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toprock03
28-Dec-2011, 20:11
ok - sorry for the entry level question. i am brand new to film and LF

I have a copal 1 210mm sinaron s 5.4 lens.

i am looking for something wide - i think around a 90mm. if i buy something that is a different copal are the lenses interchangeable? I think i'll need a new lens board, but aside from that can i swap them out without adjusting?

thanks so much in advance

Ari
28-Dec-2011, 20:14
No; Copal 1 is the shutter size (there's 00, 0, 1 and 3).
If you want to swap lenses, best to try with lenses from the same size shutter, but that's no guarantee either, as spacing varies from lens to lens.

toprock03
28-Dec-2011, 20:16
No; Copal 1 is the shutter size (there's 00, 0, 1 and 3).
If you want to swap lenses, best to try with lenses from the same size shutter, but that's no guarantee either, as spacing varies from lens to lens.

Thanks for the quick reply -

i assume most sell the lenses with the shutter correct? if that is the case what is the advantage to staying with a certain copal? do most keep them in their own lens board so they can just swap them out?

So if im looking for a 90mm lens do you recommend staying with copal 1?


thanks again

Kevin Crisp
28-Dec-2011, 20:40
There is no advantage really to staying with a certain shutter size. Copal 0, 1 and 3 are shutter sizes of copal shutters. Compur shutters also come in those sizes, and more. Generally if you have a 210 mm lens mounted in a shutter, you leave it in the shutter, and your wide angle next lens will have its own shutter. Could be a copal 0, could be a copal 1; it doesn't matter. But you need a lens board to fit it, unless the two lenses have the same size shutter and you don't mind taking one lens off the board and putting the other on. Since lens boards are cheap, get a second board so you can quickly swap out lenses.

Far more modern lenses are sold in shutters than not, vintage lenses not so much.

If you start putting elements of a 90mm lens in the same shutter you use for the 210mm, your aperture scale will definitely be off and there may be very thin spacers that you may lose when swapping out lenses into just one shutter.

Hope this answers your questions.

BrianShaw
28-Dec-2011, 20:42
Generally (most of the time, with great exception) each lens will have its own shutter, and each lens & shutter will have their own board. It is just too hard to attempt economy by swapping out these parts.

90mm lens will generally have a smaller shutter, like a Copal or Compur 0.

Dan Fromm
28-Dec-2011, 20:56
No; Copal 1 is the shutter size (there's 00, 0, 1 and 3).
If you want to swap lenses, best to try with lenses from the same size shutter, but that's no guarantee either, as spacing varies from lens to lens.

Are you sure? I thought that lenses' mechanical designs conform to the shutter standards.

Dan Fromm
28-Dec-2011, 21:00
if i buy something that is a different copal are the lenses interchangeable? I think i'll need a new lens board, but aside from that can i swap them out without adjusting?

Not without considerable expense. Look here http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals for the specifications.

The general rule is one lens, one shutter. The big exception, and it makes no sense for you, is lenses in barrel mounted in front of a shutter. In that situation, one shutter, many lenses gives the best economics.

Cor
29-Dec-2011, 01:37
Lenses and shutters can sometimes be swapped. The important thing is that the overall length of the lens stays exactly the same. Say you have a barrel mounted 240 mm G-Claron, it will fit directly into a Copal 1, or as I did in one of these MP4 Polaroid shutters: the overall length was exactly the same. One caveat though is the exact position of the aperture, it seems to be at a slightly different position in a Polaroid Copal versus a standard Copal.

Lens gurus can chim in, but I never noticed a difference, but I only contact print my 8*10 negatives..oh and I have re mounted a older 150 Symmar from a old Compur to a Polaroid Copal Press for 4*5, and did not notice sharpness issues in enlarging 4*5 negatives which could be traced back to the shutter.

Oh and you have to re-calibrate the aperture plate.

Best,

Cor

Dan Fromm
29-Dec-2011, 02:49
Say you have a barrel mounted 240 mm G-Claron, it will fit directly into a Copal 1, or as I did in one of these MP4 Polaroid shutters: the overall length was exactly the same.

Interesting. But the MP-4 shutter has no diaphragm, so isn't very useful.


One caveat though is the exact position of the aperture, it seems to be at a slightly different position in a Polaroid Copal versus a standard Copal.


Look here http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters at Press and cock-and-shoot shutters. The diaphragm is located closer to the back of the barrel in all Press shutters, including Prontor Press shutters, than in the same size cock-and-shoot shutter. This can be a problem when trying to use a Press shutter with a lens whose rear cell goes deep into the shutter.

You didn't mention that the barrel of the Copal Press shutters Polaroid sold with Tominon lenses in them for, e.g., the Polaroid CU-5 is longer than standard.

tlitody
29-Dec-2011, 03:07
When you are out in the field it simply isn't practical to start moving lenses between shutters and lens boards.
Mostly people have a lens pre-mounted on a shutter which is pre-mounted in a lens board so that changing lenses means changing lens, shutter and lensboard combined.

Note that lens boards are cut for a specific shutter size, so if you have a lens with a copal 1 shutter then you must have a lens board with a copal 1 size hole cut in it. You can't swap shutters between lensboards of the wrong size hole.

The size of shutter varies because of the requirements of lens aperture size so the longer the lens focal length and the wider the max aperture of the lens, the bigger the shutter size tends to be.

Cor
29-Dec-2011, 04:26
I knew one of the lens gurus was going to correct me, :) but you are right off course, it's the shutter from a CU-5 Polaroid I was referring to (I indeed have lens front mounted on a MP-4 shutter, a 300mm Ronar, which has it's own aperture, but needed an adapter ring). All the lenses I have remounted (3 or 4 of them) had the same length ie the length in the old shutter or barrel was the same in the Copal Polaroid shutter, none of these lenses (mostly Symmar and G-Clarons) have deep rear cells

(unlike the 165mm Angulon in an old dial set Compur shutter, it came to me shimmed with a piece of paper, removing that paper causes the aperture blades touch the rear element, with the paper shims it has the correct height according to the old Schneider brochures, contact printing 8*10 film of shots made with this old lens show no sharpness issues..)

Best,

Cor


Interesting. But the MP-4 shutter has no diaphragm, so isn't very useful.



Look here http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters at Press and cock-and-shoot shutters. The diaphragm is located closer to the back of the barrel in all Press shutters, including Prontor Press shutters, than in the same size cock-and-shoot shutter. This can be a problem when trying to use a Press shutter with a lens whose rear cell goes deep into the shutter.

You didn't mention that the barrel of the Copal Press shutters Polaroid sold with Tominon lenses in them for, e.g., the Polaroid CU-5 is longer than standard.

rdenney
29-Dec-2011, 07:08
Are you sure? I thought that lenses' mechanical designs conform to the shutter standards.

But they are sometimes optimized with shim spacers, though I've only seen spacers in one of my lenses (and don't remember which one, now).

Another point is that there is more to the shutter than just the front and rear cell threads and spacing. I've reported in another thread that I have several lenses designed to fit a Compur #00 shutter that will not fit a Prontor Press #00 shutter, and not because of the location of the aperture or shutter blades. The lens makers sometimes have little decorative elements that assume a shutter shape that is not part of the thread standards. That is true at the very least with my 70's-era 47/5.6 Super Angulon and my 50's-era 65/8 SA, both of which require the flat front of the Compur and foul the body of the Prontor, which has too small a recess down to the threads (I am prepared to believe the Prontor is really a #0 shutter modified to fit some #00 cells). The 121/8 Super Angulon is a different issue--it was designed for a special shutter--it's a No. 0 on the inside but has larger threads for cell mounting and board mounting, presumably because of the bulk and weight of the lens. For a while I mistakenly thought it was the elusive No. 2 shutter because of the size of the hole required in the board (about two inches), but I was corrected on this forum.

To the OP: Of course, this is probably not relevant to your Sinaron-S, which is really a Rodenstock APO-Sironar-N. I also have a 210 Sinaron-S mounted in a Copal No. 1 shutter, and it had no shims in it. I guess I can't guarantee that the lens came in that shutter--sometimes, the Sinaron lenses are not in a shutter, because they were mounted in a DBM board for use with the Sinar camera-mounted behind-the-lens shutter. Without the Sinar shutter, the DBM lenses are not that useful, unless you can find a regular shutter to put them in. Sinar sold them both ways.

As others have said, it is not in practice useful to switch lens cells between shutters routinely. Aside from any shimming or fitment issues, it exposes the shutter blades to dirt and other contamination. Also, the glass facing the shutter on many lenses is quite exposed and vulnerable.

Rick "the good thing about standards is that there are so many of them" Denney

Dan Fromm
29-Dec-2011, 08:29
Now that you mention it, Rick, some cells won't seat properly in a #0 dial set Prontor press because they hit the dial before they're properly seated. Is that what you meant?

I have a couple of small lenses -- 90/6.8 Beryl, 47/5.6 SA -- in rim set #00 Prontor Press. The SA came from the factory in one.

Dan "there are, alas, exceptions to many rules" Fromm

Leigh
29-Dec-2011, 08:47
Are you sure? I thought that lenses' mechanical designs conform to the shutter standards.
All manufactured products and components conform to dimensional tolerances.

Sometimes the accumulated tolerances cancel and you get an assembly that's close to nominal.
Other times they all go in one direction or the other, thus increasing the error.

Modern computer-controlled machines enables components with much tighter tolerances to be made at reasonable cost.
This eliminates the hand-fitting that was required for lenses made using manual equipment.

- Leigh

rdenney
29-Dec-2011, 09:12
Now that you mention it, Rick, some cells won't seat properly in a #0 dial set Prontor press because they hit the dial before they're properly seated. Is that what you meant?

I have a couple of small lenses -- 90/6.8 Beryl, 47/5.6 SA -- in rim set #00 Prontor Press. The SA came from the factory in one.

My 47/5.6, which is the early 70's version with a black barrel with two chrome stripes and the label inside the filter ring, will not seat in a modern (90's-era) rim-set Prontor Press #00 shutter. The barrel of the front cell angles in to a corner, and then has a flat surface from there to the base of the threads. That corner has a small ridge on it which is designed to almost (but not quite) kiss the front surface of the Compur shutter. That ridge runs into the front face of the shutter before the threads seat. I'm not sure if the ridge is the problem by itself. Perhaps machining that ridge off would solve the problem. I'm sure Schneider machined the barrel differently if they intended to mount it in a Prontor shutter. Of course, the later 47/5.6 SA's were mounted in #0 shutters, and that would have been the case starting in the late 70's (Schneider lists the MC version of this lens in a #0 shutter), so I'm thinking the Prontor shutter you have is probably from the 50's.

My 65/8 is the earlier 50's and early 60's version with the bright aluminum barrel on the front cell. It also has a ridge that runs into the front face of the Prontor before the threads fully seat. I thought about filing it off myself, and I still might. The Prontor shutter is nice--it's the outer size of a #0 shutter and thus is a lot easier to adjust than the tiny Compur #00. It's self-cocking and runs well. But I'd need to make an aperture scale for it.

Rick "who uses Compur 00 shutters but his fat fingers don't like them" Denney

Ari
29-Dec-2011, 09:13
Now that you mention it, Rick, some cells won't seat properly in a #0 dial set Prontor press because they hit the dial before they're properly seated. Is that what you meant?


At least that's what I meant, with my limited knowledge of lens and shutter design.

toprock03
29-Dec-2011, 19:34
Hah wow ok a lot of information here.

to sum it up - it wont matter if i have different copals as long as i have a shutter/lens board for each of my lenses (which i plan on doing). if i keep it simple like that and dont start mixing and matching shutters and lenses I should be golden correct?

Leigh
29-Dec-2011, 19:55
You should view an LF lens just like any other camera lens.

You don't take apart the lenses for your 35mm or MF camera. Why would you disassemble an LF lens?

You seem hung up on the name of the shutter for no reason that I can understand.
It makes no difference whether the shutter is a Copal or a Compur or a Prontor or a Seiko or whatever.

The lens is identified by the manufacturer, focal length, aperture, and lens series, not by the shutter in which it's mounted.

For example, in your original post you said:
"I have a copal 1 210mm sinaron s 5.4 lens."
No.
You have a 210mm f/5.6 Sinaron-S lens in a Copal #1 shutter. (I think your 5.4 is a typo, should be 5.6)

- Leigh

tlitody
30-Dec-2011, 06:59
Hah wow ok a lot of information here.

to sum it up - it wont matter if i have different copals as long as i have a shutter/lens board for each of my lenses (which i plan on doing). if i keep it simple like that and dont start mixing and matching shutters and lenses I should be golden correct?

In theory yes. In the real world maybe. Depends if you buy new or used. If used there's no telling until you try everything out to see if people have been fiddling with things or replacing front or rear elements from other lenses etc etc. Generally everything is OK.

rdenney
30-Dec-2011, 07:26
Hah wow ok a lot of information here.

to sum it up - it wont matter if i have different copals as long as i have a shutter/lens board for each of my lenses (which i plan on doing). if i keep it simple like that and dont start mixing and matching shutters and lenses I should be golden correct?

Here's my definition of keeping it simple: To start out with, buy lenses in shutters that work. Then, mount each one of them on a board that fits your camera and already has the right size hole for your shutter. For modern lenses in modern shutters, those hole sizes are standardized. That's all. High-quality lenses in shutters that work (even if they need their normal periodic maintenance sooner rather than later)--and sometimes even already mounted on a board for your camera--are so cheap these days that there's not much value in trying to put pieces together.

When you've got the basic lenses you need and some experience using them, then you might find a screaming deal on an interesting lens with a bad shutter, or on a good shutter with no lens, and start your collection of parts that require a more specialized understanding. But there is a bit of an entrance fee for that sort of play, and that fee is in collecting bits of information over a long period, or the willingness to part with some cash to someone like S. K. Grimes to put it all together for you.

Many photographers have lived long, happy, productive lives without ever reaching the point of mixing and matching shutters and lens cells.

Rick "start at the beginning" Denney

Brian Ellis
30-Dec-2011, 07:27
Hah wow ok a lot of information here.

to sum it up - it wont matter if i have different copals as long as i have a shutter/lens board for each of my lenses (which i plan on doing). if i keep it simple like that and dont start mixing and matching shutters and lenses I should be golden correct?

Correct. Forgetting weird situations, in the normal course of events you have one lens, one shutter in which that lens is more or less permanently mounted, and one lens board on which that lens and shutter are more or less permanently mounted (more or less meaning you would keep them all together in normal usage and separate them only if you had some specific reason to do so such as a repair or clean or maybe you were selling the lens and shutter without the board). If you have two lenses then each lens would have its own shutter and lens board even if the two shutters and/or lens boards are both the same size. And if you had three lenses etc. etc.