Kodak bankruptcy soon inevitable? [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

MWitmann

7-Jan-2012, 09:03

Today i was hit by a very heavy frustrating and "almost confirmed" news: Kodak is very near to declare bankruptcy in the 2012.

I saw another thread about the news of the discontinued 8x10 Ektar 100 and 320, which has become "special orders".

Considering that recently i've invested something like 5000eur in a LF setup, and that i shot film from the beginning of my photographic experience, i must confess that i really don't know what to feel or bealive...

I feel somehow raped, because slowly the digital photography seem to force everybody to the use of it...but...i really don't want to.

Sincerely, what will be the future? We all have to sell our gear for nothing, due to the future lack of film (or keep it on a shelf, like a home made museum), or pay 100$ for a box of 10 sheets?

There are many signs that something is clearly going down and for me the paranoia recently became a normal state of mind....

what do you think?

John Kasaian

7-Jan-2012, 09:06

Shoot Ilford, Fuji, Foma, Orwo, or x-ray film and be happpy?

MWitmann

7-Jan-2012, 09:10

Shoot Ilford, Fuji, Foma, Orwo, or x-ray film and be happpy?

I've bought the LF setup in order to shoot color negative; also on medium format and 35mm i've almost always used color negative.

I'd feel even more raped if i'll have just one option (BW), which isn't even one of my preferences.

I mean...i've heard of many people stashing film in their freezers, but i really don't think that this would be more than a temporary solution.

Considering that Kodak is the only color negative producer still on the market (correct me if i'm wrong), and that it seems near bankruptcy, i can't see how i would be able to be happy or calm, because i'm starting to feel that the joy of photograph is becoming more some kind of partisanship, a guerrilla in which you have to use only what you find under the rocks, not a joy.

Gary Tarbert

7-Jan-2012, 09:24

Shoot Ilford, Fuji, Foma, Orwo, or x-ray film and be happpy?Remember Agfa ?? I think just because Kodak is an American company it hits home harder. I see a day when only the Efke 'S ilfords of the world will be supporting film in B&W and Fuji will be the the only colour alternative which the movie industry still uses and Fuji now will be their only source .BTW i love Acros so i hope i'm wrong Cheers Gary

Roger Cole

7-Jan-2012, 09:31

Try Ilford B&W film. As Steve Anchell says in his film developing cookbook - It is a film to measure all others by.

While personally I agree - I don't want to see Kodak go away and will really mourn the loss of Tri-X, I can do the majority of my photography quite happily with Ilford film and various brands of chemicals and paper.

BUT - the OP prefers color neg. In LF, there just isn't much other choice than Kodak. Fuji is hard to get, or at least very expensive if you import it from Japan. Of course it's possible they would start selling C-41 LF film here if Kodak stopped.

Even in smaller formats, for color I too prefer Portra 400 and Ektar 100. They're simply amazing films, and I do shoot some color. I'd hate to lose them, but if I do I will still shoot 35mm and MF color using Fuji.

It's more than a bit premature though. Bankruptcy does not, in itself, mean the end of Kodak or Kodak materials. It would allow them to restructure, possibly get out from under huge health care and pension obligations (which would truly suck for retirees, but help them continue operations) and the film division is still profitable. It's far from over yet.

Steve Smith

7-Jan-2012, 09:33

Considering that Kodak is the only color negative producer still on the market (correct me if i'm wrong)

Fujifilm?

Steve.

MWitmann

7-Jan-2012, 09:36

Try Ilford B&W film. As Steve Anchell says in his film developing cookbook - It is a film to measure all others by.

i have to say it once more: for my work i'm not interested in BW, my needs are connected to color, especially color negative.

For me using Ilford or any other BW support instead of color, is like going out with the desire of a vanilla ice cream but finally have mexican food; this isn't a solution.

Recently they put on market the new Portra formula, now the 4x5 format of the new Portra dosen't list anymore on their official website; the Ektar 4x5 is listed, but out of stock.

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Announces_Agreement_to_Sell_Eastman_Gelatine_Subsidiary.htm

Roger Cole

7-Jan-2012, 09:37

Considering that Kodak is the only color negative producer still on the market (correct me if i'm wrong)

Fujifilm?

Steve.

I missed that comment.

Steve of course is correct. Fuji also makes color neg, it's just hard to get in sheet film sizes in the US, though it is sold in Japan and you can import it yourself, IF you want to pay the price.

Lucky also apparently makes C-41 film in China. There was some discussion of this on APUG a while back. I've been unable to find it here, even on eBay, to experiment with, while Lucky B&W is easy to get. Someone on APUG sent me his last roll of 35mm Lucky C-41. I haven't shot it yet, but I think it is made in China.

In that case I was interested in something with a less saturated more pastel rendering, though - which it may or may not have but it doesn't matter if I can't get it. Even Fuji doesn't have anything like Ektar or anything as good as the new Portras though.

Hey, maybe if Kodak dies and Fuji wants to continue primarily with transparency they will bring back Astia and type R paper. A guy can dream, can't he? ;)

MWitmann

7-Jan-2012, 09:47

I missed that comment.

Steve of course is correct. Fuji also makes color neg, it's just hard to get in sheet film sizes in the US, though it is sold in Japan and you can import it yourself, IF you want to pay the price.

Lucky also apparently makes C-41 film in China. There was some discussion of this on APUG a while back. I've been unable to find it here, even on eBay, to experiment with, while Lucky B&W is easy to get. Someone on APUG sent me his last roll of 35mm Lucky C-41. I haven't shot it yet, but I think it is made in China.

In that case I was interested in something with a less saturated more pastel rendering, though - which it may or may not have but it doesn't matter if I can't get it. Even Fuji doesn't have anything like Ektar or anything as good as the new Portras though.

Hey, maybe if Kodak dies and Fuji wants to continue primarily with transparency they will bring back Astia and type R paper. A guy can dream, can't he? ;)

Yes, i'm aware of the fuji alternative, but, as you stated, this isn't the easiest film to get, in sheet format.

And for how long also the Fuji solution would be on the market? or the Ilford ?

The quickload system is dead, both for Kodak&Fuji; the new Portra formula (which can be considered a "toddler") is also....dead or almost.

The Ektar 100, also a fresh product, out of stock.

The Fuji available mostly as slide, not negative.

If Kodak intends to sell their patents to third part maybe could be a solution. If Fuji will speculate the situation and monopolize the LF color sheet film market, will be also ok.

But we have to consider that shooting LF will become a very exclusive process, even more than now, because also the prices will blow up considerably...

I thought about the Polaroid situation, and about how the "Impossible Project" took over the business, but they are selling more lomographic film, made by expired chemicals and so on, far away from being an "exact medium".

In the worst case scenario (no more kodak color films etc) i think that someone probably will take the business, but would be more a "family" business, like for the Impossible Project and, if you want, the Ebony cameras, where, in both cases, the prices are damn high.

Jeff Dexheimer

7-Jan-2012, 11:50

If there is a void and a profit to be made, someone will fill the void.

MWitmann

7-Jan-2012, 12:08

If there is a void and a profit to be made, someone will fill the void.

Yes, probably. But it's a bit sad to see a resolution in that...

At least, for the moment, on the Fuji site the 160 NS is still available.

What a sheet situation :)

vinny

7-Jan-2012, 13:17

Don't think for a second that fuji is going to step up to the plate and take over where kodak left off. They don't have much interest in providing the u.s. with LF products and communicating with them is almost impossible.

Gene McCluney

7-Jan-2012, 13:33

You could still get the films you wish as long has you have the money to fund a special order. Trouble is, most stores and vendors won't gamble on that big an order.

ignatiusjk

7-Jan-2012, 14:04

Look for smaller film companies like Efke try them out and see where you get.

Brian C. Miller

7-Jan-2012, 14:31

The OP wants color film. If Kodak actually stopped producing color film (unlikely, given a billion feet per year for the film industry), then the old Agfa factories might start coating color. These factories are actually still in operation producing color 35mm. And of course there's Fuji. And Lucky.

Chapter 11 backruptcy simply means that the creditors are staved off for a while, and the company gets things straightened out. Business still happens, products keep rolling off the lines, etc., etc. The one that means "It's the End of the World as We Know It, and I Feel Fine" is Chapter 7. Then everything gets sold for scrap.

Mark Woods

7-Jan-2012, 16:41

With the management that's in place, they'll probably spin off the film manufacturing. Building 38 has the capacity to make all the film Kodak can sell. BTW, motion picture imaging has the highest profit ratio of any division in Kodak. It's been supporting executive bonuses and bad business decisions. The NYSE has warned Kodak that it will be delisted if the price/share doesn't rise.

Mark Woods

7-Jan-2012, 16:42

BTW, the color neg for movies is an ECN2 process, not C41.

rwhb1

8-Jan-2012, 02:34

I suggest you look here.

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/colour-film-14-c.asp

Russ

nonuniform

8-Jan-2012, 02:46

The article in question stated that Kodak is trying to use the bankruptcy as a way to auction their patent portfolio. They've been trying to sell the patents for a while now, but with no luck. Other companies have followed a similar process and been successful. Not that Kodak will emerge unscathed, but it's too soon to tell.

Why is everyone saying Portra is dead and no longer listed on the Kodak website? Am I the only one capable of using Google?

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/colorNegativeIndex.jhtml?pq-path=13319/1230

MWitmann

8-Jan-2012, 04:31

I suggest you look here.

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/colour-film-14-c.asp

Russ

20 sheets pack of Fuji 160NS = 74£

Not bad at all....:eek:

:rolleyes:

MWitmann

8-Jan-2012, 04:38

Why is everyone saying Portra is dead and no longer listed on the Kodak website? Am I the only one capable of using Google?

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/colorNegativeIndex.jhtml?pq-path=13319/1230

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/list/ThemeID.3925700/Color_Negative_Film/categoryID.40677700

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/pd/ThemeID.3925700/EKTAR_100_Film__4_x_5_in./productID.188421800

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/list/ThemeID.3925700/Film/PROFESSIONAL_Film/categoryID.40677300

And following the link you've posted, try the "shop now" option and find some 4x5

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/portra/160main.jhtml?pq-path=2986

Tom J McDonald

8-Jan-2012, 04:44

20 sheets pack of Fuji 160NS = 74£

Not bad at all....:eek:

:rolleyes:

Warning, that store has given me nothing but terrible service. I suggest you find elsewhere if possible.

MWitmann

8-Jan-2012, 04:45

Warning, that store has given me nothing but terrible service. I suggest you find elsewhere if possible.

Tom, thanks for the advice...anyway, i was a bit ironic about the price :D

Probably in the near future (maybe already now..) would be useful to build a film availability database, in order to know what&where to buy.

I know that the idea could sound a bit alarmist, but would be probably useful. I keep Badgers as reference but i'm pretty sure that not everybody uses Badgers.

Ebay is a good source but sometimes what you find one day, can't be found in the future.

I think that the point is also about some psychological comfort, which would be offered by having 24/24 an usable producer site, from which order a standard set of products (ex. Kodak and their 4x5 products line) without the fear that the second day will disapear.

Having said that i will add that, at this time, Badgers are currently out of stock for the 4x5 new Portra 400; the only available 4x5 color negative is the Portra 160, and they are also out of stock for the Ektar 100 (probably few months...)

Tom J McDonald

8-Jan-2012, 05:16

MWitman, sorry, I thought you were quoting 10x8 and though it was a good price!
I agree about the database and have a list of the usual suspects.

Roger Cole

8-Jan-2012, 11:13

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/list/ThemeID.3925700/Color_Negative_Film/categoryID.40677700

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/pd/ThemeID.3925700/EKTAR_100_Film__4_x_5_in./productID.188421800

http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/list/ThemeID.3925700/Film/PROFESSIONAL_Film/categoryID.40677300

And following the link you've posted, try the "shop now" option and find some 4x5

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/portra/160main.jhtml?pq-path=2986

Humm, but Freestyle, B&H and Adorama all list it in stock.

Time to stock up? I can't really afford to buy a large amount but maybe 10 boxes...of course, with these great idea 10 sheet boxes :rolleyes: that isn't so much film.

MWitmann

8-Jan-2012, 12:52

Not even with 1000 boxes of film i would feel safe, and at this moment i can't even afford 10 boxes...

Lenny Eiger

8-Jan-2012, 13:07

This worries me. At some moment there will be a tipping point and film will be no more. I watched this happen with typesetters after the output got almost as good. (Note the almost.) There are plenty of instances where the businesses will simply 'be no more". Blockbuster video is also going away, as Netflix is the way most people stream...

Kodak spinning off film - maybe. That would be good. I can't imagine a bankruptcy court allowing them to continue selling product based on an old paradigm. But Kodak has never been that smart - ok, dumbest company ever. They might just not spin it off, or take 5 years to do so.

Kodak going down could also take Ilford down. I use Delta as my primary film these days, I think its better than TMax 100 anyway. Regardless, it could all go away. Just like typesetters. One has to have distribution outlets, stores, and the like. If the major film supplier goes away distribution channels may just disappear.

I hope I am just paranoid, and all wrong about this. However, it certainly seems a bit dangerous to me...

What with everything else going on in photography these days, post-modernism's ugly and boring imagery, Getty, Flikr and others selling so many pre-shot images and wiping out the commercial arena, it certainly is a new world where photography, as I studied it, seems not too welcome.

Lenny

Kevin Crisp

8-Jan-2012, 13:13

Kodak "going down" would take Ilford down because......?

clay harmon

8-Jan-2012, 13:18

The future ain't what it used to be.

MWitmann

8-Jan-2012, 13:30

I hope I am just paranoid, and all wrong about this. However, it certainly seems a bit dangerous to me...

Lenny

same here.

If shooting film/LF will become so specialized all the available film, i mean the remaining producers, will sell their product in a appropriate range of price, and i mean high.

Also the releases and the development will suffer a lot, meaning that all the new products will enter a very specific category..i mean that you'll pay like you would buy supplies for a rocket project, and not some sheet film.

As i've suggested before, i think that could be a canhe if the business would end in the hands of a smaller company but, again, everything will turn in an almost "family business", (like for Ebony, Polaroid>Impossible project etc) and rising the prices.

So shoot film will clearly become a form a resistence, like in the opening scene of Rise of the machines..

Allen in Montreal

8-Jan-2012, 16:45

This worries me........

Kodak going down could also take Ilford down........ If the major film supplier goes away distribution channels may just disappear.

I hope I am just paranoid, and all wrong about this. However, it certainly seems a bit dangerous to me...

What with everything else going on in photography these days, post-modernism's ugly and boring imagery, Getty, Flikr and others selling so many pre-shot images.....

Lenny

I don't think Kodak can take Ilford down with it. Smaller retailers may throw in the towel, direct manufacturer web sales may become the norm perhaps, cutting out everyone in the middle except the major players like B+H, Freestyle etc.

I agree, I hate looking at the Report on Business and other Biz pubs and seeing the cheesie dollar a download stock images to illustrate the business stories, cheap, cheesie, fast, the new good!

It worries me too, I am hoarding all the Kodak stuff I love, I will soon have about 20 years worth of most the sundry items (D-76, Dektol, X-tol, Fixer, Hypo clear, photo flo etc.).

Drew Wiley

8-Jan-2012, 17:06

Life is short and I too old anyway to waste energy panicking. A freezer is a pretty
minor investment. I plan to be using 8X10 color neg film for some time. But one can
only print so many of these shots anyway. And large format isn't for machine gunners either. Scarcity just makes you more careful. Let's just put all this in persepctive. Color neg sheet film might or might not be available in a decade. But
virtually everything state of the art digitally at this moment will be as dead as
a dodo in ten years and probably need replacing. Adapting is just part of photography and always has been. Favorite films and papers disappear from time to time. Right now quite a few things are disappearing including whole infrastructures. Plenty of hundred year-old companies are going down the drain, and often newer technology has nothing to do with it. Just the economic climate mixed with greed and incompetence in many cases. Color neg film will finally hit its demise when
C41 is no longer available. But assuming that Fuji won't step in if Kodak goes down
is just a sheer guess without any real merit, unless someone here has actual inside
information. And it's my own assumption that nobody on this forum is a member of
Fuji's management team.

8-Jan-2012, 17:24

This worries me...

Kodak going down could also take Ilford down. I use Delta as my primary film these days, I think its better than TMax 100 anyway. Regardless, it could all go away. Just like typesetters. One has to have distribution outlets, stores, and the like. If the major film supplier goes away distribution channels may just disappear.

I hope I am just paranoid, and all wrong about this. However, it certainly seems a bit dangerous to me...
Lenny

It's OK to be a little paranoid.

Regarding distribution... Kodak has been killing it's distribution as a way to kill the product. It seems almost intentional. "We'll sell less if we sell it ten to a box instead of fifty or various quantities... We'll make it available special order at random intervals where you put money up first, plan way ahead, and deal with the uncertainty. That's a winning to keep product flowing out the door"

It's not marketing, it's acting like an old fashioned monopoly, which they aren't. I wouldn't be surprised if they have some telecom bellheads working in their upper management. They should be trying to satisfy curiosity and make it available to more people rather than special orders which require way more steps and waiting to get what other companies sell in a normal fashion. Ilford's got it going right with their new cool pinhole camera that creates more consumers of film and more ways to consume film. Kodak has completed ignored the whole lomo business which is probably bigger than the LF guys with beards market.

As to worrying about stores and distributions channels going away, it already has. Ilford and most of us live in a post-retail world when it comes to photography. If you can put it online and sell it with plastic or paypal, you're all set to distribute. It's a coincidental holdover or vestige that we can buy B&W film in a retail location.

John Kasaian

9-Jan-2012, 12:45

Lets not forget Georgie E. started his empire making dry plates on a shoestring budget.

Lynn Jones

10-Jan-2012, 13:38

I've been a working photographer/cinematographer, writer, sometimes inventor, long time photo professor, and been making cameras, lenses, lab equipment for over 6 decades. Kodak made a few mistakes (no more than most other companies), but the liklihood of bandruptcy is purely wall street! Their toying with prominent companies could "screw up corn flakes". The pressures from corporate raiders has influenced Kodak to stupidly sell important parts of their business until finally the only thing they will have left will be film manufacturing, a relatively low profit aspect, and then only the memory of a Kodak name will be left.

It is no wonder that many relatively large companies have avoided "going public" so that the predatory raiders cannot attack.

Lynn

patrickjames

10-Jan-2012, 17:42

What with everything else going on in photography these days, post-modernism's ugly and boring imagery, Getty, Flikr and others selling so many pre-shot images and wiping out the commercial arena, it certainly is a new world where photography, as I studied it, seems not too welcome.

Lenny

I agree with you Lenny. I am at the point where I might give up photography.

Mark Woods

10-Jan-2012, 17:47

I make images because I'm passionate about them. I could care less about what's popular and selling right now -- mostly dead photographers. I care about what I do and it's independent of all the BS swirling around. FWIW

Jay DeFehr

10-Jan-2012, 19:24

I don't think Kodak can take Ilford down with it. Smaller retailers may throw in the towel, direct manufacturer web sales may become the norm perhaps, cutting out everyone in the middle except the major players like B+H, Freestyle etc.

I agree, I hate looking at the Report on Business and other Biz pubs and seeing the cheesie dollar a download stock images to illustrate the business stories, cheap, cheesie, fast, the new good!

It worries me too, I am hoarding all the Kodak stuff I love, I will soon have about 20 years worth of most the sundry items (D-76, Dektol, X-tol, Fixer, Hypo clear, photo flo etc.).

Allen,

Stockpiling chemicals is not a sound strategy, as chemicals expire,but formulas do not. A far better strategy would be to switch to published formulas and compound your own solutions from bulk chemicals. With a little ingenuity you can make everything you need from a few, widely available chemicals. Save your shelf/freezer space for film and/or paper, if that's important to you.

Jay DeFehr

10-Jan-2012, 19:29

Lets not forget Georgie E. started his empire making dry plates on a shoestring budget.

I've not forgotten. GE was adapting/developing an emerging technology and not clinging to Daguerreotypes or WPC. Adapt or die.

Drew Wiley

10-Jan-2012, 20:49

Some powdered developers or unopened concentrates like HC110 will allegedly keep
for decades. Others won't, esp color chem. Most b&w developers are easy enough make from scratch. Popular ones are already being marketed by alternate sources.
And rarely does one become dependent upon the characteristics of just one developer. Plenty of options out there. High speed films don't keep well. But most sheet films can be stored frozen unopened for maybe a decade. Adapt yes, but there's there's no need to give up and die. The end of the world has come and gone
for photographers numerous times before, and we're still taking pictures!

Vaughn

10-Jan-2012, 22:28

Kodak stock up 46%. Dang, wish I could predict the future...that would have been an easy way to make a few buck!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16498261

MWitmann

13-Jan-2012, 04:19

joolsb

13-Jan-2012, 04:30

Kodak stock up 46%. Dang, wish I could predict the future...that would have been an easy way to make a few buck!

Reading the report, it makes one wonder what is going to happen to the film division as the company transforms itself into a 'digital player'...

'"As we complete Kodak's transformation to a digital company, our future markets will be very different from our past, and we need to organise ourselves in keeping with that evolution," chief executive Antonio Perez said.'

Hmmmm.

Gary Tarbert

13-Jan-2012, 06:41

i'll add also that almost daily i read new threads about new discontinued product or services: "no more E-6 developing ehere and there", "discontinued ilfochrome" etc

As i've stated, i'm mainly intrested in color photography: i've invested many $$$ in order to start this LF color adventure and now i have to sell even my pants in order to invest in refrigerators and stocks? Or give up on my interests and consider that "it's ok, the BW still on the market", i really don't think that this would be a solution or a comfort.

And i really don't want to feel that kind of peak, as somebody else stated, "I am at the point where I might give up photography".Holy Foxtrot!! What are you talking about , Keep shooting until you can't ,Not when it get's a little tougher!!Ilfochrome wasn't the be all and end all anyway , Fujiflex is a viable alternative (better shadow detail)And fridges are still cheaper than high megapixel digital backs last time i checked, I know you are fairly new and it must appear that the glass is half empty , But trust me the glass is half full , If in in 10 years time their is no colour film available in the world , You would have 10years experience with LF that you would not have if you gave up now . Cheers Gary

Allen in Montreal

13-Jan-2012, 10:08

Allen,

Stockpiling chemicals is not a sound strategy, as chemicals expire,but formulas do not. A far better strategy would be to switch to published formulas and compound your own solutions from bulk chemicals. With a little ingenuity you can make everything you need from a few, widely available chemicals. Save your shelf/freezer space for film and/or paper, if that's important to you.

Jay,

True, but, in the early 90's a large camera store in Montreal went bust. On the final day of the bankruptcy sale I bought out all the darkroom supplies.
Over 16 years later, everything from Kodak is still good! The bags of Selectol Soft are starting to brown slightly. I am still using supplies from that haul and they are all fine.

I am harsh on Kodak management, but they make good stuff that is made to last!
:) :)

I now have about 20 bags to make 5 liter X-tol, when that runs out, I will re-evaluate.
I have about a dozen bottles of HC-110, I am still using some from the early 90s haul, as Drew says, if never opened, it can last forever!

One less thing to change for the next decade at least.

MWitmann

14-Jan-2012, 11:29

Holy Foxtrot!! What are you talking about , Keep shooting until you can't ,Not when it get's a little tougher!!Ilfochrome wasn't the be all and end all anyway , Fujiflex is a viable alternative (better shadow detail)And fridges are still cheaper than high megapixel digital backs last time i checked, I know you are fairly new and it must appear that the glass is half empty , But trust me the glass is half full , If in in 10 years time their is no colour film available in the world , You would have 10years experience with LF that you would not have if you gave up now . Cheers Gary

Probably you're right, the glass is half full, but considering that not everyone is able to invest K$ in stocking, i will try to convince myself about the half full :). I saw several users stating that " i've just put an order of 2K of film", but this kind of insurance is for the elite. I was thinking more about being able to shoot when and how much i want to, depending also on my available funds, and not to sell my house for stocking, in order to invest in refrigerators and film.

My point was mainly about how everything tend to turn in something like "let's stock and be happy for the remaining period of available film" instead of be relaxed; and not acting like a moribund that tries to convince his self that "will be ok anyway".

Mark Woods

14-Jan-2012, 17:51

There are other processes that will allow you to make the emulsion, as was mentioned before.

Drew Wiley

14-Jan-2012, 19:20

Why not just roll over and die? It's just too much of a hardship to drive down the
street and see a refrigerator on someone's lawn that says, "Working/Free", or to eat
one more frozen pizza from the frig you've already got? Heck, I've always found it
sensible to keep some extra film around. Distribution has always been flaky at times. This is nothing. Quite a few of us remember when the Hunt bros got a monopoly on the silver market and the price of paper skyrocketed. Then Oriental
Seagull disappered roughly at the same time Brilliant did. Then Ilford got in trouble
and it looked like Galerie was going extinct. Quite a few printmakers thought it was
the end of the world. Same thing happened with color photog once dye transfer was discontinued - some quit photography, some figured out that it was possible to do
superb work in Ciba, some reinvented DT, and some moved on to digital printing.
Evolution at work. Keep adapting or go extinct. It's always been like that.

jm51

15-Jan-2012, 11:49

i'll add also that almost daily i read new threads about new discontinued product or services: "no more E-6 developing ehere and there", "discontinued ilfochrome" etc

As i've stated, i'm mainly intrested in color photography: i've invested many $$$ in order to start this LF color adventure and now i have to sell even my pants in order to invest in refrigerators and stocks? Or give up on my interests and consider that "it's ok, the BW still on the market", i really don't think that this would be a solution or a comfort.

And i really don't want to feel that kind of peak, as somebody else stated, "I am at the point where I might give up photography".

There was lf colour photography before the invention of colour film so there will still be lf colour photography should colour film become extinct.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Sergey+Prokudin-Gorsky&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=ByATT_6GIo748QPOppGGBA&biw=1280&bih=599&sei=CiATT5GJJ8Gj8QOevNiuBA

Brian C. Miller

15-Jan-2012, 14:03

JM, there's a limit to what can be done.
Sure, we could do color photography with three RGB plates (Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/)). It would take some work, but, yes, it can be done.
Could we do Autochromes? Unlikely, as the process, not even in general, has been restarted. I think one guy is trying, but that's it.
Could we do Kodachromes? Not without the budget and backing of a real film manufacturer, and the product would be really expensive.

Drew Wiley

15-Jan-2012, 15:12

Gene McCluney

15-Jan-2012, 18:46

All kinds of photographic processes can be reinvented or revived, and some allegedly extinct forms of color photography are being currently experimented with.
As long as panchromatic sheet film is available, tricolor photography in the traditional sense is possible. But that's no practical substitute for what modern color
film does. And the need for such film is not going to simply disappear. Something practical will still be around once all this dust settles.

Well, the demise of Polaroid as a film-maker certainly put a crimp in certain important types of photography, and this demise was partially due to corporate manipulation, not complete lack of demand of product. Now that it is gone, re-inventing the technology is proving to be quite difficult, and those that are marketing some substitute materials: The Impossible Project, make films not even close to the pictorial quality of traditional Polaroid materials.

Brian C. Miller

15-Jan-2012, 20:11

Fuji is making instant film. Unfortunately, they decided to drop the 4x5 format, due to lack of demand. No way is Kodak going to bring back their instant film product.

It may be easier to build vacuum holders for 5-mil film base rather than invest in R&D to coat 7-mil base. Honestly, I'd buy new holders if it meant that I could use the Kodak MP film. That stuff is just too trick! Twin Lens Life did a blog post about it, and that is some good stuff! Mind-bending lattitude!

MWitmann

16-Jan-2012, 09:14

Sincerely i'm really thinking about the life of the Fuji 160NS (4x5); it could be a very good solution, if will last. Now everything depends on how Fuji will consider their future, by takig the chance of remaining the only color negative producer in a certain category, or if also they will go into the production of digital keylocks....

Drew Wiley

16-Jan-2012, 09:32

At this point it is meaningless to assume that Kodak will simply disappear. None of us knows what things will be like after reorganization, if that in fact transpires. The
overall demand for color film still represents a huge amount of profit for someone. But
declining demand can't subsidize mlultiple branches of an oversized corporation. Until
the dust settles, all this doom and gloom is highly premature. A good time to stock up
on the sheet film that is still available, for sure, but even that custom will temporarily
decrease mfg demand. Polaroid was a completely different issue, a much more defined
and vunerable niche.

tbeaman

16-Jan-2012, 13:55

Still, Polaroid's situation was similar enough to still serve as a cautionary and perhaps alarmist tale. But on the other side of the coin, we have Ilford. To me, those two serve to define the gamut of possible outcomes. I hope for an Ilford type resolution, and find a Polaroid one unlikely, but we'll probably end up with something in between.

MWitmann

16-Jan-2012, 15:58

yes, we have ilford, but my concern was related to the color negative extinction, not the BW one :)

rdenney

16-Jan-2012, 16:31

yes, we have ilford, but my concern was related to the color negative extinction, not the BW one :)

The point was not Ilford as a backup in case of the loss of Kodak, but Ilford as an example of a film company saved from dissolution and given a new life by smart investors. I'm not familiar with the Ilford story, or how they came to be part of Harman, but it seems to have worked better than the Polaroid story, which can only be described as a collapse, with only the brand name still floating around and the technology being beyond (so far, though we are hopeful) resuscitation.

The best outcome is that by some combination of events, the machinery and expertise of Kodak is preserved. Given the size of the machinery, that is going to be a challenge.

Rick "who would not want to be depending on a Kodak pension just now" Denney

Ed Richards

16-Jan-2012, 17:31

> Rick "who would not want to be depending on a Kodak pension just now" Denney

The story I heard said that Kodak did not screw the employees and loot (right size) the pension, so the employees with pensions should be OK.

jayabbas

16-Jan-2012, 20:03

And we went to the moon !! Making color film should not be relegated to antiquity, but then again many complex things have gone by the wayside never to be seen again . I do hope for a continuing production of color film as I am an analog holdout, er junkie.

Riccis

18-Jan-2012, 22:53

It's official now...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-19/kodak-files-for-bankruptcy-in-new-york.html

Ed Richards

19-Jan-2012, 11:07

It should be pretty easy to reconstruction color separations in Photoshop, or do dye transfers in the darkroom. So all you need is black and white and a static object to shoot. Or maybe we should starting rebuilding those old beam-splitter cameras that shot all three separations at once.

Drew Wiley

19-Jan-2012, 14:07

It's not all that easy, Ed. Those of us currently making separation negatives (either
digitally or like me, analog) tend to be using TMax. Others are doing enlarged negs with
image-setting supplies which themselves are nearing obsolescence. Rebuilding beam
splitter cameras if a major chore (several people have done it); or building a nice new
modern one would be expensive, and all these things give you exactly one shot before
reloading, plus a lot of weight and bulk. Studio still life work can be done in camera
with a basic registration-back process camera. Photoshop simplifies matching curves
and registration, but then you're dependent upon the survival of current scanners,
associated software, and film-recorders - all even more at risk for obsolescene than
color film itself. Dye transfer film can be made again (and has been), and alternate
dyes are available. But it's a lot of work. But that may be where we're headed if one
wishes to be distinguised from the avalache of digital ho-hum.