Problem Solving Advice Needed: Black spots on Efke film

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Help! I have a weird issue with black spots showing up on my Efke negatives and could use your advice.

About two months ago I started a thread about black spots on Efke 25ORT (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=82516). At the time, I thought it had something to do with an emulsion flaw, and moved on. This month I have had the same issue with Efke PL100, and am convinced that I am doing something wrong, but can't figure out what. Other films I have used recently (FP4+, Delta, Lucky 100) have not shown this pattern. I could use some advice problem solving.

The effect (see images below) is thousands of tiny black spots on the film. Usually these spots tend to show up medium to light grey areas, such as skin. I have noticed that black backgrounds do seem to produce spots. Also, not all the negatives I develop show these flaws, maybe half of them do.

I have used multiple developers (Xtol, D76, Pyrocat), and have seen the same effect with all, so it is clearly not in my developer. Perhaps my tap water?

Could this have something to do with my developing tank? I am using a Nikor 4x5 tank. The tank is, as best I can tell, clean, and I carefully wash and dry it between use. Maybe agitation? Again, not all of the negatives show these marks, but roughly half of the images per batch do.

Advice is appreciated!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OLZ07VnTl74/TvgYY6Z6qZI/AAAAAAAAA0g/B3ZUferaJrg/s800/MinaSpots.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-B28je30LiQc/TvgYUErWOxI/AAAAAAAAA0Q/4ajwg06vUT4/s640/MinaSpotsClose.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hjEhem3zPFc/TvgYY7NMyHI/AAAAAAAAA0s/bGJ5NPqngSU/s800/RoyaSpots.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hIia-Kng4QY/TvgYWldnrnI/AAAAAAAAA0Y/cXl7UyJQmjU/s800/RoyaSpotsClose.jpg

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Quick rundown of my technique:

1L solution in Nikor 4x5 tank

1. Pre-rinse, 1 minute tap water at 21C
2. Developer (Xtol 1:1 for 14 minutes, Xtol Straight for 9 minutes, Pyrocat 2:2:100 for 15 minutes), agitation for first 30 seconds, and then every 2 minutes, per Nikor instructions.
3. Water stop for 1 minute, tap water at 21C
4. Fix for five minutes (alkaline fixer, TF-2) in tray
5. Wash for 20 minutes in tray
6. Photoflo and Dry

[Jim Noel]

They look like dust spots, or possibly undissolved chemical deposits.
You might try a final rinse in distilled water, and switch to LFN instead of Photo-Flo.

[vinny]

Efke isn't known for the quality control kodak and ilford have. Lots of folks have had issues with efke films including myself. Things like no notch codes and scratches.

[lbenac]

I take the liberty to piggy back on this very timely thread as I have the same issue if somewhat to less extend.
I use exactly the same process except that I use TF5, LFN and I have mostly seen this with 120 Acros 100 and either Metol developer like Perceptol, Pyrocat HD or recently 510-Pyro. Likewise the spots are generally located in the highlights (sky, snow...) and are not necessarily on every roll. I just developed a perfect roll of Acros 100 but had the previous roll with the problem showing its ugly head.
Starting to read about this, there was a post suggesting that minerals deposit in the tap water or water tubing could be the culprit and that last wash with distilled water might be a solution. I just ordered an inexpensive faucet water filter to test but in the meantime will try that suggestion.

Cheers,

Luc

[johnielvis]

probably a quality issue--I've had similar problems with ilford...but, in all farness, it was outdated ilford (outdated by 3 months).....never a problem with kodak.

so--stock up on kodak or brush up on your spotting techniques.

[William Whitaker]

Jason,

I'd try to eliminate as many variables as possible. Use distilled water for all processes and see if the problem continues. If it does, then you can most likely remove your tap water from the list of suspects. If it cures the problem, then start re-introducing tap water to each processing stage, one at a time. See if that pins it down.

You might also consider making two exposures of the same scene, one on Efke and one on a "reliable" film. Develop them together in the same tank under identical conditions. Then compare to see if the problem affects both or just the Efke.

[davemiller]

Will’s suggestion seems very sensible to me and it’s the course of action I would follow. One change at a time is the way to go.

[photobymike]

No No i have seen this before.... photoflo on the reel and in tank. Never ever use photoflo in your tank or reel ... you cant wash it off. The developer is foaming from residual photoflo... then i would use acid stop bath.... try rinsinsing tank and reel with acid stop... higher concentrate ... i used pool acid on my Jobo tanks .. it stoped the foaming right away..... also acid stop gets the film ready for the acid in the fixer. i use an non acid fixer with Efke with separate hardener. Also I have found Efke film does not like acid .... I never use tap water where i am at .. to much chlorine in it....

try it ... i am digging thru my old negs to find some examples of the same problem

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Thank you for your advice. I will try again using only distilled water and possibly LFN instead of photoflo, if I can find it locally. I have never used a wash agent in my tanks, so don't think that is the cause. But will wash the tank with acid just in case. The Nikor instructions recommended nitric acid to clean the tank, so I will try that.

I am using a 3x4 Graflex so unfortunately I am stuck with Efke, since there are no alternatives in that size, at least until the Ilford order.

[Oren Grad]

I am using a 3x4 Graflex so unfortunately I am stuck with Efke, since there are no alternatives in that size, at least until the Ilford order.

As your first test I'd cut down a few sheets of 4x5 FP4 Plus or Delta 100 and develop in the same run with the Efke, as Will suggests. I wouldn't want to cut film routinely either, but for your troubleshooting it will be the quickest way to determine whether the problem is in the film itself. I'd do it before the painstaking step-by-step unpacking of your processing - if the film is bad the rest will be a waste of your time.

[Justin Cormack]

Thank you for your advice. I will try again using only distilled water and possibly LFN instead of photoflo, if I can find it locally. I have never used a wash agent in my tanks, so don't think that is the cause. But will wash the tank with acid just in case. The Nikor instructions recommended nitric acid to clean the tank, so I will try that.

I am using a 3x4 Graflex so unfortunately I am stuck with Efke, since there are no alternatives in that size, at least until the Ilford order.

If you use distilled water you shouldnt need photoflo or anything else. Would recommend trying nothing.

[Jim Michael]

We've had the same issue and it was not due to our process, some type of manufacturing defect. Our workaround was to use the dust filter in PS, setting the threshold at such a large value that only the black dots were filtered. If you print this stuff analog you've got a real problem.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

As your first test I'd cut down a few sheets of 4x5 FP4 Plus or Delta 100 and develop in the same run with the Efke, as Will suggests...

Yes, you are right of course. I will pull out the rotary cutter.

[William Whitaker]

3/4" off each dimension of a 4x5 sheet of film. You should be able to measure once and use the same setting. I'm hoping the problem is not with the Efke as I'm also using 3 1/4 x 4 1/4. If it is, then I'll be chopping film, too.

[Ari]

I will second or third the water quality as a culprit.
This is the reason for most spots on negatives, and it tends to happen in the final stages of processing.
You can invest in some inexpensive filters, or buy a bottle of distilled water for final rinse with wetting agent.

[Fred L]

In what kind of environment are you drying your film ?

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

My negatives hang on a line above my sink. The room isn't particularly dusty, and I have a HEPA filter running much of the time.

I always do a final rinse in distilled water, so I don't think that is the issue, and my so-called tap water is double filtered; particle filters only, no carbon. Anyhow I will cut down some FP4+ this afternoon, but probably won't be able to shoot, develop, and report back until next weekend. Thanks for all the advice!

[Ari]

If you don't already do so, try filling the sink with hot water, and let the water sit there, steaming up the room.
Do this about 10-15 minutes before hanging up your film, the steam will take care of any particles in the air that could glom onto your film.

[Bazz8]

No No i have seen this before.... photoflo on the reel and in tank. Never ever use photoflo in your tank or reel ... you cant wash it off. The developer is foaming from residual photoflo... then i would use acid stop bath.... try rinsinsing tank and reel with acid stop... higher concentrate ... i used pool acid on my Jobo tanks .. it stoped the foaming right away..... also acid stop gets the film ready for the acid in the fixer. i use an non acid fixer with Efke with separate hardener. Also I have found Efke film does not like acid .... I never use tap water where i am at .. to much chlorine in it....

try it ... i am digging thru my old negs to find some examples of the same problem

I at one stage had an issue like yours with some pan f 35mm negs, finally traced it to photoflow I now have a tank especialy for photoflow and use filtered water from a puratap setup, that appears the culprit in this case.time to do some tests with negs that are blank you will see the results pretty easily.

[Fred L]

Is it possible this film could be covered in the very,very early stages of moulding ? Dunno, just trying to think of what it could be. I'd be going with poor QC if it had to be narrowed down since you keep a very clean darkroom.

[Daniel Stone]

Are the spots/is the residue on the BASE or EMULSION side? Or both?

-Dan

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I exposed and developed last night--Efke and Delta in the same batch--and as I suspected, the Ekfe had spots, the Delta did not.

To further remove any doubt that it was the Efke and not something else in my process I used only distilled water, used LPN in the developer and as a drying-aid, and developed with real Xtol from the bag (not my usual Mytol), and Rapid Fix from the bottle (not my usual alkaline fixer from hypo). To be absolutely sure I will run one more batch over the weekend, tray developing instead of tank, but I am pretty sure what I will find. Sigh... It looks like me and the rotary cutter are going to be intimate friends, in the dark.

PS: The spots are in the emulsion side.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I am using a 3x4 Graflex so unfortunately I am stuck with Efke, since there are no alternatives in that size, at least until the Ilford order.


I exposed and developed last night--Efke and Delta in the same batch--and as I suspected, the Ekfe had spots, the Delta did not...It looks like me and the rotary cutter are going to be intimate friends, in the dark...I've had extremely good success storing Ilford film at least several years beyond its stamped expiration date in the refrigerator compartment of a frost-free refrigerator. Simply place the boxes in ziploc bags with as much air squeezed out as possible. Please order more film than you need when the Ilford window opens in April.

It pains me to watch people struggle with the crapshoot that is eastern European junk film when there's a first-tier-quality supplier available in the form of Ilford. No other film manufacturer is willing to offer consistently excellent products in unusual sizes with no minimum order. Ilford is the best chance we have for an ongoing supply of film worth buying.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

...No other film manufacturer is willing to offer consistently excellent products in unusual sizes with no minimum order. Ilford is the best chance we have for an ongoing supply of film worth buying...

I agree Sal, however my planning ahead skills are not always what they should be, nor could I have known during last years order that I would suddenly be smitten by a 3x4 Graflex...

[Sal Santamaura]

...my planning ahead skills are not always what they should be, nor could I have known during last years order that I would suddenly be smitten by a 3x4 Graflex...In that case, let's think positively about the situation. Even dealing with a few possible dust spots from cutting down Ilford in the darkroom, your negatives will be vastly cleaner looking than the Efke disaster. :D