Pyrocat versus PMK Pyro ?

[Ken Lee]

Has anyone compared these two different versions of Pyro developer ?

According to Sandy King's article, the formulas are different: Pyrocatechin versus Pryogallol. I am wondering if others have found the same differences that Mr. King has suggested. Illustrative photos would be very helpful, but any insights would be greatly appreciated.

I scan my negatives.

[Jim Galli]

Hi Ken. I was so impressed with Sandy's article and had been fighting stain troubles with PMK especially in jobo 2500 tanks that I ordered the chems and mixed up a batch. Grain structure is super fine. Like PMK was. The big difference is that the stain is 100% in the silver areas. No FB + fog stain AT ALL. The negs look more like traditional PQ MQ developed negs with almost no color cast at all. Brownish though. Don't know how the different color will affect enlargements as I always kind of counted on the yellow green to offset contrast in my highlights before. The picture included was done with the 7X11 back on my Deardorff during Per Volquartz' recent Mt. Shasta workshop. Middle falls on the McCloud river. BTW this was done on Photo Warehouses 125ASA film that they special cut to the 7X11 format. Nice film. I'm enthused about the Pyrocat HD. My times tend to be running longer than what Sandy spec'd in his article.

[Bill_1856]

Well, Jim, it must have been beautiful there, but you've clearly got some burned out highlights. I thought PMK was supposed to prevent this. Is that the difference with Pyrocat?

[Linas Kudzma]

The secret is really out now! I have yet to hear anyone say anything negative about Pyrocat-HD. It's ideal for my Pd/Pt work because the brownish stain adds strong UV density with minimal base fog. Best of all, no uneven development or streaking, which would often happen to me with PMK and/or Rollo pyro. Catechol has replaced pyrogallol in my darkroom.

[Jim Galli]

Photographers call in this case Bill. The falls and lower walls were in shade and the upper area where the trees are was in direct sunlight. I allowed those areas to go high so I could have the seperation I wanted in the main part of the pic. I don't think PMK would have handled that much different but I'm still getting my feet wet with the new developer.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Bill, you cant judge the "burned" out highlights from a scan. I am willing to bet the print has detail in the highlights, it is just not visible in the monitor.

I used PMK for some time but have found Pyrocat HD to be better for my purposes. Specially for alt printing. I did not do as careful a comparison as Sandy but my empirical observations support what Sandy documents in his article.

Nice shot Jim, I dont know what paper did you use to print this, but if it was azo, you might find that the negative will work just as well in pt/pd. If it is on a "regular" silver paper, you can still print it in pd/pt if you add some sodium platinate as contrasting agent. BTW, I hope you have gotten away from the evil #2 solution and are using pot dichromate contrasting agent in the developer.

[Michael A.Smith]

If you printed this on Azo, you would not have burned out highlights nor blocked up shadows (those on the right next to the water). Azo paper (as will platinum). will easily handle an enormous range of tones--a range that no enlarging paper can accomodate. You can expose for the deep shadows, as you did, and you will still get your highlights in.

In looking at many photographer's work, to date, I have only seen one negative that could not easily be printed with highlight detail on Azo.

Pyrocat is used specifically to hold that highlight detail. I bet you do have it on the negative, but that you are just not getting it in the print.

[Ben Calwell]

Hi Jim,

Pay no attention to the criticisms. It's a beautiful photograph and probably looks even better in person than on the computer screen. On my screen, I see a slight sense of texture in the high values and in the dark areas. Keep up the good work.

[Andrew_3677]

I've just been trying Sandy's recipe and finding that the general stain is way down over my pyro negs, just image stain. I'm a convert. Thanks again to Sandy for all his hard work and great articles.

[Michael Kadillak]

Sandy's article is the most researched, well written and dimensional work to date on pyro developers and kudos are due to him for his hard work. That aside, Pyrocat deserves a hard look as very likely the best all around pyro choice for guys like me that desire to explore the alternative processes as well as good old silver. I am greatly pleased with the results.

By the way, anybody want a great deal on some unused PMK and the Book of Pyro?

Cheers!

[jerry brodkey]

Beautoful picture Jim !!! Do you have access to a densitometer that reads UV like a 361T? Everyone would really like to know the density range of your negative, I'm sure....

[sanking]

Jim,

In looking at the scan of your print I do have the same impression as Michael, i.e. that it would print well with processes that have a longer exposure scale such as AZO or Pt/Pd. This suggests that the density range is too high for regular silver printing, which in turn would mean that you developed the negative too long.

And then I look back at what you said earlier, "My times tend to be running longer than what Sandy spec'd in his article." It could be that the look of Pyrocat-HD negatives is so different from your PMK negatives that you have not yet learned to evaluate their effective printing contrast by visual inspection?

[Bruce Watson]

Ken, Sandy, somebody: which article? URL?

[Jim Galli]

Jerald, no desitometer. OK a mid '80's Macbeth TR 924 that hasn't been dusted off in a while. Sandy I think you're probably right. I've had VERY little quality time to evaluate this new-to-me process. In fact it's frustrating to have over 60 negs waiting in holders in the refrigerater and no time to process. Or print. Yes my first reaction is that the negs are visually thin in comparison to the PMK negs.

[Jim Galli]

Hogarth, It's here. (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html)

[Ken Lee]

I have also just found this article by Ed Buffaloe at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat/pyrocat.html (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat/pyrocat.html" target= "_blank)



On the second page,located at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat2/pyrocat2.html (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat2/pyrocat2.html" target = "_blank) he displays some pinhole images made with identical film and printing procedure: the only significant difference being the use of these two "flavors" of Pyro.

[Ken Lee]

There is also some relevant discussion in the Azo Forum.



Go here (http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/startframe.html" target="_blank) , then click on "Azo", then "Azo Forum", then "Developing Film".

[Francis Abad]

Dont delude yourselves completely! Although I agree that Pyrocat HD is a fantastic developer IT IS NOT THE BEST for SBRs greater than 10. It is unable to keep developing times over 5 mins for such SBRs. Watch out for those highlights if you want detail in them. Use another developer (e.g. PF TFX-2 or similar) if the range between shadow and highlight detail is greater than N-2.

[Frank Filippone]

As a subset of this question, how is Pyrocat with a JOBO processor? Does it require a 2 bath development ( oxidation/exhaustion issue) or is OK with a single development step?

[clay harmon]

IME, pyrocat is the BEST staining developer for jobo use, without the finicky tricks needed to get good results with PMK or Rollo. Just use the slowest rotation speed (below even "F"), plenty of solution, and if you are using print drums for negative processing (a non-jobo-usa-sanctioned use), take the drum off every couple of minutes and give it a seesaw, back and forth motion to make sure everything is nice and even.

[Michael Kadillak]

Clay

A simple question. How can JOBO USA sell plastic sheet inserts for ULF sheet film processing (11x14 and 12x20) in the 3062 and 3063 print drums with a warranty and avoid "sanctioned" use. I was told that they have been doing it for over seven years with no complaints from the users. Seems that they are contradicting themselves in they either are in or out of the game.

Or maybe you are talking about just the drum by itself that they do not recommend using. Just trying to qualifying your comments. My thanks.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Michael,

Clay is talking about the drum by itself. The reason that the Expert drum is not commonly used with the film insert is the cost, and also the fact that it will only hold one sheet at a time. If you are going to do a single sheet at a time, you might as well do it by tray process.

If you are careful with the large sheets in a normal 2800 series print drum, you can get excellent large negatives out with no streaking, and two at a time. But as Clay mentions, you have to be careful of the center area, wher that may be a bit of a developing variation if the drum is not 'sloshed' back and fourth every once and a while. Occasionally, a sheet may get worked out of the grooves, which will end up runinig one of the sheets, although probably not both.

I have been using Pyrocat for awhile in a Jobo drum, and now in a Jobo Expert 3005 drum, and it is able to produce excellent negatives with a very reasonable B+F level, which makes it great for alternative process work.

---Michael

[clay harmon]

Michael is right. What I mean is that if you call Jobo with about problems with uneven *film* developing when using the print drums, they will just tell you that they are intended to be used for prints, and point you toward their inserts that Michael is referring to. The inserts do apparently solve the problem, at the expense of losing the ability to do two sheets at a time. The sloshing back and forth fix I mentioned is a poor man's approach to solving the problem. FWIW, the occasionally streaking with the print drums is not just a problem with staining developers. Even good old D-76 1:1 can give you 'bromide drag' streaks on your negatives if you don't do this. I've got a few negatives to prove it!

[Michael Mutmansky]

Clay mentions thet the problem occurs with other developers. This is very true. I also have some that are not staining developed, and they show the unevenness.

Simply pulling the tube off the machine and rocking it back and fourth while rotating eliminates it for me. I do it for about 20 seconds every 2 minutes.

I no longer use the Jobo machine for the processing because of this. I now use a basic Besseler print roller base to spin the drums. Works like a charm, and also at a slower speed than the Jobo, which helps keep down aerial oxidation of the developer.

---Michael

[Ken Lee]

I got some PyroCat and tried out some TMAX 400 and my my 20-foot air release bulb. Looks right at a film speed of around 250. I'm delighted with the results. In direct noon sunlight with no clouds, all the values held nicely. Note the white porcelain tea kettle, white painted house trim, and both sides of my dark cloth - all rendered nicely with room to spare. My hat's off to Sandy King.



In Photoshop, I added a little emphasis to the Blue Channel, since the brown stain, when reversed, becomes blue. I believe this emulates the staining effect one would get if printing chemically.



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