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Louie Devincentis
16-Jan-2012, 06:57
Hi Everyone, I am new to the forum. I sat on the side lines for awhile and decided to join after seeing the wealth of knowledge on this forum. I've enjoyed photography all my life, I built my 1st darkroom when I was 15yrs old and I enjoyed developing B&W film unfortunately I had to stop because it became too expensive(some of you might remember the mid 70's when silver started to go through the roof) and now that I am older and have more time and a few more $$$$$. I've just completed my latest darkroom and purchased a 35mm Canon camera, a Mamiya RB67 and now I am looking for a large format camera which I have never used one before. There are 2 cameras that I am looking at, the Graflex Crown Grafic 4x5 and the Toyo 45c. I am looking guidance on the pros and cons to both of these two cameras. Looking forward to the replies from this forum. Thanks

BrianShaw
16-Jan-2012, 07:50
Welcome to the forum, Louie.

chassis
16-Jan-2012, 07:56
Welcome Louie, this has been a great site for me to take my photography to the next level.

TheDeardorffGuy
16-Jan-2012, 10:22
The 45C is a View Camera and the Graphic is not. The 45c has movements to correct perspective and depth of field. The Graphic has limited movements. It was designed as a handheld camera. The only thing they both have in common is a big negative.
Get the 45c it looks cooler, more knobs and things that move.

Jim Jones
16-Jan-2012, 11:05
I use both view cameras and Graphic press cameras. They each have their advantages. If limited to only one, it would be a view camera for its versatility. However, the Graphic is a handy self-contained camera when the view camera's movements aren't required. The Graphic is also easier to transport. Most of my large format cameras use the same size lensboards. This can be important when using more than one camera. Basic view and Graphic cameras are inexpensive for the patient shopper, so whichever you start with can be resold with little loss if you choose the other type. You may decide to keep both. Any of the books on large format photography are valuable to the new buyer and user. For the Graphic, Graphic Graflex Photography by Morgan & Morgan, 11th or later edition, is valuable.

banjo
16-Jan-2012, 11:55
first thing first the Crown Graphic IS A View camera as you focuss on the ground glass
it is a press camera too .
as for using the Crown the only thing that I have porblums is when needing a long lens! I own over a 100 camera different large format cameras and if you ask me what to buy for most of all work I have ever done I would get a Super Graphic // or Super Speed Graphic (its the same camera body just different lens & shutter) now some of the other field camera have more movements BUT you pay the price to get them!!
SO a Crown or a Super Graphic is a very good camera to start with and grow from.
And every body gets to talking about all the movements ! and yes movements are nice to have BUT 95* of the time you will never need them all!! SO next you need to think about what kind of shoting you are going to do! as you may not need any movements at all so why pay for all the movements that you may never use!

Louie Devincentis
16-Jan-2012, 14:45
Thanks, Brian, chassis for your welcome. The DeardorfGuy, Jim Jones and banjo thanks for your perspective. I think I have to research more before I decide which large format to go with. I think for know I will enjoy my darkroom and my medium format.
Louie

John Kasaian
16-Jan-2012, 14:59
There is a Graflex Crown View 4x5, and a very capable viewfinder it is!
http://graflex.org/articles/graphic-view/CrownView.html

Jim Graves
16-Jan-2012, 20:26
The Graphic IS a view camera ... and a good one ... a lot of us started with it and still use it. It is a great way to get into large format.

I shoot mostly 8x10 and Whole Plate now but still have, use, and love my 4x5 Speed Graphic ... if I could only keep one ... I'd keep the Speed Graphic without a second thought ... it is way more versatile than the other "view" cameras I have.

Where are you located?

John Kasaian
16-Jan-2012, 20:36
There is a Graflex Crown View 4x5, and a very capable viewfinder it is!
http://graflex.org/articles/graphic-view/CrownView.html

I meant "...capable view camera..":o

Louie Devincentis
17-Jan-2012, 12:42
I am wondering if the age of the grafix concerns you in any way, it seems that they are 40-60 years old. I afraid that parts might be hard to come buy just incase you need them.
Thanks.
Louie


Ps. Jim I live in Vaughan, Ontario Canada which is a suburb or Toronto.

rdenney
17-Jan-2012, 16:05
Graphics are old, but they are also plentiful and it's not that hard to get what you need, even if you have to buy a junk version of the camera to salvage the part.

The main difference between the Crown and the Toyo is the intended purpose. The Toyo is intended for use on a tripod where one needs the camera movements normally associated with view cameras. The Crown was intended for hand-held use by press photographers, with rangefinder focusing and at most a bit of front rise. Which is better for you depends on what you intend to do.

If you want to learn about camera movements and explore the whole view camera potential, the Toyo (or any other quality metal monorail, many of which are sold for less than a decent Crown these days) will provide that full set of features. If you just want a big negative and have no intention of using movements, or if you want to use the camera without a tripod, the Crown might be a more appropriate choice.

There's much more to it than that, especially when you include all the possibilities for lenses and so on. The best thing, though, may be just to buy one and use it to get a sense of what you want to do, and to test your interest in large format. Then, once your intentions are more developed, sell it and get something more appropriate. If you buy at an appropriate price, that may end up amounting to free rent.

Rick "welcome to the asylum" Denney

Louie Devincentis
18-Jan-2012, 12:53
Thanks Rick. I appreciate your input, I think I am probably leaning towards a camera that has the most amount of movement because I would like to explore large format to the fullest. I have been reading up on the different types of cameras which is starting to become overwhelming. Grafix, Sinar, Toyo, Linof each having a large following. It seems that the debate of which is better Canon or Nikon pales in comparison to the large format camera discussion on the pro's and con's of each outfit.
Thanks.
Louie

E. von Hoegh
18-Jan-2012, 12:56
Thanks Rick. I appreciate your input, I think I am probably leaning towards a camera that has the most amount of movement because I would like to explore large format to the fullest. I have been reading up on the different types of cameras which is starting to become overwhelming. Grafix, Sinar, Toyo, Linof each having a large following. It seems that the debate of which is better Canon or Nikon pales in comparison to the large format camera discussion on the pro's and con's of each outfit.
Thanks.
Louie

See what you started? Welcome to the zoo!;) :)

(Canon sucks, BTW ;))

unixrevolution
18-Jan-2012, 14:12
Louie,

I am a fellow new LF shooter (less than a year) and I thought for my first view camera I should get a monorail, because what really sets an LF camera apart from a standard 35mm or medium format camera is the movements more so than the big film.

After I got my monorail, I had a blast, so I suggest you go with the 45C. However, I would also suggest you do what I did: mount your lenses in Graphic boards and use the Toyo/Graphic lens board adapter in your Toyo, then get a Crown/Pacemaker graphic as a compliment to it. My Super Graphic has decent movements, works very well as a view camera, and is extremely portable, plus I can handhold it if necessary.

A Toyo and a Graphic working as one system instead of two separate cameras is the way to go, in my book.

SMR
18-Jan-2012, 15:47
I have been a long time member but first time posting. I need some help/advice.

I am planning to Frankfurt, Germany, in couple of weeks. Would you kindly suggest me a couple of places for buying a used Linhof 4x5 camera?

Thanks.

rdenney
18-Jan-2012, 20:46
Thanks Rick. I appreciate your input, I think I am probably leaning towards a camera that has the most amount of movement because I would like to explore large format to the fullest. I have been reading up on the different types of cameras which is starting to become overwhelming. Grafix, Sinar, Toyo, Linof each having a large following. It seems that the debate of which is better Canon or Nikon pales in comparison to the large format camera discussion on the pro's and con's of each outfit.

My wife uses a Nikon D300 and I use a Canon 5D. We each like our traditions, and it keeps us from sharing when we don't want to. For reasons best not to admit to publicly, however, it hase become imperative for me to have a working knowledge of both cameras. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and the difference between them does in fact come down to preference.

It's possible these days to find a Sinar F2 for less than $500, a Sinar F or F+ for around $300, or a Cambo SC for under $200. These are quality modular cameras, though the Sinar is more flexible. Above that, there are diminishing returns. An Arca Discovery or a Linhof Technikardan in the $500-600 range would be mighty tempting as well, though I think the Sinar is till the most flexible of these, and those deals would be much less common in any case. A Toyo 45F in good condition might be available at the right place and time for the right money. But for me the Sinar is the sweet spot between low price, quality, modularity, and availability, particularly if one doesn't want to wait for the unusually good deal. Right now, there are a couple of Linhof Kardan Colors, and several Sinar F's, for under $300 at KEH.com. The F1 seems to me the pick of the litter at that price point, but I'm biased towards Sinar.

The older non-modular cameras like the early Toyos (based on the Omega View) and the Calumet CC-400 series (based on the Kodak Master View) are also excellent, but they are less flexible and goodies for them are a bit less available. But they often sell for giveaway prices in the $100 range. KEH has several of these for less than that.

I have used (in college) an ancient Linhof Kardan, and have owned a Newton NueView, a Calumet CC-400, a Calumet 45NX (aka Cambo SCII), and lately a Sinar F2. Of these, only the wretched Newton was an unworthy camera. I still own the Calumets. The Sinar is the most flexible of these and the most fun to use, and back when I bought the others, the Sinar was not cheap like it is nowadays.

Rick "it's a good time to be in the monorail market" Denney

Louie Devincentis
19-Jan-2012, 17:01
Thanks Eric.
It sounds like you've found what your looking for, I've just started and with a little luck I will have a better understanding of what I really want in a few weeks/months.

Thanks Rick.
I too am a Canon guy and totally agree with you that both outfits bring a lot to the table.
I have been looking at the Sinar C 4x5 and the Graflex 4x5 graphic view camera. Lets see where this takes us. I will post my findings