Kodak files for Bankruptcy Protection

[Jim Andrada]

From the Wall Street Journal

Eastman Kodak filed for bankruptcy protection after the film pioneer failed to raise fresh cash to fund a long-sputtering turnaround.


The 131-year-old company struggled for decades to cope with the emergence of competitors in its film business and the rise of digital technology. But its final pivot -- an attempt to transform itself into a company selling printers -- proved too costly amid declining film sales and expensive obligations to its retirees.

[vinny]

say it ain't so!

[Jim Andrada]

OK - It ain't so. Happy?

Unfortunately it IS so!

[vinny]

Yeah. Just placed another order and I'm sad.

[Curt]

Nothing lasts forever, they'll either evolve or disappear.

[David Higgs]

Can anyone explain waht this means in legal terms? Do Kodak keep operating 'normally' as this process continues. Like many people I'm wondering how long I can continue to buy Portra and Ektar as there is no real equivalent in C41 terms.

[Tom J McDonald]

www.kodaktransforms.com

[Jim Andrada]

Generally in Chapter 11 filings the company operates normally as it's a reorganization process as opposed to a liquidation process (Chapter 7 I believe)

But maybe the right answer is "Who Knows?" depends on whether they try to sell pieces of the business or close down unprofitable pieces of the business or whether they can get financing to carry them through the bankruptcy process. American Airlines filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy recently and they have every intention of continuing operations.

[Roger Cole]

Can anyone explain waht this means in legal terms? Do Kodak keep operating 'normally' as this process continues. Like many people I'm wondering how long I can continue to buy Portra and Ektar as there is no real equivalent in C41 terms.


Generally in Chapter 11 filings the company operates normally as it's a reorganization process as opposed to a liquidation process (Chapter 7 I believe)

But maybe the right answer is "Who Knows?" depends on whether they try to sell pieces of the business or close down unprofitable pieces of the business or whether they can get financing to carry them through the bankruptcy process. American Airlines filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy recently and they have every intention of continuing operations.

Yep. For right now it means nothing to consumers of their products - business as usual. In a way, it's a necessary step if they're to rescue things. It could turn out good for film, or bad.

Hostess, maker of Twinkies among other snack cakes and such, filed Chapter 11 in 2004, emerged from bankruptcy in 2009, and just filed again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostess_Brands

So it's really just wait and see, buy what you need while you can.

[jonreid]

So, after reading all the Kodak threads here and other places over the last month or two I don't really have a firm grasp on whether or not the film division is profitable and likely to be kept, because it is, or not in which case it will be dumped.

A lot of talk about how much film Hollywood buys, but someone said that's a different process and I gather a very very small percentage of it is B+W.

A guy who runs a lab here in Sydney Australia said this "Kodak film division is in of Kodak's few areas still turning it a solid profit, mainly from its motion film." and most importantly for me "Motion film stocks are made in black and white and tri-x is a hugely popular motion film stock tri-x is one if Kodak's safest films."

Jon

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Some useful user info here regarding continuation or "Flow of Goods and Services"
http://investor.kodak.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=115911&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1650196&highlight

[rdenney]

So, after reading all the Kodak threads here and other places over the last month or two I don't really have a firm grasp on whether or not the film division is profitable and likely to be kept, because it is, or not in which case it will be dumped.

The film division was indeed profitable. It just wasn't profitable enough to overcome their other losses.

But there is also the question of how long it can remain profitable. The revenues have declined significantly every year for the last decade, and only aggressive cost-cutting has kept that group profitable. But their production model was built around high volume sales, and they may not be able to keep their coating plant alive if the volume shrinks much more. And it will shrink as more theaters and moviemakers switch to digital. Kodak had estimated that they needed to keep their film production capability in place until 2018. So far, they've predicted doom pretty accurately, they just haven't seen a way to forestall it.

We as a community need to get over the fact that we are a fringe activity, and our fringe may be the last holdout for film. And it probably won't be enough to sustain color film in general and color negative film in particular. I just don't see young'uns in the line to have a big pile of prints made at the Costco photo desk any more. The generation that values physical shapshots is getting older. Those who value significant photographic prints are a small piece of that pie, and those who make them a sliver of that.

The Economist article was interesting. They were so worried about their efforts to dominate small markets "not moving the hands" that they gave them all up. That's like saying that they'd rather be big than successful, but to my thinking a company can do a lot with a lot of different small markets. The auto industry has been trying that out, making a range of specialty cars rather than a few generic models, and they figured out a way to do that profitably, or at least as profitably as possible in the current situation. It seems like Kodak was always more interested in making millions of Instamatics than thousands of Master Views.

Will Kodak build a coating production capability that can scale to projected market levels efficiently, and offer their product at a sustainable price? I don't even see them articulating a vision of doing so.

But I'm coming to a better appreciation of the situation. Their overall obligations are so vast that they have to focus on remaining big, and not just on remaining profitable. Their pensioners depend on it--their stockholders are already out in the cold. We don't care what they do as long as they keep making the (small quantities of big) film (we say) we want.

Rick "seeing a failure of ideas, not expertise" Denney

[Roger Cole]

I'm using this as an incentive to really evaluate and perhaps narrow my artistic focus (pardon the pun.) Black and white was always my first love and biggest interest. I got into doing color darkroom work in high school mainly because everyone seemed to think it was so difficult, which meant I wanted to prove I could, plus that's what family and friends wanted to see. I continued it later because I did make some photographs that are better in color or only really work in color. But I never really enjoyed it as much as black and white.

After more than a decade away from any kind of photography other than some digital snapshooting I got back into it. I've been shooting some color and sending it out, but keep saying I'll get back into color printing (and film processing more as time savings than anything.) But now I'm wondering if I really want to do that. I can keep shooting color occasionally and sending it out, but concentrate my main artistic work and all my darkroom work on black and white. I hear and sympatjoze with those complaining of possibly losing Kodak black and white material, but it just wouldn't affect me that badly. I use Tri-X but could use HP5+ almost as well. I use TMY-2 in 4x5 but again HP5+ would work, and I bet Delta 400 will come back in sheets if TMY-2 disappears. I use T-Max RS developer but have been meaning to try DD-X anyway because I hear so much good stuff about it.

I may lay in a stock of 35mm and 120 Tri-X but if they keep making it until 2018 (wishful thinking, maybe) all it takes is a Craig's list freezer and buying a few bricks now and then to stock another decade of that. I might want to give HC-110 a whirl while I can but it's cheap and reportedly lasts nearly forever so, again, no problem.

It's color that matters when it comes to Kodak. I'm just re-evaluating whether color matters much at all to me.

[ImSoNegative]

I saw this news first thing this morning when i opend my computer, George rolled over in his grave im sure

[Brian Ellis]

So, after reading all the Kodak threads here and other places over the last month or two I don't really have a firm grasp on whether or not the film division is profitable and likely to be kept, because it is, or not in which case it will be dumped. . . . Jon

I've posted quite a bit of information here about the revenues and profits of the Film/Entertainment Group, most recently in a message on January 12 of this year.

[Drew Wiley]

Put it this way, Roger ... I've got about five years worth of color film in the freezer,
both tranny and neg ... that's capable of a lot of quality shots. And just how many of
these are going to be worthy of printing? If the whole food chain of C41 or E6 collapses
somewhere along the line (not likely soon), I'll still have the pleasure of having taken
the shots, and it's highly probably a lot of them will still be readily printable. RA4 and
C-papers appear to be solid. Sad to see Ciba going away, but for my more masochistic
leanings, I've still got dye transfer supplies on hand, and there are other folks who will
inevitably gravitate to color carbon. We lose favorite things from time to time. I wish
old-school Seagull, Portiga, and Brilliant graded papers were still around. But the VC
papers we've got today are simply superb too. And being basically esthetically schizophrenic, I can't seem to give up either color or black and white. Think I'll stock
some more odds n' ends of chemistry like HC-11O and TMRS dev, but otherwise, one's
just gotta roll with the punches until we see how all this resolves itself one way or the
other.

[Hugo Zhang]

I have just tried to order some Tri-x 57 films and checked B&H and Badger Graphics and they are gone.

[Jim Andrada]

A few weeks ago I ordered some 8 x 10 Tri-X from Adorama and it showed out of stock, but a few days ago four boxes showed p on my doorstep so there must still be film in the pipelines. Had the same issue when I ordered 100 sheets in 5 x 7 a few months back. Eventually I dgot it.

[Sal Santamaura]

I have just tried to order some Tri-x 57 films and checked B&H and Badger Graphics and they are gone.Since there's no more room for it in my refrigerator/freezer (1,926 320TXP sheets present and accounted for), I'll point you to Adorama, which still has some. :)

[Hugo Zhang]

Since there's no more room for it in my refrigerator/freezer (1,926 320TXP sheets present and accounted for), I'll point you to Adorama, which still has some. :)

Thanks Sal! I have ordered a few boxes. :)

[Jan Pedersen]

(1,926 320TXP sheets present and accounted for)
That should last you a few weeks :D

[jonreid]

Freestyle has some 5x7 TXP

[Sal Santamaura]

That should last you a few weeks :DIt, along with the many thousands of sheets of Azo I stockpiled, are my "doomsday" supply. Many, many years from now, if even Ilford joins Kodak in the history books, I'll still be shooting and printing.

Until then, I'm a happy Ilford camper, greatly enjoying 4x5, 5x7, whole plate, 8x10 and even a little 11x14 FP4 Plus / HP5 Plus, as well as MGWT FB. :D

[Tom J McDonald]

B&H has 5x7 Portra 50 sheet boxes.

[Dave Aharonian]

These days the only kodak film I use is Tri-X. The rest is Ilford. But I gotta say - if it goes, its going to be hard to replace Tri-X...... Lets hope some vestige of Kodak remains to produce its most popular film.

[John NYC]

I have to say even if Kodak keeps making E100G (which is my color film of choice 80 percent of the time right now on 8x10), I am going to stop buying it. Why? At current B&H prices...

Kodak E100G: 10 sheets costs about $140
Fuji Provia: 20 sheets costs about $170

I like Provia, and in fact, it has way better reciprocity than E100G. So, after the three boxes in my fridge are gone, I'm done.

I will still be buying Portra though, as there is no alternative practically right now in 8x10 in the U.S.

[Drew Wiley]

I seriously doubt that TriX is even close to being Kodak's most popular film.

[Roger Cole]

I seriously doubt that TriX is even close to being Kodak's most popular film.

Well no, that would probably be one of the consumer C-41 films, and Pro color I expect outsells their B&W.

But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tri-X is Kodak's best selling black and white film, especially if you combine both 35mm/120 TXT and LF TXP as "Tri-X." As wonderful as TMX/TMY are, they are different and lots of folks (including me) love Tri-X.

[jonreid]

Just on PDN:
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2140216/-film-division-profitable-kodak

[Sal Santamaura]

Just on PDN:
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2140216/-film-division-profitable-kodakThe most telling Kodak quote in that article:

"...we know that there are hundreds of passionate fans of film..."


Not millions, not thousands, but hundreds!

[Drew Wiley]

Roger - looking at the batch codes of merely the 8x10 TMax films I bought last year
shows me they made multiple runs. A single industrial customer bought up a master roll of TMX (I bought the few leftover boxes), and TMY400 was custom cut in 8x10 maybe three times that I'm aware of. The schools are teaching with TMY sheet film. It's the new standard around here. I'm extrapolating a bit, of course, from personal observation. But good ole gritty TriX is nowhere near as versatile and has not been
promoted to anywhere near the degree of TMax films, which are far more likely to
survive reorganization, despite Kodak making themselves a pain in the butt to deal with.

[Allen in Montreal]

Since there's no more room for it in my refrigerator/freezer (1,926 320TXP sheets present and accounted for), I'll point you to Adorama, which still has some. :)

I will never consider myself a "hoarder" again! :) :) :)

[Fred L]

beats me by about, I dunno, 1800 sheets.

[Roger Cole]

Roger - looking at the batch codes of merely the 8x10 TMax films I bought last year
shows me they made multiple runs. A single industrial customer bought up a master roll of TMX (I bought the few leftover boxes), and TMY400 was custom cut in 8x10 maybe three times that I'm aware of. The schools are teaching with TMY sheet film. It's the new standard around here. I'm extrapolating a bit, of course, from personal observation. But good ole gritty TriX is nowhere near as versatile and has not been
promoted to anywhere near the degree of TMax films, which are far more likely to
survive reorganization, despite Kodak making themselves a pain in the butt to deal with.

Yabut, isn't all sheet film a drop in the bucket compared to 35mm? I too shoot TMY-2 in 4x5, because if I'm shooting 4x5 I'm taking my time and if I'm taking my time TMY-2 is superb. But it's less forgiving than old tech films. I mainly shoot Tri-X in 35mm and 120. It's fine grained enough, not really "gritty" at all for most of my prints, and (quibbling about details of why aside) effectively more forgiving, which I don't need when I plop the 4x5 on a tripod and spend 10 minutes setting up a shot but can use when I'm shooting quickly with a hand camera. I also like the way it pushes better so keeping it my bag for 35mm and 120 gives me a choice of shooting it at anything from EI 200 to 1250 with results I like.

Now if I wanted to make 11x14 prints from 35mm or 20x24 from 120, with smooth tones and little visible grain, it would be TMY at 400 or TMX or Acros if light allowed. But I'm generally not doing that. I print 35mm to 5x7 or 8x10, and 120 to 8x10 or 11x14, and Tri-X looks great like that (starts to show a bit "gritty" at 8x from 35mm, granted, but still pretty nice.)

But oh well - there's no accounting for taste. But there's also no denying that Tri-X is still a popular film, as film goes. I hope it doesn't go away, but if it does, well, there's HP5+.

[Drew Wiley]

Roger - a good way to unofficially look at this is by how often the expiration dates and batch codes change on the film. Take something like TechPan: they didn't run out of inventory until almost a full decade after the coating machine was already dismantled! With just 4x5 TMY or TMX the batch codes change several times a year.
So these seem to have quite a following. Around here TMY sells heavily in 35mm,
plus a lot of ACROS and 25 ASA films. TriX is steady, but not really anywhere near
the head of the pack. It has its own look, and quite a few people do wonderful things
with it - I'm just not one of them.

[Sal Santamaura]

...how often the expiration dates and batch codes change on the film...With just 4x5 TMY or TMX the batch codes change several times a year...TriX is steady, but not really anywhere near the head of the pack...As I assembled my cache of 5x7 and 8x10 320TXP during the course of 2011, three emulsion codes and three expiration dates were supplied. I think Kodak has been selling just as much 320TXP in a given size as it has 100TMX or TMY-2.

That conclusion is supported by the fact that both the latter films were discontinued as 8x10 stock products more than a year before 320TXP was. Also, 5x7 320TXP is listed as a stock item even today, whereas 100TMX was discontinued long ago and 5x7 TMAX 400 disappeared from the catalog even before TMY-2 was introduced.

[Jan Pedersen]

Proves that the stock cataloque is not accurate and updated. TMY-2 was out in 5x7 maybe not for long but i did buy some while it was available.
In the last production runs of TMY-2 in 8x10 in 2010 i bought from several vendors and have 3 different expiration dates with about a 3 month time difference.
Looks like a run per quarter for 8x10

[Allen in Montreal]

......... three emulsion codes and three expiration dates were supplied. I think Kodak has been selling just as much 320TXP in a given size as it has 100TMX or TMY-2.......

Kodak often claims in their advertising, that Tri-x is the best selling black and white film in the world.

[Sal Santamaura]

...TMY-2 was out in 5x7 maybe not for long but i did buy some while it was available...I sit corrected. :) 5x7 could have only been available as a stock item for a very short time after TMY-2 was introduced, though.

[Jan Pedersen]

Enjoy :D

[Sal Santamaura]

Enjoy :DI won't, but you probably shouldn't wait too long to enjoy it yourself:

http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1289023

[Jan Pedersen]

Sal, Thank you for posting this alarming observation. I have more than 600 sheets of TMY-2 8x10 in the freezer and was hoping to use that over the next 5 to 10 years but maybe not.

[John NYC]

I have to say even if Kodak keeps making E100G (which is my color film of choice 80 percent of the time right now on 8x10), I am going to stop buying it. Why? At current B&H prices...

Kodak E100G: 10 sheets costs about $140
Fuji Provia: 20 sheets costs about $170

I like Provia, and in fact, it has way better reciprocity than E100G. So, after the three boxes in my fridge are gone, I'm done.

I will still be buying Portra though, as there is no alternative practically right now in 8x10 in the U.S.

BH has now lowered its price to just under $120 for ten sheets of E100G. Seems like they were attempting a little price gouging there while things were up in the air?

[Sal Santamaura]

I have just tried to order some Tri-x 57 films and checked B&H and Badger Graphics and they are gone.


Since there's no more room for it in my refrigerator/freezer (1,926 320TXP sheets present and accounted for), I'll point you to Adorama, which still has some. :)


Thanks Sal! I have ordered a few boxes. :)That was a good move. B&H just got in more stock (46 boxes at the moment), but it's offered at the "new and improved" price of $124.95 per box. Still free shipping, though. :)