals....then you peel it off when procession is done....like the polaroid/fujirood film with the back that can be stripped off.

the big deal/fuss is marks on the base side which I find intolerable since my final product is the film...ad you are looking at the base side at a positive....so these marks, as I have said many times before, are much more apparent than to someone making prints where they don't' matter---if you make a print, they don't show up....

in short---"whats all the fuss":

if you have to ask, you don't understand....so this is not the place for you.

I"m thinking the back forth in the tube is the the way to start--but maybe just have to make a "daylight tray"...but then the relative motion of the film will scrape the try botto m and cause scratches...may as well make it perfect from the get-go...the film must be held fast...maybe some kind of tray that has ridges on the sides...so the film bows in the middle like a shallowt arch of st louis....then the film is held fastchems can get behind...you can agitate the whole thing without worrying about the base side hitting the bottom of the tray....

but....taping plastic to the backs....and using sloppy tube methods...then stripping off the plastic for a post-soak to get rid o the anti-halation layer---that's good...but how to tape down the plastic in the dark....sheesh....gotta make some kind of jig...BUT...build it ONCE and use it forever!!!!!!.....yeah...then I can use existing stuff AND totally eliminate any damage to the back due to the barrier....

now I need to find a tape that is impervious to dichromate bleach....maybe some kind of strong clamp/frame arrangement/protective septum thing....

early morning

[johnielvis]

tank systems are not suitable for home apartment processing---I want nothing that takes huge amounts of chems--want to do one-shot processing...small chem amounts...no replenishment--my process can't do replenishment...need super strong fresh first developer every time...forget tanks...want small....if I wanted to hire a lab I'd do that---I don't want to do that

[Bob Salomon]

tank systems are not suitable for home apartment processing---I want nothing that takes huge amounts of chems--want to do one-shot processing...small chem amounts...no replenishment--my process can't do replenishment...need super strong fresh first developer every time...forget tanks...want small....if I wanted to hire a lab I'd do that---I don't want to do that

An Agnicolor processor, if you can still find one, from the mid 60s.

[Oren Grad]

An Agnicolor processor, if you can still find one, from the mid 60s.

Or maybe not:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=9123

[Drew Wiley]

Drums are nice because they generally require very little chemistry and are easy to
use per consistent agitation. I never like Jobo drums per se because they filled and
drained too slowly, and the internal ribbing is a bit sharp. I would rather have a smooth drum. If this is a gluable thermoplastic like ABS or noryl, what you can do is
purchase long half-round strips of acrylic and glue this end. Very smooth, and won't
scratch. Or sometimes I apply little hemispherical half-rounds of pure silicone self-
adhesive cabinet bumpers (not the cheap vinyl kind). These work best in trays or
print washer walls, but could be used in a drum too if you curl the film a bit tighter
when inserting it, rather than just sliding it in. Does this idea help? It has certainly
worked for me.

[rdenney]

So, you want a daylight process that can be used in a small bathroom with one-shot chemistry, with ultra-large-format film, if I'm putting together all your threads correctly.

You desire minimal machinery, presumably to allow putting it away and to avoid future maintenance issues.

And you want to do that using extremely temperature-sensitive color processes that require a reversal exposure.

All that might lead to a tough combination of requirements!

I'm currently rebuilding a black-and-white negative-processing capability, using a Jobo 2551 (not I'm not recommending it to you--back away from the keyboard--I have a different point), an old Chromega roller, a bar-size sink on a counter-top that provides no more than six inches of flat surface on each side of the small, single-basin sink, and an old and freshly rebuilt (to last another 40 years) Kodak thermostatically controlled faucet mounted on the wall next to the sink. I can also temporarily use the top of my film freezer, which sits next to the sink. I will load the tank using a changing tent/room.

This tank loads the film on reels instead of inside a tube, and that should solve any remaining problem of providing access by the chemicals to the back of the film. But it does require a liter of chemistry, though that liter is needed as much to provide sufficient chemical capacity (for 12 sheets in two 2509n reels) as it is to cover the film during rotation. You don't want the tank or the reels for a variety of reasons that perhaps diverge from the experience of others, but you are not interested in understanding and solving that divergence. Fine. But I think I understand what you are trying to do.

(Really, the reason daylight tanks were invented in the first place was to deal with precisely these requirements, and I'm somewhat at a loss to understand why a plastic tube on a roller with a motor that will probably work fine for a century constitutes unduly complex machinery or an excessive footprint, but whatever.)

This calls to mind how I processed prints larger than my trays in darkrooms of yore. I would hold the print by each end, let it sage into a U, submerge the bottom of the U into chemistry, and then move each hand up and down in a rocking motion to allow the whole surface to be submerged regularly. Many process large prints in long, narrow trays using that technique. A bit of foam on the bottom of the tray would prevent damage on those occasions when the film (or your arms) sag a bit too much.

The next time you are at Home Depot, look at trays design for wallpaper hangers. Wallpaper has to be dipped in water using that same exact technique.

The tricky bit is getting that into the dark. I bet I could design a bullet-proof machine to do that, but it might be easier just to fashion handles for the edges of the film (clamps designed for hanging newspapers and artwork by their edges come to mind), and then devote your energies to making your bathroom really dark. I processed sheet film in total darkness for years, using hangers in open deep tanks, which would not fulfill your requirements because of chemistry volume, but which suggests to me that working in total darkness is a skill that really needs only practice.

Since you could only process one sheet at a time, it would be a very slow process, but that's the gig. The reversal exposure would be easy.

The tricky bit will be temperature control. I would find a process that can run at a room temperature that you can maintain, and then keep your chemicals and trays in a bath that is thermostatically controlled. The 100-degree F process I used back in the day for color won't do--the film will spend too much time in open air and the chemical will cool quickly unless you risk heating the room to the point where you'll trade one set of a problems for the challenge of not dripping sweat on your film. I have not at all kept up with color chemistry, but I'm assuming most stuff runs at a reasonable room temperature these days.

I think the plastic-bag idea will present many more opportunities to scratch negatives than a tank will. Plastic bags are not softer than wet emulsions, or the inevitable dust particles that will be floating in the chemistry and trapped between the plastic and the film.

ANY room can be made dark--all you need is some opaque black foam core boards, cut to fit tightly into the window openings.

Rick "thinking it's up to you to experiment given that your need is not universal" Denney

[Bob Salomon]

Or maybe not:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=9123

As I was the rep for them I tend to agree with you but I don't know why I said mid 60s. They were from the mid 70s.

[johnielvis]

WHOA...who said anything about color or temp control....the room can control the temperature....

black and white reversal

it HAS to be some kind of tube from an efficiency point of view---or gravity tray...but a tube IS a tray that you don't use the whole tray all the time...the main problem is the back of the film sticking and not getting proper flow back there..

the baggies are not practical...messy....very difficult to work with.....found that out mock-using one....

so I'm back to tubes...the main thing is being able to get that back treated as good as the front....has anyone made an extra-long spiral reel type thing?....that can go in a tube and fill to 1/2 reel height and rotate that....that may work if I can maybe take a 110/16mm reel and put it on a shaft....that is---TWO 110 reels....I"m gonna see if I can mock it up without trashing my 110 reels...then "wind" the sheets like very wide roll film....sort of "push it in"...HEY..I got a LARGE plastic ansco reel...TWO of them...in my storage come to thing of it!!!! larger diameter...hey hey....this may be something here...but i only have 2 so can only use for 2 sheets....I wanna preload more than 2 sheets...they still sell patterson plastic I think....maybe go to helix tomorrow and see what they have....top/bottom on long shaft and push the film in there....OH...can then put in a LONG stainless tube maybe for multi-reels....THIS is more what I"m after..."reel" developing...gives full access to both sides of the film BUT...if turned on the side and rotary processed--will be very frugal with the chemistry...mucho more than a regular tank would be.

[johnielvis]

OH...that "U in trough" method...there's something to that.. too....but that's 1 at a time like you say...I want to see if I can get whatever I"m doing on a roller base if possible...very simply that way... and very "hands off"...I don't wanna be touching the dichromate bleach/acid

[Leigh]

...they are not foolproof...
Methinks herein lies the definition of the problem.

The term "foolproof" refers to the user, not to the equipment.

Self-identification being rather obvious.

- Leigh

[johnielvis]

well...the 110 reels are out....forgot about left and right spirals....flip one around and you get opposite spiral....I'd have to cut them apart...then how to mount with the wires poking out....what a mess...now I gotta wait for this huge snowstorm to stop so I can go to my storage for the plastic ansco reels...man....oh well...need a rest anyways

[Kirk Gittings]

Methinks herein lies the definition of the problem.

The term "foolproof" refers to the user, not to the equipment.

- Leigh

:) You made my day.....

[johnielvis]

actually foolproof is a bad word to use....SIMPLE is what I mean...not complicated...not dependant on many things for success....redundancy....stuff like that....like you have to intentionally try to make it fail instead of inadvertently

[Leigh]

Well, you said that trays were too complicated.

I can think of nothing simpler except perhaps a flat piece of plastic and a pitcher.

- Leigh

[johnielvis]

dude....trays give scratches...and they're not suited to daylight and multi-sheet...they can be made scratch proof perhaps by fixing the film like I stated before....but still then....will take much more chems than a tube...and a tube IS a tray with a curved bottom...and a way to fix the film...

[Leigh]

dude...

You're the one who suggested using trays (post #21).

If you're not happy with the current options why don't you invent a solution rather than crying to the masses, asking them to do your work for you?


dude....trays give scratches...
Trays do not cause scratches. People cause scratches.
I develop all my 8x10 film in trays, usually four sheets at a time, and have never scratched a single sheet.

- Leigh

[Mark Stahlke]

If I'm reading between the dots correctly, your issue is with marks on the back of the film caused by the film contacting the processing equipment (tray, tube, whatever).

What about making some sort of plastic frame that fits around the edges of the film to keep both sides of the film off the equipment. I'm imagining something that looks vaguely like a film holder with no front or back, just the edges. If the plastic frame is flexible, the film-in-frame could be processed in tubes or flat in trays.

[johnielvis]

If I'm reading between the dots correctly, your issue is with marks on the back of the film caused by the film contacting the processing equipment (tray, tube, whatever).

What about making some sort of plastic frame that fits around the edges of the film to keep both sides of the film off the equipment. I'm imagining something that looks vaguely like a film holder with no front or back, just the edges. If the plastic frame is flexible, the film-in-frame could be processed in tubes or flat in trays.

yes...I've thought of that too!!!! got one made!!!! it works!!!!! it is best for no scratches....but still not perfect....still get the uneven marks (no scratches though...this solves the scratches)...and I think I've found out why!!!!

OK guys--after re-looking at the flow on the inside I"ve seen that the roller base turns so fast that the "trough" section on the bottom doesn't keep enough liquid on the bottom to keep the film sufficiently submerged to keep liquid behind larger sheets of film---in order to get liquid back there for big sheets, you need a certain amount of depth of submersion to get the pressure for the liquid to push itself behind the film...now...I can fix this by putting in a LOT of chems....this is wasteful though....this is why I can get best results uising the motor base with a pre-soak with like DOUBLE the quantities of liquid....and even that doesn't work too good...putting even more liquid in makes the tube very heavy, hard to turn...may even start leaking....and then the quantity of liquid starts really pushing the film around too!!!

now...when the tube is at rest....there's plenty of liquid down there to get the job done---so that dude that rocks the tube back and forth...and slowly turns...that works...sort of like a curved tray........SO.....I 've determined that spinning the drum slow enough to keep the liquid in the trough on the bottom--to keep the film submerged will provide the results I'm looking for.....

THEREFORE...I am now purchasing one of these speed controllers and am going to (today) hand roll the tube very slowly for the development step to ensure full submersion...if the results are nice and perfect like I think, then I'm set for automated perfection when the speed control comes in....

here's the item:

http://www.smarthome.com/30317/Suncourt-VS200-Plug-In-Variable-Speed-Fan-Controller/p.aspx

In other words, folks...the problem all along seems to be the fast rotational speed of the standard motor bases---this is likely why hand processors get nice results and the machine users sometimes have problems---the drums spin so fast that the film never ever gets full submersion....it turns out that FULL submersion is needed to dissolve them dyes in the back in a uniform manner---at regular speeds the "spray" action in the drum makes the splotches and sometimes allows the film to stick....

We'll see....

[johnielvis]

dude...

You're the one who suggested using trays (post #21).

If you're not happy with the current options why don't you invent a solution rather than crying to the masses, asking them to do your work for you?


Trays do not cause scratches. People cause scratches.
I develop all my 8x10 film in trays, usually four sheets at a time, and have never scratched a single sheet.

- Leigh


I'm looking for a soution and looking for ideas..that's why..I'm not crying, mr complainer,and you're not helping...you have no ideas, just criticism

OH...no...anything that touches the film WILL cause a scratch...it's a physical law, dude....you know...action, forces, etc.....people too cause scratches, but I really doubt you keep film floating at all times in a try..it scrapes the bottom at one time or another, and when it does, scratcheroo, dude....even if it's slight, it's there---don't matter...I think I got it licked now....I'll know for sure in a week hopefully when I get my variable speed control and process enough to be confident

[johnielvis]

If I'm reading between the dots correctly, your issue is with marks on the back of the film caused by the film contacting the processing equipment (tray, tube, whatever).

What about making some sort of plastic frame that fits around the edges of the film to keep both sides of the film off the equipment. I'm imagining something that looks vaguely like a film holder with no front or back, just the edges. If the plastic frame is flexible, the film-in-frame could be processed in tubes or flat in trays.

whups...got carried away with the speed control solution

yes--I have made a film holder that works very well HOWEVER it didn't solve the problem as full submersion is needed....that's why I REALLY started losing my mind....till I got a look inside at it working...that was my using roll film reels idea turned into....same thing sort of...something to hold the film.....

the problem is that to get enough of a grip on the film, I end up cutting off some of my image area---I get a bigger edge rebate because of the amount of film needed to hold it, you know?....well....not THAT big...but......anyways--it does work -- the frames sure do prevent scratches!!!! but...that's only PART of it

however I think the main thing is just keeping a LIQUID barrier between the fillm and the drum...so...the slower speed with sufficient liquid height to provide pressure is likely the way to go....

OH....only need the slow speed--high pressure during the DEVELOPMENT step to get that BACK LAYER DISSOLVED EVENLY....THAT is the main problem....full submersion just like a tray provides---this is why tray has no such problems...FULL submersion of the BACK surface!!!!...once it's developed I'll be able to roll it at regular speed since the back dyes/layers will already be dissolved, see!!!! hey hey!

IF it works...IF it works...I'll find out hand rolling soon....weekend chores first....and the snow...and the snow

[johnielvis]

new discovery about the inside of the tube and rotation

the film actually contributes to the problem of not keeping chemistry in the trough...particularly if I use the film holder/barrier----

if the tube has no film, some of the water walks up the tube....but you put film in there with a spacer/filmholder to keep the filmi away from the tank and you've just TRIPLED the surface are AND provided a thin channel for laminar wall adhesiion to make the film/tube annular channel like a super pump....it REALLY picks up the water.....

SEE...you gotta SEE what's going on....I'm even now almost certain that the slower rotation speed will cure all of my ills.....with tube developing that is...

it really is surprising to see the dynamics.....

you know...this is why that "sine wave" agitation is totally useless then...if the liquid is being spun around anyways, the sine wave to produce gravity pressure gradients doesn't work since the liquid doesn't stay in the bottom.....unless you got a LOT of liquid in there...and then you may as well use a tank.

SEE...DESIGN is one thing...what it actually does after it's built is another....I'll bet the designers of these things only tested them in action and never seen what was going on inside....how the hell did they callculate the rotational speed, huh? even if it was based on keeping liquid in the trough, they didn't count on the film tripling them forces and then further acting like pump.....

as a side note...I took a large bottle and guess what...the liquid stayed on the bottom in the trough....smooth bottle, I guarantee, was their "model"....you throw film in there and some ridges and such and that's no smoothe bottle anymore!!!!!

HA...all this time and nobody's even seen what's ACTUALLY going on in there

[johnielvis]

WHOA...new idea!!!!!

the ridges in the tubes that are meant to hold the sheets around the circumference....IF I cut out sections of them, THEN the leading edge of the film can act like a SCOOP and the plunging when it comes down...then the momentum of the water (or inertia) will force the liquid behind the film--between the film and drum...right now, these ridges act as a barrier to the liquid....take away sections of the barrier and BAM...HUGE improvement in getting liquid back there.........cut out sections on the other side and there's a drain!!!!!

man...this is gonna be just like tray processing now if it works!

hey hey...now there's part 2 of getting it perfect.....all I gotta do is cut out some sections of the separators and roll it slower and I'm in business with this double whammy (well....gotta test gotta test....first just the slow speed and see where I get"

[Coelus]

I spend my days improving processes and machinery for a very large oilfield services firm. I've done it for several different industries. One of my close friends is a CE who designs control loops. Give us $150k and about a year and I will hand deliver a custom built fully automated processor to you that will work with any commercially available film size you specify. It's not that no one wants to build a new processor. It's that there needs to be proper motivation.

BTW the price would have dropped to $50k if you were able to clearly state your problems and limitations with current machines, what would specify a successful design (and 'simple' & 'foolproof' are not design specifications), and you were able to communicate with others in a way that didn't seem rude and condescending. The extra $100k is for us putting up with someone who appears may turn into a customerzilla.

[bob carnie]

my laugh for the day, thanks

I spend my days improving processes and machinery for a very large oilfield services firm. I've done it for several different industries. One of my close friends is a CE who designs control loops. Give us $150k and about a year and I will hand deliver a custom built fully automated processor to you that will work with any commercially available film size you specify. It's not that no one wants to build a new processor. It's that there needs to be proper motivation.

BTW the price would have dropped to $50k if you were able to clearly state your problems and limitations with current machines, what would specify a successful design (and 'simple' & 'foolproof' are not design specifications), and you were able to communicate with others in a way that didn't seem rude and condescending. The extra $100k is for us putting up with someone who appears may turn into a customerzilla.

[johnielvis]

well...I see the thanks for solving a problem that's been plaguing people since the invention of film are starting to pour right int...

to all of you...you're welcome...use my ideas (and you will) with my blessing....that's why I'm here--to help people, including myself.....and i was successful...

I'm sure some of the haters will hate even further because I am successful....I like that part....they hate you even more if you succeed...

feels good...pour it on fellas....like accolades to me!!!!