question/musings on composition

[h2oman]

Bear with me, and I'll try to get to the point ASAP:

I am somewhat intrigued with images that contain some very small point of interest, that the viewer might not notice right away, but which looms large once spotted. Two examples that come to mind are these:

Brett Weston's "47th Street" (named by others?):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40045986@N00/3067167042/

Wynn Bullock's "The Limpet" (second from left, second row):

http://lumieregallery.net/artists_wp/Bullock_Estate_h/index_8.html


Now changing gears a bit; I recently became aware of the work of a painter named Clyfford Still. (He may become as famous as he'll ever be because of this: http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-woman-accused-damaging-30-million-painting-051057896.html )

Many of his paintings have broad swaths of several colors, but many also contain a small bit of some very different color, attracting your eye like the like the small objects in the above photos. See the small spot of blue in the second painting, and the bit of red in the third, here:

http://raggedclothcafe.com/2007/03/28/clyfford-still-by-sandy-donabed/

Many of the paintings also contain bits like this right on their edges. Just Google him under "Images" or check out the one in the above news article. Of course we all hear that it is bad to have something like that on the edge of our photos, drawing the eye out of the frome. However, it seems to work in his paintings (or perhaps only I think that?). Maybe because there is often also something larger to draw us back into the interior each time we are pulled to the edge.

So now I finally get to the point: does anyone know of examples of this in photography? That is, putting something of major interest on the edge of a photo, cutting it off partially or almost entirely? Have any of you tried this?

[Tom J McDonald]

Check out Arnold Newman's Stravinsky portrait.
http://www.alscotts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/stravinsky.jpg

[Nathan Potter]

Don't generally see this and can't quickly find an example. I generally would classify this sort of thing as a gimmick unless a clear connection is made between the artifact and the rest of the picture. There needs to be some sort of connection, however elusive.

Perhaps some of this technique I recall from Cartier Bresson where he employs his "moment in time" approach. A number of his images have events within the same images widely separated in space and sometimes virtually at the edge of the frame and even partly out of the frame giving the sensation of time gone by.

Interesting approach though.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[h2oman]

Thanks, Tom. I really like Stravinsky's music, and had never seen this portrait. I think it is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Nathan, I see where you are coming from, but I would question whether it would be any more contrived than the near-far compositions popular with wide lens owners. Well maybe that is just a gimmick too! :)

[Tom J McDonald]

h2oman, I just read that news article you included in your first post.
Imagine someone rubbing their buttocks and urinating on your work...

[ericpmoss]

h2oman, I just read that news article you included in your first post.
Imagine someone rubbing their buttocks and urinating on your work...

That's why my chosen medium is electrified barbed wire. :)

[Merg Ross]

So now I finally get to the point: does anyone know of examples of this in photography? That is, putting something of major interest on the edge of a photo, cutting it off partially or almost entirely? Have any of you tried this?

I can offer this, my "Freeway Portrait, 1967".

http://www.mergross.com/pictures/freeway_portrait.html

[John Flavell]

I've always thought the whole idea of art and composition, etc, was ideally a very selfish undertaking. A come from within sort of approach. Everyone else takes what they can out of it. Some even know it wasn't made for them.

I remember making a close-up picture of a leaf. Simple. Straightforward. Lots of texture, which I liked. I recall a guy leading a group of people looking at the picture and giving a very long, dry, draw-out explanation of the composition. And one person in the group said, "It's f@cking leaf," which made me smile.

The leader of the group announced the artist's presence (me) and asked what I felt, what I thought, what emotions were brought to the creation of the composition. I told him I had a cold that day and I saw a f@cking leaf.

[Kirk Gittings]

So now I finally get to the point: does anyone know of examples of this in photography? That is, putting something of major interest on the edge of a photo, cutting it off partially or almost entirely? Have any of you tried this?
I am not typically that adventurous but here is one successful example from my past. I usually call it "Passing Angel".
http://sitemanager.sitewelder.com/users/KirkGittings2359/images/KirkGittings2359674332.jpg

[Brian C. Miller]

h2oman, I just read that news article you included in your first post.
Imagine someone rubbing their buttocks and urinating on your work...


That's why my chosen medium is electrified barbed wire. :)

I'm going for photographic emulsion on straight razor blades attached to a heavy-duty drill amidst Jacob's ladders. Oh, yeah, and the sharks with freakin' lasers!

"What does, 'THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY,' mean?"

Oh, and there'll be a tiny blinking red light to catch your attention...

[atlcruiser]

Check out Michael A Smith. He revels in items filling the sides of his photos. In particular, check out his Chicago series and his Tuscanny work.

[Shen45]

Great topic for discussion and viewing. Thanks Merg and Kirk - excellent examples. The Stravinsky portrait is a very famous example. Anyone have anymore as these types of images are challenging images to view. To me they feel "unsettled" but I very much enjoy the pull to leave the frame and stay within it at the same time.

[Ken Lee]

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/LonePine.jpg
Winter Sunrise from Lone Pine
Ansel Adams, 1944

[Brian K]

Two of my very favorite images in this thread, Stravinsky and Winter Sunrise.

For me Winter Sunrise works because of the horse. I've seen better images of Whitney, more interesting skies, but the horse and that highlighting around it just makes this image so special.

I have an image," Sailboat, Surfer, Submarine" which is a bit cornball for me because it has a sunset in it. However I shot it because of the fortunate lineup of the sailboat and surfers with the Sun. That was a fortuitous arrangement in itself. But when I blew up the image I also discovered something previously un-noticed by me, a nuclear sub coming out of Pearl Harbor. This detail, near the horizon on the right side of the image is easily overlooked, especially on the internet sized images, and is still somewhat subtle on a print. But it seems to bring surprise and amusement to those that notice it. Prior to that most people assumed the addition of "submarine" to the title was a tongue in cheek joke, like that of a ocean scenic devoid of any apparent vessels being called "Submarine Races". I think people enjoy finding, to coin a gamer's term, "easter eggs" in an image.

The addition of this element well away from the center adds a bit of asymmetry to an otherwise very centric image.

[neil poulsen]

I can't find a copy on the internet, but there's an Edward Weston photograph of Tenaya Lake whose composition includes a log near the top of the photograph. While not obvious at first, the shape of the log duplicates a portion of the lake.

After studying the image for a moment, it occurred to me that this was the point of the photograph.

[Ken Lee]

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/boy.jpg
Marblehead, Massachusetts
Arca Swiss Discovery, 240mm Fujinon A
4x5 Kodak TMY, D-76


Here's something along these lines, from a few years back.

[h2oman]

Kirk and Merg,

Nice examples.

Brian,

I always wondered where the submarine was! I went back and found it, but it is sure hard to see on the web image, as you said.

[tgtaylor]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6629302451_9fe9d8bdd3_z.jpg

Top.

Why is it there? I thought it belonged.

Thomas

[sun of sand]

I think you're thinking more
hidden interest/secret garden
than asymmetrical balance

but I'd say it's difficult to "hide" something in a very symmetrical world

asymmetrical balance isn't that far from the rule of thirds

of course it isn't
because all composition is
is balance

no "gimmicks"
I'd say if you call it that you ought to put your camera in the closet
It's all gimmicks then

[Richard Mahoney]

So now I finally get to the point: does anyone know of examples of this in photography? That is, putting something of major interest on the edge of a photo, cutting it off partially or almost entirely? Have any of you tried this?

In general I find myself uncomfortable standing directly square of something and almost always find myself cutting things off. Here I was concentrating mostly on the space between the near two handles:

http://camera-antipodea.indica-et-buddhica.com/portfolios/portfolio-two/ashburton-flour-mill-reception/ashburton-flour-mill-reception.jpg



Best,

Richard

[r.e.]

This is neither new nor particularly uncommon. Here's a rather famous example from the 16th century, The Fall of Icarus: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Bruegel%2C_Pieter_de_Oude_-_De_val_van_icarus_-_hi_res.jpg

Here is William Carlos Williams's poem about it:

Landscape With The Fall of Icarus

According to Brueghel
when Icarus fell
it was spring

a farmer was ploughing
his field
the whole pageantry

of the year was
awake tingling
near

the edge of the sea
concerned
with itself

sweating in the sun
that melted
the wings' wax

unsignificantly
off the coast
there was

a splash quite unnoticed
this was
Icarus drowning


And here is Auden's poem:

Musée des Beaux Arts

About suffering they were never wrong,
The Old Masters; how well, they understood
Its human position; how it takes place
While someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dully along;
How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting
For the miraculous birth, there always must be
Children who did not specially want it to happen, skating
On a pond at the edge of the wood:
They never forgot
That even the dreadful martyrdom must run its course
Anyhow in a corner, some untidy spot
Where the dogs go on with their doggy life and the torturer's horse
Scratches its innocent behind on a tree.
In Breughel's Icarus, for instance: how everything turns away
Quite leisurely from the disaster; the ploughman may
Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,
But for him it was not an important failure; the sun shone
As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green
Water; and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen
Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,
had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly on.

[Kirk Gittings]

RE, Sorry maybe I am missing something, but how does that relate?

"That is, putting something of major interest on the edge of a photo, cutting it off partially or almost entirely? Have any of you tried this?"

[r.e.]

Kirk,

I think that this is about marginalized (for lack of a better word) parts of a composition that are important to a composition. To my mind, it doesn't matter whether the visual is partly cut off or not. Indeed, it is not cut off in some of the examples that have been offered above. The placement of the small figure of Icarus in the lower right corner of the painting achieves what is being discussed here, so much so that two poems by important writers were written about the painting and the placement of the figure. I think that The Fall of Icarus, whether Bruegel made it or whether it is a copy of one of his paintings (many think the latter), rewards careful study in the context of this discussion.

Just in case people aren't familiar with this painting and have trouble seeing where Icarus is in the image (it's clear enough when one sees the painting in person, but maybe less so on a computer screen), his legs, with torso under water, are in the lower right between the person in white and a ship. It's why WC Williams says "a splash quite unnoticed" and why Auden says "everything turns away/Quite leisurely from the disaster".

[John Koehrer]

Didn't you know Adams kept an inflatable horse in his vehicle for times like winter sunrise?

[sun of sand]

I'm thinking Kirk just missed the dude splashing into the water

which is great for the thread

a very good example


OP IS in my opinion talking about the "marginalization" of important aspects
I'm calling it secret garden


read between the lines a bit more

[r.e.]

I'm calling it secret garden

I like that.

It's necessary to really look at this painting to see what is going on. That's true of the original, and probably more true, given our propensity to look quickly, of a copy on a computer screen.

In the case of this painting, there are a number of things going on to deflect attention. To take an obvious example, the oversized treatment of the man with a plough. The composition isn't just about the placement of Icarus, and at that only his legs sticking out of the water, in the lower right corner.

I added the poems by Auden and Williams partly as a clue, but also to underscore the point that what Bruegel did in this painting 450 years ago got the attention of two of the great poets of the 20th century. And these are not minor poems. When I was 16, Auden's poem was required reading at school.

[Kirk Gittings]

I saw the "dude" splashing into the water. The Icarus reference was hard to miss. I just didn't think it fit the OP's original question (as with some other images posted).

[r.e.]

I just didn't think it fit the OP's original question (as with some other images posted).

You mean like the images posted by Ken Lee, your fellow moderator, and Merge Ross, and frankly in my view Newman's portrait, that you chose not to question?

I think that this is an interesting discussion and that it doesn't need to be straight jacketed by one phrase in the somewhat lengthy post that started the thread, especially since that post was itself ambiguous.

However, if it is a rule of this thread that the peripheral image has to be pasted to, and indeed truncated by, the edge of the frame, then you should of course enforce the rule and delete all of the posts that have violated it.

You can start with the posts about Bruegel's painting, which you apparently found less relevant, and I guess less interesting, than the other posts in this thread :)

P.S. Sorry, just having a little trouble understanding, given that I spent some time jumping around the internet to put that post together, why I am being given the gears over it. And by the way, congratulations, because your statement "The Icarus reference was hard to miss" is untrue for most people, even with the original.

[Kirk Gittings]

Get off your petty high horse. I didn't "choose" not to question those images-I had better things to do at the time. This place is not really a priority much of the time. If I spent my time here trying to correct every wrong or off subject post I would have to live here. No thanks. Nor did I delete your post so why on earth would I delete theirs? And where for heavens sake were you "given the gears". I asked you a simple question. Man you have a thin skin.

[r.e.]

Sorry Kirk,

The smilie was there for a reason.

To lighten this up a bit, you might get a smile from a video that I posted here earlier today: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=85569

[Kirk Gittings]

No problem I am fighting my third cold/flu since Dec 18th and not in a good humor.

[h2oman]

Yikes - I haven't been here for a few days, and look what happened! :(

I appreciate all the contributions, as they are all interesting to me. Yes, I was more after objects of interest partially cut off by the frame, but placement very near edges but not out of the frame are cool to see as well. :)

Merg's shot is interesting to me for both the window looker-outer down in the corner, but also the half-ladder on the left, which is definitely the kind of thing I was talking about.

Thanks again for everyone's interest. When looking at a scene I personally have a tendency to center objects of interest, and I am trying to open my mind to seeing things other ways, without resorting to common and more obvious arrangements like near-far, leading lines, S-curves, etc. Not to demean any of those, because I've seen them all used beautifully, but I'm just looking for something more unusual and striking.

Again, I may just be easily fooled, but I'm impressed by how balanced Still's paintings feel to me. He seems to do a lot of it by balancing small things of interest near edges with large, more uniform and less detailed swaths on the other side. Kind of like the effect of the piano lid with Stravinsky in that "landscape" portrait.

[r.e.]

Hi H2oman,

At this point, not sure what you are looking for. A search for the phrase "negative space" may be helpful.

I'm getting the sense that you may find it useful to look at portraits of part of a person's head, which have been fashionable for several years now. There are some on ths site, which I was looking at yesterday: http://www.brigittelacombe.com/index.php

[h2oman]

I tried that some time ago with fairly negative results (:D ), but I'll try again.

[Greg Miller]

Yikes - I haven't been here for a few days, and look what happened! :(

I appreciate all the contributions, as they are all interesting to me. Yes, I was more after objects of interest partially cut off by the frame, but placement very near edges but not out of the frame are cool to see as well. :)

Merg's shot is interesting to me for both the window looker-outer down in the corner, but also the half-ladder on the left, which is definitely the kind of thing I was talking about.

Thanks again for everyone's interest. When looking at a scene I personally have a tendency to center objects of interest, and I am trying to open my mind to seeing things other ways, without resorting to common and more obvious arrangements like near-far, leading lines, S-curves, etc. Not to demean any of those, because I've seen them all used beautifully, but I'm just looking for something more unusual and striking.

Again, I may just be easily fooled, but I'm impressed by how balanced Still's paintings feel to me. He seems to do a lot of it by balancing small things of interest near edges with large, more uniform and less detailed swaths on the other side. Kind of like the effect of the piano lid with Stravinsky in that "landscape" portrait.

A balanced composition tends to feel more calm, serene or tranquil. One thing that pushing key objects towards the edge can do is make for more tension - not necessarily a bad thing.

[Merg Ross]

Merg's shot is interesting to me for both the window looker-outer down in the corner, but also the half-ladder on the left, which is definitely the kind of thing I was talking about.

Thank you, I thought that was the kind of image you were seeking.

[Wayne Lambert]

As Greg noted, placing a prominent object, preferably small, at the edge of the frame can create tension and make the image more interesting. At one of his workshops Ansel Adams spent several minutes praising and demonstrating this compositional technique.
Wayne

[austin granger]

Here are two pictures that came to mind as I read the thread. The first one is a photo that I seem to like better than anyone else, but there's no accounting for taste, right? :) Anyway though, what I was trying to do here was give a sense of foreboding and claustrophobia, and draw attention to those two opposite corners, so that the "DO NOT ENTER" becomes not about the shrouded building but about that little escape hatch of sky at upper right. That weird little white patch up there is everything in this picture. Also, I like the way it looks like the photo itself is torn in the corner, or as if you could just peel everything else away.

Shrouded, Portland
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5229/5673476526_579c18f1b3_b.jpg

This next one is more of a hidden object of interest type photo. Though it'll be difficult to see on your computer, I think the large man hanging off the roof in the background really makes this.

Frankies Franks, 82nd Avenue, Portland
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5309/5767976509_f6163938ba_b.jpg


http://www.flickr.com/photos/austingranger/

[cowanw]

Your first example was what came to my mind, when I read this thread.
Often times, Hurrell and other Hollywood/fashion photographers would balance strong contrasts with a small break in tone outside the main part of the image, without which the image has much less impact.

[Merg Ross]

I appreciate all the contributions, as they are all interesting to me. Yes, I was more after objects of interest partially cut off by the frame, but placement very near edges but not out of the frame are cool to see as well. :)

Merg's shot is interesting to me for both the window looker-outer down in the corner, but also the half-ladder on the left, which is definitely the kind of thing I was talking about.

My friend Scott Nichols just sent me notice of his upcoming gallery exhibition featuring the work of Ralph Steiner. I think you will discover much of what you seek in Ralph's work.

Best,
Merg

http://www.scottnicholsgallery.com/exhibitions-2011/ralph-steiner-a-point-of-view/

[h2oman]

Yes, I like those, Merg. Many interesting compositions there!

[sun of sand]

I saw the "dude" splashing into the water. The Icarus reference was hard to miss. I just didn't think it fit the OP's original question (as with some other images posted).

unfortunately that's the worse of the two, Kirk

Of course IMO

failing to understand what the op was asking so much that you'd think the icarus or other examples given did not truly fit in with the thread because of the superficial
"the thread is about subjects literally cut off or directly on the edge" is pretty significant


not just for the thread
but for the site
not only in terms of aiding composition

If you miss it
how many others have/would have missed it

I think it's pretty important

[sun of sand]

Yikes - I haven't been here for a few days, and look what happened! :(

Yes, I was more after objects of interest partially cut off by the frame, but placement very near edges but not out of the frame are cool to see as well. :)



You're just confused, H2o
you are, in fact, asking for the "other" examples :)

How do you like that? lol

I'm quite sure you are, though
you gave these as examples in your own original post
cutting things off on the edges is really just a a pushing of the envelope from the "others" which itself is really just a pushing of the envelope from the rule of thirds which is just an aid- a simplification of compositional balance


it's clear you are asking about "asymmetrical balance"

you "cannot" cut something off or place near the edges or have "a secret garden" without balancing those on the opposite side

[h2oman]

You're just confused, H2o
you are, in fact, asking for the "other" examples :)

How do you like that? lol


I don't like it very well, SOS
and I'm not "loling"
you must have missed
the last paragraph of my initial post

I've been confused about many things in my life
I was not confused about what I was asking here
I stated my request quite clearly

and, in defense of Kirk
he knew EXACTLY what I wanted

I'm not particularly offended
it's just internet babble :D

keep those examples coming
what sos thinks I was asking for
or what I really was asking for :)

[Merg Ross]

I don't like it very well, SOS
and I'm not "loling"
you must have missed
the last paragraph of my initial post

I've been confused about many things in my life
I was not confused about what I was asking here
I stated my request quite clearly

and, in defense of Kirk
he knew EXACTLY what I wanted

I'm not particularly offended
it's just internet babble :D

keep those examples coming
what sos thinks I was asking for
or what I really was asking for :)



Hey, h2oman, were you familiar with the work of Ralph Steiner? One of my favorite photographers, somewhat overlooked these days.

[csant]

Stieglitz, Gossip - Katwyk.


http://www.aphotostudent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Gossip-Katwyk.AlfredStieglitz.jpg

[johnmsanderson]

couldn't help but think of these two images from Mr. Winston Link

http://www.artnet.com/artwork_images_117084_351734_owinston-link.jpg

http://www.artnet.com/artwork_images_117084_351695_owinston-link.jpg

The difference that lantern (which was actually one of the photographer's flashbulbs) makes is... something

[h2oman]

No Merg, I was not familiar with Steiner. I'm relatively new to the photo world, especially B&W. Thank you very much for calling him to my attention. In addition to the sort of image I asked about here, I also really liked the tall image with the tree in front of a building.

[sun of sand]

How do people misunderstand playful jokings and emoticons
low emotional intelligence, i suspect
:cool:
geez, dude

Now I'm kinda like :confused: :rolleyes:, though


It's unfortunate that you have missed your own first remarks on compositon to your first post regarding "secret gardens" or marginalized/minimalized subjects that are important to the photographs emotional content/meaning.. whateve

look at your first and second links, again
this is what you're truly asking about

the clyfford still cut off/edge stuff is just an extension of that scaling of human condition or however you'd say it properly


clyfford still
abstract expressionism
abstract composition
asymmetrical balance

that is what you are asking for
asymmetrical balance

it doesn't matter what the subject is or how far it's been pushed to the edge
it's all the same


Kirk was only just as confused





I don't like it very well, SOS
and I'm not "loling"
you must have missed
the last paragraph of my initial post

I've been confused about many things in my life
I was not confused about what I was asking here
I stated my request quite clearly

and, in defense of Kirk
he knew EXACTLY what I wanted

I'm not particularly offended
it's just internet babble

keep those examples coming
what sos thinks I was asking for
or what I really was asking for

[csant]

More, I want to see more images! There must be some essays on asymmetry in composition - mostly about paintings, I'd guess… Anybody able to name one worth to read?