Future of commercial color film processing?

[Noah A]

I hate to start a discussion that's sure to be filled with speculation. But this is the main thing I've been thinking of in light of the news about Kodak.

I asked my lab a few weeks ago what they would do if Kodak went under and stopped providing C-41 chemistry. They sort of wavered, but they did say that Fuji still sells chemicals in the US and in fact has been lobbying them to switch. They also said that they've considered ending their film operations several times, but that their film business was now pretty steady and they'd keep it going as long as there is demand.

I'm wondering if any of you other color film shooters have had the same discussion with your lab...will they switch to fuji chemistry if kodak dies, or will they just use it as an opportunity to shut down their processing?

Personally, I have 8-12 months worth of Portra 160 in my freezer and I'm trying to decide if it's worth buying another 6 months worth (which is all I could afford right now). Or is it best to just save my pennies for an MFDB?

I'd love to shoot film indefinitely, but unless fuji steps up their distribution of color sheet film in the US, I figure I'll shoot film for another two years and by that time I'll be able to get a used IQ180 for a reasonable price...

I have no interest (or time, or space) to do home processing. Any thoughts?

[Frank Petronio]

I saw a complete Hasselblad HD1 set-up go for only $4K the other day ;-) Still the MFDBs leave so much to be desired....

I won't speak for him but Edgar Praus told me that as long as there is a demand, he will continue running. This is likely to be the case for other "healthy" labs that have stable businesses. So if the worst case happens and Kodak kills everything off tomorrow - and Fuji flakes - there is still at least a good year's supply of film and materials still in the pipeline.

When they shut down Kodachrome it wasn't like all these photographers were stuck with tons of unusable film.... Didn't Dwaynes keep processing for six months or more after the film became unavailable? Nor did they jack the prices.

What I wouldn't do is buy a five-year supply of color film, unless I also was set to do processing myself. I would simply savor the last year or so using it up and switch (back) to B&W after that. I'm going to buy another couple hundred sheets, not thousands.

Heck a couple of weeks ago Sal announced that 8x10 TXP wasn't going to be stocked anymore and while it is mostly sold out, it still took two weeks or more for the "hoarders" to deplete it. That doesn't speak to a really high demand for it after all.

Chances are that someone will make decent color negative for many years to come, I still think there is enough of a market for it to be viable. Although I doubt it will be as good as the current Portra 400 and nobody will match Kodak's quality control.

I have no doubt that decent B&W large format materials will remain available for at least another generation.

[Daniel Stone]

There are other companies who produce color chemistry btw:

http://cpacimaging.com/photomain.asp

My local photo center still keeps c41 chems for the occasional person ego comes in wanting to develop color neg film. Trebla (cpac) also makes e6 chemicals as well.

Dan

[Noah A]

I saw a complete Hasselblad HD1 set-up go for only $4K the other day ;-) Still the MFDBs leave so much to be desired....



Yeah. Don't get me wrong, I have tested several MFDB setups and I prefer the look of film. There's something about the imperfection and the subtle tonality that is attractive to me, and I like the process involved. But an MFDB and technical camera would be my only other option if film wasn't available.

I was formerly a B&W shooter, in my past life I did 35mm pj and street photography. But while I still play around with B&W from time to time, I've embraced the switch to color and I don't know if I'd want to go back to shooting B&W exclusively.

And yes, I'm not planning on buying thousands of sheets. I have around 700 which as I said should last a year or so (I have a busy year with two foreign trips that are part of a fellowship as well as a pretty big commissioned project). I was thinking of buying another 3-500 sheets at most.

Thanks for pointing out that source for chemistry, Daniel. I wasn't aware of cpac. But still, I wonder if labs that currently use Kodak will switch over or just shut down. Are you still using Samy's? Have you spoken with them about their future plans?

[John Rodriguez]

I use Light Waves in San Francisco, I'll ask them next time I stop in. I'm lucky enough to work a few blocks from both an E6/C41 lab and a B+W tray processing lab, and I think in the major markets you'll wind up with one lab that survives and winds up doing healthy business. I also think Fuji won't pass up the opportunity to have a monopoly on the processing chemical industry.

[Daniel Stone]

Thanks for pointing out that source for chemistry, Daniel. I wasn't aware of cpac. But still, I wonder if labs that currently use Kodak will switch over or just shut down. Are you still using Samy's? Have you spoken with them about their future plans?

Hi Noah,

I haven't used Samy's since the end of the 3rd quarter of last year. I was getting mottling problems on 8x10 E6 and C-41, sometimes the film would come back with bend marks. ONLY on 8x10 though, 4x5 (E-6 and C-41) had no problems. I have been shooting almost 100% E-6 through the winter, and have found a lab locally to me(40mi away) that is terrific. Not as cheap as Samy's price-wise, but its a small business, the owner/operator is a great person, and I know my film will be done correctly! That's the most important part IMO. Samy's is now doing all LF and E-6 processing in-house(except the Orange County store, which sends out to the same lab I've just mentioned, DATACHROME (http://data-chrome.com/index.html)). Turnaround is approx 2-3hrs, so I've been making 1 trip/month, and treat myself to In-N-Out while my films getting souped up :). I still have close to 400 sheets of 8x10 C-41 to shoot, but since I've fallen in love with chromes, I haven't loaded any color neg into my holders in the past 3mo.

In regards to your question about labs shutting their doors, I think that if WE(the customers) let them know about alternative chemistry sources(such as CPAC), then they have a better chance of keeping those independent companies offering those product lines into the future. E-6 isn't a "proprietary" process per se, many labs back in the day would scratch-mix E-6 and C-41 chemicals for 24hr round the clock processing lines, many of which WERE running 24/7/365 to meet demand. Times have certainly changed though.

The good news though, CPAC(Trebla) sells smaller quantities of chems, so its easier for home processors to mix up(vs the cubitainers designed for 25L/50L lab-size quantities).

I'm still happy I've "stockpiled" enough 8x10 and 4X5 E-6/C-41 color to last me a good while, but I don't shoot quickly enough to use it all up in a year, much less 3-4yrs or so. I also do not have the budget at this time to cover the processing costs immediately on all the film.

-Dan

[BrianShaw]

... and treat myself to In-N-Out while my films getting souped up :). ...

For anyone who hasn't met Dan before, this is proof positive that he is a good guy, has good taste, is fiscally responsible, and is tall and/or good looking. :)

[Drew Wiley]

I'm also using Lightwaves, and at the moment they're doing some 8x10 C-41 for me.
Life isn't risk free in any direction. For all I know there could be a world war in the next
decade or an ebola plague. But in terms of common-sense planning I'm one of those
persons packing several years worth of color neg sheet film in the freezer and banking
on the probability that it can be processed. I see no logical reason why someone
wouldn't be making color neg film in the future, at least enough to sustain a discrete
number of C41 stations. Whether or not I like the particular films available in the future is another story ... but that's why I've got the freezer for temporary insurance. In
terms of long-term risk, digital printing is probably even more insecure. High end scanner and software maintenance is itself endangered; and digital backs just aren't
capable of competing with real film yet. Someone at Fuji must be looking at all this
with interest. One less competitor might translate into long-term profit viability for the survivor. But all we can do now is wait and see.

[rdenney]

I have about a hundred sheets of Fujicolor 160C, which I have not yet tried. Now, it's beginning to look like that will be it for doing color negatives in large format for me.

I can find no Fuji negative film of any type in 4x5 in the U.S. I guess that's history now.

I'd be tempted to stock up on Ektar or even Portra, but for a company on the ropes they don't mind charging the highest prices. $24 for 10 sheets? I just can't afford enough stock to be worth the trouble. But I guess when it goes, that's it for color negatives in sheet film, whether or not C41 is available.

The hell of it is that it's easier to find C41 labs than E6 labs, and yet the only sheet film being sold by the last remaining financially solvent manufacturer is transparency stuff. Que?

I'm also fairly stocked up on Velvia, which I did because I figured I had no choice. But golly I get tired of running out of the -3EV reading mapping to Zone 0 and the +3EV reading mapping to Zone X.

Rick "who had not realized that Fuji had permanently stopped importing C41 sheet film into the U.S." Denney

[Drew Wiley]

What makes you think Fuji has "permanently" stopped anything in the US? They still
make color neg film and if there's a demand they can begin stocking it here again.
They also have plenty of R&D background and quality control if they need to fill the vacuum left behind by Kodak. But there's no sense of them rushing into anything. In
fact, with all of us panic buying and stockpiling our favorite films, there might be a short term decrease in demand. Fuji still has plenty of wiggle room, and nobody knows
at this point whether Kodak's own film production lines will land on their feet or not.
And there's always the possibility of someone importing film directly if Fuji USA is not
responsive. I remember back when everyone was screaming doom and gloom when
Oriental Seagull and Zone VI bromide papers both disappeared, then when Ilford got
in trouble, and how fine art printing was going to end forever. Just created a vacuum
for someone else to fill. Life goes on.

[meerkat]

The chemistry is out there. Fuji Hunt, Tetenal, Rollei, Photographers Formulary, etc.. Luckily C-41 isn't proprietary. You can do it yourself, too.

http://www.defocus.net/c41.html

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm

The bigger issue is your local lab. Whether or not they can stay open depends on other factors. My local lab has branched out to include other services and will process color film as long as people come through the door (it helps that there is a university and also a photography school in the same town.)

Even if your lab closes, you can always do mail order. As long as there is somebody using color negative film, there will be somebody around to process it.

[John Rodriguez]

Rick - http://www.eastcoastphoto.com/nav/itempage.asp?itemid=7978&trng=fgle

[Daniel Stone]

For anyone who hasn't met Dan before, this is proof positive that he is a good guy, has good taste, is fiscally responsible, and is tall and/or good looking. :)

Wow Brian, thanks for the vote of confidence :D! Fiscally responsible: if that means having stockpiled most of my last years earnings into 8x10 and 4x5 film, then I guess you're right ;). Tall: yup, 6'4". Good looking: depends on who you're talking too, I'm not having very good luck with the ladies unfortunately. No matter, I got my 8x10, so I'm in a happy relationship! I just need to give her some more love, feed her some more film, and buy her some shiny new Red-Dot Artars(better than diamonds!) to bling out with ;). If you can keep a secret... I got her a late Christmas gift, a 30" RDA. Make sure not to tell her if you see her, I want it to be a secret!

-Dan

[Jeff Dexheimer]

I have no interest (or time, or space) to do home processing. Any thoughts?I process color film at home in less time than it takes me to process B&W, in a bathroom smaller than many peoples closets.