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TheDeardorffGuy
5-Jan-2012, 16:23
I've been thinking this over and I'm not sure how to go about it. BUT we need a category for novices only. But then they need an experienced moderator and I would not want to be in that position at all without being paid large sums of money or film and paper. I was lucky. I used to work at a camera shop at age 16 and had great mentors. That just does not happen now a days. Maybe they can moderate themselves and build a Saturn rocket.

Ash
5-Jan-2012, 16:39
Tolerance would be an easier solution.

Mark Woods
5-Jan-2012, 16:51
For a model of this approach, go to

http://www.cinematography.net/

There are all sorts of categories and Geoff, who runs it with help of "list mums" doesn't let it stray off topic, and he's banned people who are nasty and not sociable.

Mark

Gem Singer
5-Jan-2012, 17:03
We don't need a separate category for novices on this forum.

With photo technology advancing at a rapid rate, all of us are all novices in some way, or another.

Photography has been both my vocation and advocation for over sixty years, and I still learn something new about it every day.

You learn quite a bit when you mentor novices on large format technique.

Mark Sawyer
5-Jan-2012, 17:10
Tolerance would be an easier solution.


We don't need a separate category for novices on this forum.

Agreed. I see novices asking for advice and receiving very good information here on a regular basis. This seems like a solution in search of a problem that isn't there.

Pawlowski6132
5-Jan-2012, 17:48
, and he's banned people who are nasty and not sociable.

Mark

If we did that, we'd only have a bout 8 guys left on this site.

BrianShaw
5-Jan-2012, 18:02
I'm not keen on that notion. Segregation isn't a nice thing.

ic-racer
5-Jan-2012, 20:10
With photo technology advancing at a rapid rate,...

???
I'm still spinning from the whirlwind introduction of instant developing color prints and t-grain B&W films, what is next....


Oops were lack of tolerance, nasty and non-sociable mentioned...:)

vinny
5-Jan-2012, 20:23
maybe there should be a search window that pops up before you're allowed to post. you must search google before asking a question that's been asked dozens of times. What do I do with my film after I shoot it?

Mark Woods
5-Jan-2012, 20:44
I just delete the "I'm a nooby" posts that ask the same questions over and over. I have no patience for questions that are already posted. I think there would be more than 8 members who are social and not nasty.

Mark "I'm not interested in answering questions that have already been asked" Woods

TheDeardorffGuy
5-Jan-2012, 21:30
Ok guys I spoke too soon. But for gosh sakes in the past few days there was a post about getting a screw out and a reply was to put the Sinar in the oven! And then there have been the usual "what camera should I buy?" Whew! I've had my first Deardorff since I was 15, I'm 57 now. I have used nearly every make and I still like my Deardorffs. But I know there are those who need milled metal cameras with scales. I did not mean to offend. It's been a long hard year.

photobymike
6-Jan-2012, 07:51
I've been thinking this over and I'm not sure how to go about it. BUT we need a category for novices only. But then they need an experienced moderator and I would not want to be in that position at all without being paid large sums of money or film and paper. I was lucky. I used to work at a camera shop at age 16 and had great mentors. That just does not happen now a days. Maybe they can moderate themselves and build a Saturn rocket.

i used to be a novice..... maybe i still am.... or maybe i am a wannabe

i used to teach photography in college. ... Some of the most amazing photographs came from the students i taught. I learned what film reticulation was. (never had seen it before). or under fixed negs look like when you print them. how about watching a print solarize while viewing in a mat... that was a trip! put a viewing light on the print in front of the class and watched it go black.....

Your Photography is the summation of your experience, wisdom, intellect, and this is important "What other people photograph and say". Thats why LF is a invaluable asset to a beginning picture taker.

Novice not for long!!! give me a week and i can make a pro.

just my humble opinion
Michael Green

Bob Salomon
6-Jan-2012, 07:57
Novice what?
I frequently get questions from highly experienced large format photographers who are complete novices when it comes to an Imagon or a large format macro lens or a large format digital lens and the differences between the types of digital lenses.
Or the differences in controls between an analog view camera and a digital view camera.

So you want to take a large format worker with dozens of years of LF experience and put him in a novice group because he is looking at a different type of lens or camera?

Chances are pretty good that everyone here can qualify as a novice in one area of photography or equipment once they get out of their comfort and familiarty zone.

BrianShaw
6-Jan-2012, 08:23
Mark "I'm not interested in answering questions that have already been asked" Woods

Ha... not making fun of you or anything... but I chuckle at the number of times there are multiple "experts" all repeating the same thing. Why is it that a post with a simple question like, "what is the maximum aperture of a f/5.6 lens?" often answered... and then followed by 67 other "experts" (approximated number, not intended to represent any particular thread) all repeating the same thing... or expanding the question into a discussion of physics and/or bokeh? :rolleyes:

dasBlute
6-Jan-2012, 09:12
Without us 'novices' and the welcome we receive, this site -and this field- could wither. Be gentle on us 'newbies', we're the future [and I'm almost 50 but only 7 years into LF]. Anyone bull-headed enough to even attempt LF should be welcomed and nurtured, even throughout the weaning period, and who hasn't gone through the 'which camera/lens/tripod/film/etc' phase?

This tension between the 'elite' and the 'noob' is ripe for growth on both sides. Next time you explain the circle-of-confusion or the depth-of-focus to someone, remember to thank the person who taught you [or wrote the book you learned it from], many LF concepts are obscure.

atlcruiser
6-Jan-2012, 09:35
Not much is better than a self-proclaimed expert!

E. von Hoegh
6-Jan-2012, 10:25
"Ok guys I spoke too soon. But for gosh sakes in the past few days there was a post about getting a screw out and a reply was to put the Sinar in the oven! "

Would you use the same kind of oven for a Sinar as you would for a Linhof?

Whomever gave that advice has perhaps had his head in one too many ovens.

photobymike
6-Jan-2012, 10:31
WOW off track maybe..... yes heating up (100 or 120 degrees) (not bellows or lens) dissimilar metals would help in removing a screw...... duh expansion .... used this trick a few times myself.

Bob Salomon
6-Jan-2012, 10:33
"Ok guys I spoke too soon. But for gosh sakes in the past few days there was a post about getting a screw out and a reply was to put the Sinar in the oven! "

Would you use the same kind of oven for a Sinar as you would for a Linhof?

Microwave only for non-Sinar brands.

E. von Hoegh
6-Jan-2012, 10:34
WOW off track maybe..... yes heating up (not bellows or lens) dissimilar metals would help in removing a screw...... duh expansion ....

Yeah. So bake the whole camera. Duh indeed.

Kirk Gittings
6-Jan-2012, 10:44
"Ok guys I spoke too soon. But for gosh sakes in the past few days there was a post about getting a screw out and a reply was to put the Sinar in the oven! "

Would you use the same kind of oven for a Sinar as you would for a Linhof?

or to roast the turkey :)

Frank Petronio
6-Jan-2012, 11:09
A better search function would make it easier for everybody, especially novices.

You could just have canned answers ready to cut and paste too, I haven't written anything new in years.

Kevin Crisp
6-Jan-2012, 11:29
1. I was wondering how to convert a Symmar lens, do you use the single element on the front or the back? One guy told me.......

2. I found that my lens won't install flat on the lens board. There is this little tiny screw.....

3. Do any of you use Jobo drums?

4. Can I use a DSLR as a light meter?

I think I've got the top four questions covered.

Ari
6-Jan-2012, 11:33
We were all noobs, and as someone pointed out, many of us are still learning, myself included.
I'd be up a tree (LF-wise) were it not for the kindness of people on this forum.

That said, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if people learned to use the search function more often.

Jay DeFehr
6-Jan-2012, 11:35
I don't think any of us are required to respond to any posts, so what's the big deal? If you see a question you don't feel like responding to, then don't. How difficult is that? Most questions asked here fall into that category for me, and it doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the forum. Occasionally someone wants to personalize this community to suit his tastes-- no talk of politics, religion, digital, pyro, various formats, workflows, etc., and when the owners are sufficiently moved by the arguments, or the arguers, changes are made that narrow the scope of permissible topics. Given the relatively small number of active participants, I think this is a self defeating strategy, but I see both sides of the issue, most of the time. Segregating "novices", however is a terrible idea, and an unworkable one, and it only takes the slightest mental effort to see why. Who decides who is a novice, and on what basis? That alone should be sufficient to dissuade anyone from the idea, and following that thread of inquiry leads to a multiplicity of problems.

Tolerance, patience, and simply passing over what doesn't interest is a far better strategy.

ic-racer
6-Jan-2012, 11:36
1. I was wondering how to convert a Symmar lens, do you use the single element on the front or the back? One guy told me.......

2. I found that my lens won't install flat on the lens board. There is this little tiny screw.....

3. Do any of you use Jobo drums?

4. Can I use a DSLR as a light meter?

I think I've got the top four questions covered.


My top ones are:

"Noob question about exposure..."

"Noob question about focus..."

"Noob question about sharpness...."

"Noob question about fungus/separation of lens..."

"Noob question about aperture scale on shutter..."

"Noob question, what size lensboard hole for X shutter..."

"Noob question, lens in front of me, how big is front element..."

"Noob question, lens in front of me, how much does it weight..."

"Noob question, camera in front of me, how much extension/rise/swing/tilt..."

"Noob question, camera in front of me, minimum extension..."

"Noob question, is LF better than digital..."

"Noob question, spots on prints when I scan..."

"Noob question, uneven development with..."

"Noob question, printing time too short..."

"Noob question, printing time too long..."

"Noob question, can I use my 50mm lens for enlarging 4x5 on my xxx6x9 enlarger..."

"Noob question, plug on enlarger won't fit wall socket..."

"Noob, 'I'm just starting LF...'"

"Noob, 'I'm giving up LF...'"

However, it you got rid of all those posts, there would be nothing to post about. Plus, the search engine on these forums is terrible.

BrianShaw
6-Jan-2012, 11:37
I often draw the line at responding if I see a post count < 5. Those tend to be folks who pop in to get and answer and often pop out without even saying thanks. That in my mind is way worse that any question from a noob who really wants to learn and participate.

Frank Petronio
6-Jan-2012, 11:37
Lately I've been telling them to just get the damn Ebony, the XL lenses, and that their pictures will suck unless they get a $1000 tripod.

BrianShaw
6-Jan-2012, 11:38
"How much is xyz worth?"

"How much should I pay for xyz?"

Kirk Gittings
6-Jan-2012, 11:43
I think Bob had it right. Many of us are experts in some areas and total novices in others. That is certainly true for me. Seriously, who would make that kind of distinction and have the inclination to enforce it? I've been doing this 40 years and can't imagine making those kind of distinctions in terms of moderation.

We could possibly make a Newbie sub-forum, but it would have to be totally a voluntary place to post. So whats the point?


Novice what?
I frequently get questions from highly experienced large format photographers who are complete novices when it comes to an Imagon or a large format macro lens or a large format digital lens and the differences between the types of digital lenses.
Or the differences in controls between an analog view camera and a digital view camera.

So you want to take a large format worker with dozens of years of LF experience and put him in a novice group because he is looking at a different type of lens or camera?

Chances are pretty good that everyone here can qualify as a novice in one area of photography or equipment once they get out of their comfort and familiarty zone.

photobymike
6-Jan-2012, 12:01
I am going to the local park and practice for my advanced "Noob" status... its 74 degrees and the sun is shinning.

Take some pictures!!! its what we all do best LOL

BrianShaw
6-Jan-2012, 12:03
I am going to the local park and practice for my advanced "Noob" status... its 74 degrees and the sun is shinning.

Take some pictures!!! its what we all do best LOL

Big deal. We're at those temps (maybe even warmer right now), have low humidity, and big surf!

Greg Miller
6-Jan-2012, 12:05
Everyone, even an expert, was a novice at some point in time. Seems like the right thing to do is for experts to pay back the favor by mentoring current novices. Sure, it may be a pain at times, but the rewards should exceed any drawbacks.

jb7
6-Jan-2012, 12:34
I often draw the line at responding if I see a post count < 5. Those tend to be folks who pop in to get and answer and often pop out without even saying thanks. That in my mind is way worse that any question from a noob who really wants to learn and participate.

Poor etiquette is not confined to those with low post counts-

BrianShaw
6-Jan-2012, 12:44
Poor etiquette is not confined to those with low post counts-

You are correct. Than you very much for that comment.

TheDeardorffGuy
6-Jan-2012, 16:43
Thats my point Frank. I have not written anything new either. It is the same old questions.
Q. How do I treat my leather bellows? A. I do not know. I treat mine with love and mink oil, Perhaps a piece of candy..................



A better search function would make it easier for everybody, especially novices.

You could just have canned answers ready to cut and paste too, I haven't written anything new in years.

Kevin Crisp
6-Jan-2012, 17:39
The site does have a "frequently asked questions" feature. But, to take my earlier example, if you put in the phrase "convertible lens," you get no hits.

John NYC
6-Jan-2012, 17:51
I've been around here (lurking before I joined) for almost three years. I guess that makes me a newbie.

Word of caution: If you scare off the newbie, this forum will decline further. For my money, I would rather have more people joining into LF than fewer.

Some of LF experts here are very helpful, and I am extremely grateful to them for their help. For months before I joined I searched and read and read. So much so that the FIRST 4x5 shot I took came out well-exposed, perfectly in focus (even with tilt/swing movements). That is the power of the collective knowledge of this forum, should a newbie use it wisely.

For what it is worth, I will point out that being annoying isn't limited to newbies. There are more than a few experienced folks who are unhelpful/annoying in numerous ways:

- Arrogance/dismissiveness (usually that goes beyond their picture making ability, and always beyond their stature in the world)
- Ranting off the topic ad nauseum (I rarely see newbies to LF engage in multiple page off-topic rants).
- Answering newbie posts with purposefully convoluted opinions or presenting very advanced options that end up confusing them more than helping them
- Having a very evident limited understanding or education of the modern arts in general (not limited to just photography) while pontificating on how bad x or y modern artist/photographer is

I'll stop there, but you get the idea: newbies do not hold a monopoly on being annoying.

John NYC
6-Jan-2012, 17:55
And by the way, why in the world is this post in the "Cameras & Camera Accessories" forum?

BrianShaw
6-Jan-2012, 18:18
Perhaps because more novice questions are asked about Cameras and Camera Accessories than all other categories combined.

Gary Tarbert
7-Jan-2012, 04:21
I may be off the mark but if you had a newbie only section woudn't only newbies click on that forum , Meaning they are not getting the advice they need , Just my two cents. Cheers Gary

Robert Jonathan
7-Jan-2012, 05:20
But I know there are those who need milled metal cameras with scales.

Yup, that's me!

Bob Salomon is right. Everybody is a novice in some area.

Some of you old farts think that digital lenses require batteries. :)

polyglot
7-Jan-2012, 05:40
I agree with the idea that being condescending and exclusive is never a good idea. LFPF has a good FAQ but it could always be better.

If you're sick of seeing the same questions come up repeatedly (to the point where you can list them!) then I suggest you should write a clear concise article for each of those questions and submit the to The Powers That Be for inclusion in the FAQ. Then you can link to them later.

I started a FAQ (see my sig) for APUG but have no desire to go duplicating the LF FAQ/articles; quite apart from me being an LF noob.

Jim Michael
7-Jan-2012, 07:12
Great suggestion polyglot. Those articles on the front page are excellent.

For the number of folks who post questions to which you object, you don't really know how many others read the archives and glean something useful. Sometimes people get overwhelmed by search results when a search term returns so many hits the signal to noise ratio is too low, often due to limitations in a search engine (e.g. can't search for concatenated strings). So if it really bothers you, try to ignore those questions. Otherwise pay it forward and hope someone answers your question in a forum on another subject you know less about.