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kevs-2323668
17-Jan-2012, 12:03
I'm going to do a people fine art project with 8x10. Any recommendations on what to buy? I'd want the best bang for buck and great quality.... thanks!


this is studio and locations like hotels.
Shooting people -- small group and individuals.
Probably chrome. Any tips suggestions? I thinking ebay but am open to other ideas.


Any recommendations of film appreciated too. thanks!

E. von Hoegh
17-Jan-2012, 12:06
Let me guess. You have no experience with 8x10.

JosephBurke
17-Jan-2012, 12:35
Any experience with large format? with film?

kevs-2323668
17-Jan-2012, 12:56
20 years experience with film & photography, but no experience with any large format. that said I'm hiring an assistant to handle it all for now. Later I'll learn it all.

But we were going to rent for the project, I figure maybe just buy.

E. von Hoegh
17-Jan-2012, 12:57
I'd advise you to rent.

kevs-2323668
17-Jan-2012, 13:12
E. I don't know you but you are very snarky and annoying, please do not respond to any more post I make on this forum thank you.

kevs-2323668
17-Jan-2012, 13:14
Lot of attitude here, maybe it was a mistake to join this forum, sorry.

Kirk Gittings
17-Jan-2012, 13:20
Lot of attitude here, maybe it was a mistake to join this forum, sorry.

I agree with you. Sorry this is not typical. Hang in there. More constructive replies will come. Why 8x10 by the way? Are you going to print large? What type of prints?

Darin Boville
17-Jan-2012, 13:29
Just get a Sinar P and a few good lenses. If you want more portability get a Sinar F. Might need to buy a 4x5 version and get the 8x10 standard separately, depending on what is available and how much.

Used to be ungodly expensive but now used they are quite affordable (and resell easily, too). If you have $$$ and want nothing but the best get an Arca-Swiss, but the picts will look identical to those of the Sinar, of course. If people are filming you--making a sort of documentary of your project, say--then get a Deardorff which looks so much better on camera and will give you a sort of aura to the average viewer.

But, really, just get a Sinar. Do a search here and elsewhere for info.

Alternatives (un-asking your question a bit):

5x7 (lots of negative, much more portable)

4x5 (still pretty big)

stitched DSLR. Bigger than all the above, but not so easy with anything that moves.

--Darin

Scott Walker
17-Jan-2012, 13:30
If you are going to buy get something designed for the project. Since everything will be indoors get a good monorail with a few lenses and re sell it once done if you decide LF is not for you. you can get something very decent for about $2,500.00 - $3,000.00. I use a Sinar P2 which is solid and a good choice for indoor/studio work.

You will also need a solid tripod for indoor use, one with wheels is nice since the cameras are not real light.

You will also need film holders which can add up to about another $500.00 or so depending on how you plan on changing film and how often. Considering the film ranges from about $9.00 to $14.00 per sheet plus developing costs of about $7.00 per sheet you may not be going through a tremendous amount of film so you may be able to get away with only 3 or 4 holders. You can expect to pay $75.00 per holder for good quality used ones.

I don't shoot chromes so can't help there.

Good luck with your project :)

Drew Wiley
17-Jan-2012, 13:31
Maybe a more polite way of saying it, is that large format is not something one just
transposes into when previously attuned to small and medium format ways of looking
at things. It can get very intuitive itself, but takes time to get accustomed to. As
far as cameras go, there are so many good options out there that it is indeed difficult
to address this kind of question unless you've made some basic choices about price,
portability, folder versus monorail, modern techie fabrication versus traditional, etc. You might start by deciding what focal lengths lenses or at least angle of view you are most likely to work with. Once you do acquire a camera, regardless of what it is, you
slowly become accustomed to it. I wouldn't count on an assistant having these kinds
of specific skills. It's kinda like choosing the correct glove to fit your own hand, or a
specific pair of shoes for your own feet. Working with a view camera is obviously slower and more methodical than using ordinary smaller cameras, and a lot of things
can go wrong if the procedure hasn't become second-nature. But the rewards are
considerable if you have the patience for it. It's a good idea to hang around some
experienced large format shooters in your area and make real world comparisions of
the equip - but we can be an ornery lot!

Ari
17-Jan-2012, 13:32
Renting is a good way to try out some gear.
If you're getting set to buy, keep in mind the camera is just one component; there's a tripod, lenses, film holders, film, loupes, meters and cable releases to consider as well.
Sounds like you might be looking for a folding-type of camera, rather than a monorail.
The forum has umpteen pages for you to research and read on this topic, and half the fun is in learning and discovering.
But, the jump from smaller formats to large format is not made easily or automatically.
If you have a top-notch assistant, well-versed in LF, that always helps.

Brian C. Miller
17-Jan-2012, 15:16
I'm going to do a people fine art project with 8x10. Any recommendations on what to buy? I'd want the best bang for buck and great quality.... thanks!

Welcome to the forum!
(Please forgive some members attitude, your question is rather frequent.)

The "best bang for the buck" would be, really, nearly anything that isn't ancient, and the ancient stuff can deliver really awesome results, too. Just about any recent 8x10 camera will do a fine job for you. I use a Cambo Studio Camera (SC) and it's a wonderful machine. Others use Toyo or Tachihara, and you've had recommendations for Sinar. Basically, if the bellows are light-tight and the movements are sound, you won't go wrong with anything.

A 300mm to 360mm lens is about a normal length on 8x10. You'll want a lens with a modern flash connector on the shutter. It's a buyer's market for lenses and such, and the place where you rent the camera should have lenses on lens boards. Everybody has a favorite, but I recommend that you just use something from one of the main manufacturers. Really, lenses 100+ years old produce fine results. If you browse the "Image Sharing & Discussion" forum, you'll see it for yourself. The lens used us usually listed.

The main problem with LF is handling the film. LF film comes as a sheet, and these can attract dust very easily. Loading the film on location can take some practice, and you'll have to use a changing tent. Harrison makes the best tents. If you hire an assistant experienced with LF, then you shouldn't have a problem with that.

Kodak Portra is a superb people film, and it's available in 160 and 400. These days you really don't have much choice in color film. Fuji doesn't import their 8x10 color film to the US, and Kodak Ektar 8x10 was just made a special-order item.

r.e.
17-Jan-2012, 16:30
I'm going to do a people fine art project with 8x10. Any recommendations on what to buy? I'd want the best bang for buck and great quality.... thanks!


this is studio and locations like hotels.
Shooting people -- small group and individuals.
Probably chrome. Any tips suggestions? I thinking ebay but am open to other ideas.


Any recommendations of film appreciated too. thanks!

I think that the choice between renting and buying is a matter of estimating the cost of each and seeing if there is an appreciable difference having regard to what you will be able to sell the camera and lens(es) for if you purchase.

If you rent, and are in the US, the odds are that the rental company rents Sinars.

If you buy, I'd suggest that you try to do so here or on APUG before E-Bay. You are likely to get better pricing and there is a fair amount of peer pressure to be straight-up on descriptions and to deal honourably. Also, you can ask questions, request further photographs, etc. I've made many purchases on this forum, and have had only one difficult experience. If you buy via E-Bay or Craigslist, I would strongly suggest, given that you are new to this, that you buy locally and inspect the gear before purchase. You should also check Midwest Photo and KEH, which deal in used large format gear and have a reputation for fairly describing the equipment that they sell.

I see that you joined today. There is a 30 day waiting period to use the classifieds. If that is a problem, you could perhaps approach the moderators to try to make a case for giving you access sooner. I don't know how flexible the site is on that kind of issue.

I'd suggest that you go to the B&H Photo and Badger Graphic sites to see what is available in 8x10 film before you take this much further. As colour films, some people here would recommend Kodak Portra for your purpose before the reversal films that are available.

The second thing that you might do is settle on a lens or lenses. If you go to the home page on this site, and scroll down, you will find a heading under Lenses called Comparison Charts. If you go to the 8x10 chart, you will find the commonly available lenses that will work with an 8x10 camera. For each focal length, you will also find the (roughly) 35mm equivalent. In 8x10, lenses from 240mm to 360mm are generally used for portraits (as distinct from head shots). Some people use longer. To give you a rough benchmark, it is widely believed that Richard Avedon used a 360mm lens for his American West series. One important thing to take into account in lens selection is how much working distance you want between you and your subject(s).

Then it is a matter of identifying a camera that you think you will be comfortable working with. The basic choices are a field camera and a monorail camera. The home page of this site has material that discusses the differences between the two. Personally, I own an Arca-Swiss 8x10 monorail, but there are many other cameras that will do a perfectly good job for you and that are quite a bit less expensive. If you do some searches in the forum, you will find a wealth of material on the pros and cons of specific camera makes. I suspect that your biggest problem is going to be adjusting to composing an image that is upside down and reversed. You might find it useful to have a 35mm digital camera to help rough out composition. Also, on the home page you will find a discussion about viewing aids, such as an 8x10 frame that you can look through to help with composition. I might also add that if you do this project with 4x5, there are accessories available that would make it possible for you to see the image on the ground glass right side up.

Last point, get a very solid tripod and head that will easily handle the weight of your camera plus lens.

John Kasaian
17-Jan-2012, 17:02
I'm going to do a people fine art project with 8x10. Any recommendations on what to buy? I'd want the best bang for buck and great quality.... thanks!


this is studio and locations like hotels.
Shooting people -- small group and individuals.
Probably chrome. Any tips suggestions? I thinking ebay but am open to other ideas.


Any recommendations of film appreciated too. thanks!

OK, bang for the buck and quality. Plus you have an assistant.
Thats good.
Aside from the lens & development, stability is paramount when it comes to quality. Stability is also heavy and often less expensive being that most users of field cameras value light wieght.Sinars are excellent, there is also the old (and cheap) Calumet Green Monster. Either would be a good choice if they can lock down the movements you may need. Big heavy tripods like the Majestic are worth looking at, but there are certainly others---as long as it will handle the wieght.

Lens quality is another matter---do you want the bokeh spewing portrait lenses of the past or raw sharpness that shows every wrinkle and freckle?
Also, as you'll be shooting color, can you get enough color 8x10 film to finish your project?
With Kodak color materials in remission, thats a legit question.
Can you import enough Fuji to get 'er done? B&W won't be an issue unless your infatuated with using TXP or TMY. I'd suggest Ilford Delta if B&W is an option.
Also as you'll be shooting indoors, lighting will be a concern. 8x10 Film sucks up light like one of them black holes in Star Trek.
My 2-cents anyways
Good luck!

Alan Gales
17-Jan-2012, 17:39
I would recommend a large heavy tripod. A lot of people favor the lightweight carbon fiber tripods because they are easy to carry for hiking in the wilds or whatever which makes a lot of sense in that situation.

Shooting people is a whole different thing than shooting landscapes. You need to interact with people. That includes posing people and talking to them etc. What I'm getting at is the photographer ends up moving around a lot and there is more chances of bumping the tripod. A large heavy tripod tends to stay in place better than a lightweight one.

I fumble around enough shooting in my home. Shooting on location would have it's own set of problems. :)

kevs-2323668
17-Jan-2012, 19:40
thanks guys, great info!

Well more than makes up for the grouchy beginning.

Ironically, I'm still not opposed to renting. Some background:
I assisted dozens of photographers 20 years ago, but no one did 8x10 a lot. So I'm a 35mm guy. I was going to do this with the Canon 5d2 which I own, but realized if I want to make huge prints (9 ft x 6ft?... for exhibition or sales) I would need/ want to go big.

It was between the digital 180q (i think that's name) at a $700 rental or the 8x10 which rents for about $150 day, or 4x5... etc with normal and wide lens. Still I know--- film processing, drum scans, other misc rental... still I think the 8x10 quality is the best and the wow/PR factor is also unsurpassed.

Then I thought, well, I'm an owner more of a renter. If I just rent for this project (3-4 days shooting), and then another series or two in next few years, I could have bought a whole used system and not have to deal with rental and the hassle of rental.

Now I wish I had taken a course, but I have not yet (will rectify and learn later)
I have met some assistants/ students who say they know it well. I may rely on them for the first series and then learn it all for the 2nd. Bit risky I know... so I could still rent.. but again, I love to own, nothing beat that.

Questions from the previous responses:
Power: I just have Ludedyne 400's with three heads, I use on AC --it's direct light, hence at 100 iso short distance to f/8 or better, maybe even 11.. is that ok?

Motel room, too small? I may even have a film guy there two. There will be me and two models I'm shooting.

Film. I hear Kodak stopped making film but samys and others have Kodak stock from 2008 only $7.00 sheet. Polaroid is prohibitive now correct?

Fuji, I heard they do still make 8x10 film, but did not know is was not readily available here. So I wonder, if I do buy the 8x10 camera and accessories... what will be the film situation down the road -- 2,3 5, years from now? Could it be then very hard to sell the camera once or if things dry up, film wise?

Tripod, I have a nice light carbon Bogen, is that good or one needs to rent?

Holders, I was planning on doing 4 setups a day -- maybe shoot 5-7 exposures for each. and couple of test. thats 30 exposures. Holders are just $5, $10 a day to rent. But $75 to buy? is that new or used, dang that's a lot for a holder!

Did not think of buying here. sounds like a good idea, as ebay are total strangers, so I'll contact the moderator if I need to jump in soon.

I have heard of Sinar, years ago of course, that should do it. that's what Samys rents, and I know it's great quality and I think the default lenses are Schniders correct? But I have heard also of Cambo (Calument no), anyway open to ideas... buy/ rent/ Sinar... all this is good info. Things were pointed out I did not think of...

r.e.
17-Jan-2012, 19:48
The reference to Samy's suggests that you are in California. There are a good number of participants in this forum from there, and probably the best thing that you could do at this point is hook up with some of them. You could wait to see if they find and come forward in this thread, or perhaps start a thread in the Introductions sub-forum explaining what you want to do. Some of the Californians are pros, some amateurs. I would think that it would be a good idea for you to connect with at least one of the pros.

Frank Petronio
17-Jan-2012, 19:53
A nice way to rent is to deal with a commercial photographer who has an 8x10 system they may likely want to sell. Do a rent to own deal, which allows you to bail if you decide against it.

Most of the NY-LA rental places will rent nice quality, recent vintage Sinar P2 cameras and modern lenses - this is what you see Gregory Crewdson using in the videos, and he has a crew to manage all those pesky photographic concerns. Same with Stephen Miesel or Annie Leibowitz. Note that they show up with heavy duty tripods and all the fixings. Since 8x10 is on its last gasps, you might inquire about making a rent to own deal with them too, but note that sometimes their gear can be hammered.

Most people will shoot color neg since chromes have a shorter tonal range and less exposure latitude - at $25 per shot, who wants to bracket, especially people photos? In the 90s many places did not know how to scan negatives but the surviving operations are now expert at it. As it stands now, chromes are pretty to look at but less useful in a modern workflow. Kodak Portra and Portra 400 in 8x10 are the gold standard - but hurry up and use it while you can before anything else happens to the supply chain!

If you are buying outright, there are a lot of good deals. Most individual photographers here favor lighter, more portable cameras - Ebonys from Japan are some of the best. Arca-Swiss makes a beautiful, light monorail. The trusty Sinars are a great value - the heavier the camera the lower the price it seems... so if you are shooting out of a car or with a crew, a few extra pounds doesn't matter. The truth is that weight helps you make a better, steadier picture so if you can handle it, go for the heavy metal.

You can get into it with a carefully chosen outfit for about $1000 minimum, for a vintage wooden camera and older gear. If you are a very careful shopper and know what to look for, you can build a great outfit around a Sinar Norma or Deardorf or other higher quality vintage camera for $2500 or so. A clean 8x10 Sinar P2 is about $2500 used, I'd budget $5000 for a real nice set up with a couple good modern lenses, heavy Gitzo, good holders. If you want a new Arca or Ebony outfit I think the new cameras are well over $5K alone, you're looking at serious money....

There is a kid in LA named Daniel Stone you might hire as an assistant and he has an 8x10 kit.

I see Jordan has a sweet Phillips 8x10 for sale on the forum too - that is a very nice, lightweight 8x10.

r.e.
17-Jan-2012, 20:00
Kevs,

Pay attention to Frank. He is one of the people on this forum who knows what he is talking about, even if he does live in close proximity to Kodak.

Also, check out his web site. Given what you said you want to do in your last post, you may find it interesting.

John T
17-Jan-2012, 20:08
If you go to Samys, and can visit the Fairfax store, see Frank Schlagel in the pro section (4th floor). He was a long time large format (up to 8x20, I think) photographer. He knows his stuff

Frank Petronio
17-Jan-2012, 20:12
Heck I bet if you offered someone reasonable money they would take you out for a one-on-one shoot and custom workshop - then use them and their gear to assist you on your shoots.

Frank Petronio
17-Jan-2012, 20:20
Excuse the snippy replies at first, I make them too sometimes. What happens is that every month or so, some flaming idiot comes along proclaiming themselves uber-artists and how they want to shoot everything 8x10 and then ask the most basic, never-ever questions and tell people who have been shooting 8x10 for a couple of generations that they're wrong... meanwhile a lot of earnest, hard working people will write 10,000 words of very helpful well-intentioned advice that goes unheeded.

There have been a quite a few of those guys who have pestered us for months and dozens of people spent countless hours helping them - only to see them reselling their expensive gear - unused, mint like new - a few months later.

Most of us want to attract new people into LF photography to keep it going, to keep the manufacturers working, etc. but some people are just a waste of time. So congrats on surviving the hazing ritual ;-p Just shoot.

tgtaylor
17-Jan-2012, 20:25
If you decide on a monorail then I recommend getting a solid tripod and head and two tripod mounting blocks. I mount my Toyo 810G on a Gitzo G1500 tripod and G1570M head which has a large plate enabling 2 blocks to be mounted.

Thomas

John NYC
17-Jan-2012, 20:43
but realized if I want to make huge prints (9 ft x 6ft?... for exhibition or sales) I would need/ want to go big.

It was between the digital 180q (i think that's name) at a $700 rental or the 8x10 which rents for about $150 day, or 4x5... etc with normal and wide lens. Still I know--- film processing, drum scans, other misc rental... still I think the 8x10 quality is the best and the wow/PR factor is also unsurpassed.


How are you going to make those large prints from your 8x10 chromes? Are you going to be drum-scanning?

Two23
17-Jan-2012, 21:13
How are you going to make those large prints from your 8x10 chromes? Are you going to be drum-scanning?

That's a not insignificant expense, but it sounds like the OP has taken it into account.


Kent in SD

John NYC
17-Jan-2012, 21:26
That's a not insignificant expense, but it sounds like the OP has taken it into account.


Kent in SD

Yes, but there are a lot of logistics as well as the expense. If the OP doesn't want to uprez from his scan, he will need a 3,250 ppi drum scan. A lot of scanners don't offer that at 8x10, so better to find a scanning service with a good operator before committing to this approach.

John Kasaian
17-Jan-2012, 22:46
For 8x10 film holders, buy used. Check them out with cheap photo paper for leaks and return the leakers for better ones. If you have an assistant to load, you won't need a great many holders anyway.
If you're buying a camera, you might as well buy the tripod for it. 8x10s need solid support.

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2012, 09:37
Sinar gear is wonderful to work with, but the big geared P series will needs very ample
tripod support or a heavy-duty studio column. You also have to be aware of condition
issues buying used. Some of these cameras have been around a long time, so you need
to be aware of the different series, or preferably handle in person any specific camera
you are interested in. 8X10 chrome film seems to be steady as far as Fuji Provia is
concerned, but Kodak E100G is starting to skyrocket in price as economies of scale
decline, and Fuji Astia is very hard to get in 8x10 and actually officially discontinued.
I prefer the Kodak product because of its polyester base versus the triacetate of the
Fuji, but either one is an excellent film. Make sure you find local E6 processing that
can handle 8x10, and a scanning service that can do justice to this level of quality.
Direct optical printing (Cibachrome) is on its way out as the supplies dwindle.

kevs-2323668
18-Jan-2012, 11:56
Thanks guys, great info,

The rental guy at Samys was actually pushing for the medium format method. He reasoning being, after film and processing and drum scans etc... the cost is more or same. I do lean towards 8x10 for the previous reasons stated, but I do wonder about the film issue in the future. NO one has a crystal ball, but Drew/ others ...what is the projection on future availability and normal prices? (would be a bummer to buy and learn all this and then 2-3 years later film and processing is prohibitive -- still would be a great experience to be the last guy to dive in..)

I was thinking of going print film for the reasons stated - especially since there is no Polaroid, but I actually may go chrome, as I love the idea of having all those chrome sheets to show people later. The wow factor would be nuts, the chromes themselves. What you think, too risky? I shot chrome for years on 35... no problem. but I understand the risks.

I've just dipped my toes into the post shoot process. I called icon lab in LA about drum scans and processing. I understand scan could be super expensive at a GB +, but I may not print all the series images immediately. Actually, I don't know where the prints will be done, by me at a rental house or by a lab. I'll probably post later about that.

Holders --Don't most photographers want all the film in holders before shooting so as not to have to deal with loading at the shoot date?

Tripod, may post about that later.

Lot of stuff!

Thanks Frank, great info. did not see a Daniel Stone in the members list. I would give him a shout if you have his info.

John NYC
18-Jan-2012, 12:02
If you are doing art, by all means use film if it gets you excited. I am not sure it makes sense to use LF over MF digital for almost any purely commercial purpose.

Brian C. Miller
18-Jan-2012, 12:08
...but realized if I want to make huge prints (9 ft x 6ft?... for exhibition or sales) I would need/ want to go big.

There are a few optical printers that can do big stuff, but not that big. You'll have to get the film drum scanned. Also, your optical print size will be limited by the current roll size of the paper.


Power: I just have Ludedyne 400's with three heads, I use on AC --it's direct light, hence at 100 iso short distance to f/8 or better, maybe even 11.. is that ok?

No. You'll need at least enough power for f/22, and maybe a couple of stops more. Some lenses start at f/8, and go to f/90. Once you start putting light modifiers on things, then you'll need even more power to compensate for those. When you see a f/6.3 lens, for 8x10 that's a big (like pounds), fast lens, and the DOF is shallow.


Motel room, too small? I may even have a film guy there two. There will be me and two models I'm shooting.

That might be enough room, but they'll be up against the wall and the camera will be up against the other wall, unless you use a wide-angle lens. The common size for slightly-wide is 240mm.


Film. I hear Kodak stopped making film but samys and others have Kodak stock from 2008 only $7.00 sheet. Polaroid is prohibitive now correct?

There is no Polaroid, and Kodak is very much in the film business. You can buy both E100G and Portra in 8x10, right now, no problem. Portra is more popular than Ektachrome, which will be special-order when supplies run out. But yeah, Kodak is very much making film.


Fuji, I heard they do still make 8x10 film, but did not know is was not readily available here.

Fuji is the problem supplier for 8x10, not Kodak. There is Fuji 8x10 in stock, but I don't know the expiration date, and I don't know about getting more. You would have to check with B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/) and ask about resupply.


So I wonder, if I do buy the 8x10 camera and accessories... what will be the film situation down the road -- 2,3 5, years from now? Could it be then very hard to sell the camera once or if things dry up, film wise?

Black and white will be here forever. For color, I'm sure there will be something, but exactly what, I don't know. If Kodak film is being made five years down the line, color for 8x10 will be a special-order item, like a number of other emulsions. We use Canham Cameras (http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilmstatus.html) as the distributor for the special orders.


Tripod, I have a nice light carbon Bogen, is that good or one needs to rent?

No. You need massive support. Buy a used Bogen 3036 studio tripod and a good head. These are not light-weight cameras.


Holders, I was planning on doing 4 setups a day -- maybe shoot 5-7 exposures for each. and couple of test. thats 30 exposures. Holders are just $5, $10 a day to rent. But $75 to buy? is that new or used, dang that's a lot for a holder!

For a day's shooting, 15 holders sounds good. You can buy used off eBay, which is what I did for mine. I bought 10 for about $200, IIRC. Your eBay mileage will vary.

Film comes 10 sheets to a box. You will need three boxes per day, so about $360 per day in film, plus processing.


Did not think of buying here. sounds like a good idea, as ebay are total strangers, so I'll contact the moderator if I need to jump in soon.

I have heard of Sinar, years ago of course, that should do it. that's what Samys rents, and I know it's great quality and I think the default lenses are Schniders correct? But I have heard also of Cambo (Calument no), anyway open to ideas... buy/ rent/ Sinar... all this is good info. Things were pointed out I did not think of...

Schneider lenses compete with Rodenstock, Nikkor, and Fuji. These are fine lenses. Sinar cameras are fabulous, and I'm sure you'll love what you rent.

I also endorse that you should get together with other 8x10 photographers in your area. Spend a weekend with someone, and then a great many mysteries will become clear! :)

Drew Wiley
18-Jan-2012, 14:00
Shooting 8x10 color is just plain expensive, regardless. And it's going to go way up as
the artificially depressed prices of the past disappear and inflation combined with lower
demand catches up. But due to this very fact one is apt to shoot a lot more carefully
and waste less shots. The learning curve can be costly, however. The rewards of sheer square inches of film can be substantial, esp if you are competing against inkjet
enlarged from smaller formats or from digital capture. Either direct enlargement or
something like scanning and Lightjet can be used. But what is more important is who
does the printing and their ability to communicate with exactly what you expect. No
way to know the value of certain cameras down the line in terms of resale. There's a
glut of used Sinar at the moment, and it isn't very portable, so certainly is not likely
to appreciate. 8X10 per se, however, will probably continue to retain interest at least
for black and white photographers. I hope to keep working in both color and b&w, but
future film availability in color will no doubt be somewhat more restricted.

John NYC
18-Jan-2012, 17:17
Awesome post by Brian C Miller. Heed that advice.

Drew mentions it above, but it bears mentioning again. Working with 8x10 LF is different and the learning curve is slower than with smaller formats. Even if you have your experienced assistant doing the technical work, there is still the slower pace of using LF and how that will affect you directing the models.

Another idea would be to shoot both 8x10 AND MF digital in the same session. If you buy the 8x10 and rent the digital for a day, that could still be fairly economical. And your shots done on the MF system could also serve dual purpose: testing your shots and as part of the end product, especially if you find one or two of your 8x10s end up going awry, which you won't know until days after your shoot is over.

Robert Jonathan
19-Jan-2012, 04:22
I bought 10 for about $200, IIRC. Your eBay mileage will vary.

Aw man, I must've screwed up. I recently got 3 8x10 holders for around $129. Two of them are the Fidelity Deluxe, and one is Elite. I also have one Toyo... they're in good shape, but even new holders look like crap to me. There's something about them that makes me feel like they could've been designed so much better. Big giant plastic pieces of crap. I don't know, just thinking out loud in the form of text...

Anyway, to the OP, for drum scanning and printing, you can look at westcoastimaging.com. I haven't used them, but it could be a one-stop-shop for drum scans and exhibition prints. Just a thought.

For film, Fuji Provia and the different Velvia chromes/slides will probably be around a very long time, and at least Provia is almost always available.

In terms of Kodak chrome/slide film, there's just E100G. I just paid $119.95 for a box of 10 sheets from B&H. Guess what? Now it's $139.50. Wow, good timing!

For negs, the Portra 160 and 400 is available, and the price seems to be going up (I think I just saw it go up 10 bucks, am I right?).

Ektar 8x10 neg is in the process of being discontinued, I believe, and as people have stated already, the Fuji negs need to be imported.

aluncrockford
19-Jan-2012, 14:28
As someone who shot on 10x8 for years I would either go down the sinar P2 monorail or a deardorff options, the sinar works well in every situation as long as you have a sodding big tripod,a bag bellows loads of rails and a reducing back for shooting instant film. you can go down the rout of a sinar shutter and the sinar shutter lenses ,all this works well but it is ideally a set up for studio, if you want any thing which is a bit easier to use but with the disadvantage of limited in its movements then I prefer using the deardorff, it is much more instinctive to use and lighter to carry around though that is what an assistant if for . lens wise as I do not know what you are shooting it is tricky to suggest anything apart from a perhaps a 300 and if you are shooting interiors a 210 that covers.As for the neg, E6 option then the advantage of neg is it has a a wider exposure range and is the film of choice for most fine art photographers, and the size of there prints can be the size of a small house, E6 is certainly more saturated and has almost no grain but on location the risk of blowing out highlights or losing details in the shadows makes the neg option more appealing. About 10 slides and a harrison changing tent should resolve the film problems .Personally I would buy the kit it is not that much money and if the shoot runs on is a lot less than renting and it is not unheard of to charge the client a equipment hire charge which will help pay for it.

kevs-2323668
20-Jan-2012, 11:55
Guys, great stuff, thanks, btw, does this forum have no auto log in? and is email notification is done by the threads ala carte?

Brian, optical printing, what does that mean? I was just think of an enlarger that holds film in a carrier.

"being limited to the roll of paper" -- isn't printing always limited by the size of the paper -- ?

f/22, I may even be able to achieve that with a low wattage pack if direct snoot/ grid light, close will test. otherwise, it's another rental or time to buy a new pack system.

Very glad to hear that film will be here for a long time albeit maybe more pricey. Why would BW be more prevalent than color down the road? Special order, what does that mean? Kodak makes it as the request comes in?

Holders-- used -- light leaking sounds scary. I guess one could test all of them... seems crazy to do though.

John -- rent MF also? I heard the best MF option the 180q back, is that the name? it's $700 day rental. yikes! thats why I was thinking 8x10 -- it's even better quality, and cooler etc, one could buy a system... (an MF system -- they are 40 - 50k?)

But to rent MF at $700 a day and rent or buy the whole 8x10? also? ....

Alun:
Chrome -- again, I do love the idea of getting 8x10s at the end compared to negatives. It kind of finished art in itself. But I would be scared of the blown high lite to be honest. Only because 8x10 is so different that would be more likely to happen. correct?I know with 35mm I can almost nail chrome perfectly with just a meter...

Deardorff... you think it's easier, more intuitive? Leaning toward Sinar as people here seem to think it's gold standard, best medium or quality/ price...

Frank Petronio
20-Jan-2012, 12:14
His recommendation is for a Deardorff if you are a lone, outdoor-orientated photographer. The Sinar is for the studio or with a crew. There are other choices similar to the Deardorff for field work - they are very popular on this forum. Likewise there are several fine studio cameras besides the Sinar. And of course some people break the rules and take Sinars out in their backpacks or use wooden cameras in studios.

If I were shooting 8x10 chromes for an important job, I would use a meter, a digital camera, and a 4x5 camera with Fuji Instant Film to proof before I shot a single sheet of 8x10.

Even back when we used 8x10 Polaroid to proof we still bracketed 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop plus held some film back for pushing or pulling. Or we left things set up in the studio until we got test shots back from the lab.

Obviously if you are shooting people or out in nature then you have to nail it with each exposure, you don't want the best expression to be on the worst exposure. That alone is a good reason for using color negative.

Of course you could shoot both types of film to truly CYA.

Perhaps shooting 4x5 would be a good compromise? It is much more versatile and affordable. Based on your responses, I suspect you are a bit idealistic and starry-eyed about 8x10 and that's great (if you're rich) but the reality is that you can accomplish pretty much all your goals with a 4x5 and have makes smaller, less costly mistakes. Even if you grow into 8x10, having a 4x5 will save you a lot of spinning your wheels and wasting money.

anglophone1
20-Jan-2012, 12:20
Wise words from Frank.......

Brian C. Miller
20-Jan-2012, 12:29
Guys, great stuff, thanks, btw, does this forum have no auto log in?

There is a little check box next to the username-password, titled, "Remember me."


Brian, optical printing, what does that mean? I was just think of an enlarger that holds film in a carrier.

"being limited to the roll of paper" -- isn't printing always limited by the size of the paper -- ?

The current maximum width of enlarging paper is 50 inches, just a hair over 4ft. For sizes over that, the film must be drum scanned, and then printed with inkjet. If you want a 6ft x 9ft print, then the only option is inkjet.

(Edit) Just noticed that Kodak makes Ektacolor Ultra Endura in 72" width.


Very glad to hear that film will be here for a long time albeit maybe more pricey. Why would BW be more prevalent than color down the road? Special order, what does that mean? Kodak makes it as the request comes in?

Let's say that Kodak, now in Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings, decided that the "hundreds" of us who use film just don't matter anymore, and there's no more color Kodak film (probability: zero, or right next to it). Fuji has stopped shipping color sheet film to the US. Ilford doesn't produce color film. Therefore color film, eventually, could stop being produced. Producing color film is a huge, complex task. Producing B&W film is not so complex. If you want more information, please read the APUG (http://www.apug.org) threads.

Special order means exactly that, special order. The film is cut for sizes other than 8x10, and will only be cut for 8x10 when at least $15,000 worth of product is ordered. Please click on the link I posted for you. Also, do a forum search for "Kodak special order."

Terry Shoulders
20-Jan-2012, 12:52
I have 2 8x10 Deardorff's and am considering selling one (either one) as I do not need two anymore. if anyone is interested, I am offering an 8x10 Deardorff with a 4x5 additional back, plus 3 lenses and film holders. The lenses are a Schneider Super Angulon 8/165, a Schneider Symmar-S 5.6/210, and a Fujinon Copal 6.3/360.
I am still working out the price....any suggestions? I can not find any used ones at B&H or Calumet to go by.
Thanks, Terry

Jay DeFehr
20-Jan-2012, 13:12
Hi, and welcome,

I'd rent the MF digital for this gig, and play with film on a much smaller scale. If you shoot primarily color, buying into an 8x10 outfit at this point in the game is not so much an investment as a donation. Color film in 8x10 is going away, sooner than later. If you're comfortable with a digital workflow, the MF kit is the sensible option, and will allow you to concentrate on your images instead of your new-to-you, incredibly-complicated-and-demanding, space-eating, light-swallowing equipment.

I think by the time you get ready to print files from your 8x10 film, the $2,100 rental of the MFD kit will look like a bargain.

In any case, good luck, and I hope you'll stay around long enough to share your results/ experience.

Frank Petronio
20-Jan-2012, 14:03
In any case, good luck, and I hope you'll stay around long enough to share your results/ experience.


Or, like a lot of newbies, he'll buy a bunch of expensive nice items and then fire-sale them to us a few months later!!! Get an Ebony!

Jay DeFehr
20-Jan-2012, 14:15
Or, like a lot of newbies, he'll buy a bunch of expensive nice items and then fire-sale them to us a few months later!!! Get an Ebony!

Well played, sir!:D

John NYC
20-Jan-2012, 16:16
John -- rent MF also? I heard the best MF option the 180q back, is that the name? it's $700 day rental. yikes! thats why I was thinking 8x10 -- it's even better quality, and cooler etc, one could buy a system... (an MF system -- they are 40 - 50k?)

But to rent MF at $700 a day and rent or buy the whole 8x10? also? ....


I didn't get that money was going to be an object earlier.

Why don't you rent a full 8x10 setup with camera, one lens, holders, etc. and go do a dry run (with friends for models) before the real project and see what you think? It is a totally different way of working than what you are used to -- It is not just a bigger camera sitting on top of the tripod.

gliderbee
21-Jan-2012, 10:15
thanks guys, great info!

I want to make huge prints (9 ft x 6ft?... for exhibition or sales) I would need/ want to go big.


I have an 8x10 and a 5x7 camera (with also a 4x5 back), and at the place I take courses (just for fun, not going professional or something), we use 4x5. We made prints for an exhibition that were about 8ft x 5ft and even 4x5 is plenty big enough for that; we could easily go larger without detrimental effect on picture quality.

I prefer 5x7 because it makes contactprints that are acceptably large and can still be enlarged and/or scanned without too much cost.

I like 8x10 for contact printing, but I think for optical enlarging, it's overkill (let alone the price of the enlarger, the space it occupies, ...). I'm not sure it would make a real difference for scanning.

STefan.

ic-racer
21-Jan-2012, 11:19
Or, like a lot of newbies, he'll buy a bunch of expensive nice items and then fire-sale them to us a few months later!!! Get an Ebony!

Such were the good old days.

In today's 'flipping' culture, someone overpays for an Ebony then wants to sell it what he/she paid plus some extra cash entitlement due the owner because he/she now has some prestige of ownership.

John Koehrer
21-Jan-2012, 13:47
I noticed your wanting ~6X9' prints, 5X7 would be a closer ratio at 4X7" and you would be wasting far less film on cropping. ~20% vs over 25% of an 8X10 negative @ $10+/sheet.

There is a lesser selection of film available, lenses, film holders, similar availability to 8X10( $ all over the place) slightly lighter than 8X but still needs a decent tripod.

John NYC
21-Jan-2012, 14:05
I honestly don't understand why people always chime in with the 5x7 recommendation to people saying they want to shoot color. Right now Badger Graphics, Adorama and Freestyle carry NO color neg or chrome film in 5x7. At B&H, there is exactly ONE color film available in 5x7, Portra 160, but recall the OP said he wanted to shoot chromes. As we all know the future of Kodak's support of various film lines is tenuous, and they are Chapter 11. I can't imagine 5x7 color is something they are going to make a priority to maintain given that it is a tiny fraction of even the minuscule LF market in total.

At least 8x10 film is available now in the U.S. in chrome from Fuji, if Kodak should go away. Should buy you at least a couple years of comfort?

Colin Graham
21-Jan-2012, 15:29
I honestly don't understand why people always chime in with the 5x7 recommendation to people saying they want to shoot color. Right now Badger Graphics, Adorama and Freestyle carry NO color neg or chrome film in 5x7. At B&H, there is exactly ONE color film available in 5x7, Portra 160, but recall the OP said he wanted to shoot chromes. As we all know the future of Kodak's support of various film lines is tenuous, and they are Chapter 11. I can't imagine 5x7 color is something they are going to make a priority to maintain given that it is a tiny fraction of even the minuscule LF market in total.

At least 8x10 film is available now in the U.S. in chrome from Fuji, if Kodak should go away. Should buy you at least a couple years of comfort?

Because it's not that difficult to cut 5x7 sheets down from 8x10 film.

cjbroadbent
21-Jan-2012, 17:05
If my Gandolfii got burned in a fire, I would look around for an old Toyo 8x10, a 240 and a couple of holders.

John NYC
22-Jan-2012, 00:00
Because it's not that difficult to cut 5x7 sheets down from 8x10 film.

No, I am not getting that from post #48. Please explain.

Frank Petronio
22-Jan-2012, 00:18
I'm sure the art director would be impressed with the X-Acto skills required for 5x7 chromes. Why not Whole Plate?

Actually I want to know who this guy's client is? Just post the name and email/phone, thanks. I think he's just speculating out-loud and we're taking it seriously. Or he's idly rich. Maybe it's Brad Pitt's photo alias?

John NYC
22-Jan-2012, 00:38
I'm sure the art director would be impressed with the X-Acto skills required for 5x7 chromes. Why not Whole Plate?


Agree. From now on, when someone logs on here who has never shot large format, it is either 5x7 or whole plate as the recommendation if they are shooting color. How could I be so stupid to not know that?

urs0polar
22-Jan-2012, 01:43
Actually I want to know who this guy's client is? Just post the name and email/phone, thanks. I think he's just speculating out-loud and we're taking it seriously. Or he's idly rich. Maybe it's Brad Pitt's photo alias?

I agree completely that there is a sense of entitlement, Frank; was just too timid to say it :) For instance, asking about an "180q" back (he thinks), mentioned more than once so we know it's not a spelling error? Just do a google search for "180q digital back" before posting (the top results are for a PhaseOne IQ180! Who knew!? Failing that, call the rental house and make sure, so you can at least get the right info to those who are helping you). Also, "NO one has a crystal ball, but Drew/ others ...what is the projection on future availability and normal prices?" .... uh, just search the forum to find out no one really knows, but color negative doesn't look all that great right now. When I started in LF (with way less than 25 years experience in any sort of camera), before I asked questions, I at least checked the basics. You don't have to wait 30 days to see "Search" up there next to "New Posts". In addition, as a professional inquiry about gear for a paying job, I would also try to spell "recommendations" in the thread title correctly. I think it's great to help him, and I think that we should continue to help people even if they don't do all their research, but come on...

It's not wrong to do so per se, but I'm really convinced he didn't even try to answer some of his own questions first, and just expects everyone to teach the basics that are already here (and was a bit in your face to E. von Hoeg there at the beginning, who I learn from every time he posts) -- which I think explains some of the awkwardness here.

That said, the fact that everybody jumped in and helped is a testament to this forum, fwiw.

Cor
22-Jan-2012, 07:33
That said, the fact that everybody jumped in and helped is a testament to this forum, fwiw.

Hear Hear! if not helping out the OP, loads of other people who have read the thread, and hopefully read the thread in the future when they search for answers will distil excellent information from it !

Best,

Cor

Colin Graham
22-Jan-2012, 09:27
No, I am not getting that from post #48. Please explain.

I wasn't responding to post #48 by John Koehrer. I was responding to post #49, where you said
I honestly don't understand why people always chime in with the 5x7 recommendation to people saying they want to shoot color. You seemed sincerely confused by 'people always' recommending 5x7, not by one single post suggesting it, then you went on to list the unavailability of color film stock in 5x7.

So, it seemed worth stating that whatever is available in 8x10 can be cut to 2 sheets of 5x7 without much difficulty.

Alan Gales
22-Jan-2012, 11:00
I agree completely that there is a sense of entitlement, Frank; was just too timid to say it :)


Frank too timid? Say it ain't so! What's going to happen next? Pigs flying? Kodak going bankrupt? :eek:

John NYC
22-Jan-2012, 11:36
I wasn't responding to post #48 by John Koehrer. I was responding to post #49, where you said You seemed sincerely confused by 'people always' recommending 5x7, not by one single post suggesting it, then you went on to list the unavailability of color film stock in 5x7.

So, it seemed worth stating that whatever is available in 8x10 can be cut to 2 sheets of 5x7 without much difficulty.

Post 48 was one example from many different threads where people recommend 5x7 to newbies either knowing they want to shoot color or not confirming they don't.

While cutting 8x10 down to 5x7 isn't rocket science, it would be a serious pain in the ass for a newbie without a dark room.

Colin Graham
22-Jan-2012, 12:20
Post 48 was one example from many different threads where people recommend 5x7 to newbies either knowing they want to shoot color or not confirming they don't.

While cutting 8x10 down to 5x7 isn't rocket science, it would be a serious pain in the ass for a newbie without a dark room.

Maybe, but who is this newbie without a darkroom? I read '20 years experience with film & photography', and 'I'm hiring an assistant to handle it all for now.'

'People' act like LF is difficult, it's really tiresome. Nothing about LF is difficult, least of all trimming some sheets down in the dark. Practice on some plain paper a bit. It's no more difficult than loading the film holders.

Anyway, if shooting 5x7 chromes still sells 8x10 film, what's the problem? Anything to keep the demand high, right?

Frank Petronio
22-Jan-2012, 14:37
I think he was just a tourist and we respond with a lot of practical advice because many of us have considered shooting nicely produced 8x10 color too. Nothing wrong with engaging idle speculation but I wouldn't expect this to actually come to fruition, otherwise the OP would be more engaged.

It's still useful to others and entertaining. Sometimes these threads show up in search results but I think the way search engines handle forum threads is often wacky and the best info is lost.

Colin Graham
22-Jan-2012, 14:58
I think he was just a tourist and we respond with a lot of practical advice because many of us have considered shooting nicely produced 8x10 color too. Nothing wrong with engaging idle speculation but I wouldn't expect this to actually come to fruition, otherwise the OP would be more engaged.

It's still useful to others and entertaining. Sometimes these threads show up in search results but I think the way search engines handle forum threads is often wacky and the best info is lost.

I agree about the tourist assessment - I can't imagine a forum thread pushing me one way or another about what to pursue. The only reason I sort of 'leapt in' to defend 5x7 is because I recently decided on it over 8x10, mainly due to the option of cutting 8x10 stock down if I decided to pursue color more. That, and I've been snowed in for a week and am bored out of my mind.

John Kasaian
23-Jan-2012, 09:43
The nly thing better than seeing a aerial image on an 8x10 ground glass is seeing an 11x14 or large aerial image projected on a ground glass. Certainly MF is an option, but its not the same as woring with 8x10

Chromes are a non-issue for me, but I admit that good 8x10 chromes are incredible to look at. Have you seen any up close & personal? Color sheet film is a tough one to call. Fuji may have a monopoly on the market very soon. Do you like Fuji chromes?

8x10 holders, even used are very expensive I think the most I've had at one time is 20 loaded holders (for 40 exposures) If you have an assistant, I'd put him/her to work loading for you if the shoot requires lots and lots of film.

A suitable tripod is a neccesity. Really. With big negatives every defect is going to be annoyingly obvious so a rock solid camera is imperative.
I hope this helps!

kevs-2323668
23-Jan-2012, 17:05
thanks guys, I'm very engaged, just absorbing this all, and doing a lot of research. I had a black and white dark room since 11 yrs old.

Anyway, Frank, I'll send you an email.

BTW I was at the LA contemporary art show a couple of days ago at the SM airport hanger and one guy who has been in the fine art world 35 years had a booth. He has a huge print up of one of his artists it was 67" x47". He said it was a Lamda print. He said it was taken for sure with a Canon 5D. And it was a 1/2 body shot of a fat guy with tattoos etc. The body --chest hairs -- was surprising crisp. It was only in the the face that the resolution was not so good. He said he takes the digital file and then gets that drum scanned for higher quality. I never heard of that idea. Still not as good as medium or large format, but surprising to see. Still going LF.

Sorry about spelling, not my strong point.

Kirk Gittings
23-Jan-2012, 17:20
He said he takes the digital file and then gets that drum scanned for higher quality. I never heard of that idea. Still not as good as medium or large format, but surprising to see. Still going LF.

Sorry guy but this makes 0 sense. You may have heard him wrong. You can't scan a digital file. Maybe he said uprez? Either way it won't come anywhere close to a drum scanned 8x10-not even in the same ballpark.

I use a 5DII and would not try and make a fine art print from it anywhere near that large. I had a museum print a file from a 3x stitch about 8x12' that looked good at a distance but IMO was far from a fine print quality. It was more "poster" quality.

Frank Petronio
23-Jan-2012, 17:55
Kev verified to me that he is a real professional photographer so apologies for hazing.... anyway it sounds like he has some good, earnest questions so let's see if we can set him on the righteous path to salvation.

urs0polar
23-Jan-2012, 19:36
Kev verified to me that he is a real professional photographer so apologies for hazing.... anyway it sounds like he has some good, earnest questions so let's see if we can set him on the righteous path to salvation.

OK cool, sorry for hazing, Kev. I think a lot of people here (myself included) are like Linux nerds ... i.e., ask us questions, but RTFM first to show that you are not wasting time -- that way, people aren't bored by the time you get to the hard questions. Linux isn't as cool as 8x10, though, so we will try.

I think the original suggestion was best: Rent a Sinar P2 8x10, take some test shots, take a shot of them on a lightbox with a DSLR, invert in photoshop, choose the best one, send to one of our fine-art drum scanning forum members like Lenny to scan and print. If you like the results, then continue. Beyond that, the more specific and detailed the question, the better.

kevs-2323668
23-Jan-2012, 20:06
Kirk, thanks, I'll take your word for it. He really said that. He said it was definitely 35mm as he bought the camera for his artist. Again, the body was very crisp, but the face was the tell tell sign, it was not optimal. But who knows, maybe it had a lot of sharpening or maybe was not 35....

Urs)polar, it's ok, I understand, you got a lot of goofballs who just got out of art school coming on here. I really wish I had mastered this stuff years ago, but I always love the looseness of 35, so I never bothered with laborious LF. Now that I'm getting more into fine art it's quite appealing. I more of a buyer than renter, provided it's not prohibitive, so I leaning towards buying.

There was a thread on another site with apples to apples comparison with 8x10, 4x5, medium digital, 35, and the 8x10 samples just killed the 4x5. Still I did see some huge edgy interiors at Photo LA, last week that were shot 4x5 that looked flawless...

You guys way more in the know, have you shot 8x10, printed large and known for sure it was bringing you better result than 4x5? Obviously, that would require a real thorough and intuitive knowledge of the two sizes.

thanks Frank!

Frank Petronio
23-Jan-2012, 20:38
It depends on the situation. Sometimes a smaller format will produce great sharpness/resolution when you want to carry greater depth of field or need a faster shutter speed to compensate for wind/vibration.

An extreme example would be using an 8x10 in a Helicopter - a smaller format may be better because you could shoot at a higher shutter speed.

With all of these types of situations, the real answer is to test ahead of time.

I think that some of the top landscape/environmental photographers are using 4x5 with the best lenses, etc. while their peers are using 8x10 and other guys are using the better medium format digital backs. They all have pros and cons, and are only as good as the weakest "link" in the workflow "chain". For example, with 4x5 you'd want to be sure to use the best scanning service and technician.

aluncrockford
24-Jan-2012, 05:39
As someone who has shot shed loads of both, then the truth is 10x8 is miles better, particuarly if you do decide to shoot neg (Which might be wise), I find 10x8 a lot easier to use as you can see what you are doing and if you are going to hump around a load of kit the weight is not a large amount of difference . As for scanning , a good drum scan will allow printing to any practical size .And on the hire, buy front then I would suggest that buying will allow you to get to know the kit without worrying about the endless hire costs