PDA

View Full Version : Large petzval found (finally)



alex from holland
25-Dec-2011, 16:12
After a long search i finally found a suitable lens for my 20x20”Donchev camera.
This is a 24” early Voigtlander petzval which was produced aprox in the year 1864.
This lens is massive. I thought my 20inch Hermagis was big. This one is huge.
The glass is in execptional good shape. No separation, fungus or what so ever.
It came with one original waterhouse stop.


Some specs:
Weight :*************************8,3 kilo
Height:***************************39 cm
Diameter lens hood: **** * 19 cm
Flange diameter:************ 23 cm
Serial number:****************12540


If anyone can supply me the exact production date of this lens, please let me know.
Just to show how massive this lens is, the lens next to the Voigtlander is my Dallmeyer 3B

For pictures have a look over here : http://www.collodion-art.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-found-her.html

Jim C.
25-Dec-2011, 17:12
That's not a lens it's a cannon !
enjoy ! :)

Tony Karnezis
25-Dec-2011, 17:12
Wow it's like mounting a small child on a lens board.

eddie
25-Dec-2011, 17:17
1865

Steven Tribe
26-Dec-2011, 03:25
Sounds like a "Fünfzoller", size no. 8. Front lens glass diameter 138mm?
This is what I call a real Christmas present!

CCHarrison
26-Dec-2011, 05:34
Hello All,

I have a Voigtlander Serial number posted on my Petzval lens page (http://antiquecameras.net/petzvallens.html), and that is from a longstanding "published" source. That would place Alex's lens at 1865.

However, I recently came across a Humphrey's Journal article from Feb. 1866 and in it, Frederick William von Voigtlander states that "at the present moment has [combination lenses] reached the 18000th lens."

Note the article states that 10000th was "but a short time ago." So it would seem production was seriously ramped up in the early 1860's or the list I have is just plain off....

See attached. I think I am reading it correctly....

If I read that correctly, that pushes back Petzval dating 5 or more years ! Said another way, Alex's lens might be from 1860 or so, not 1865....

Thoughts?

Dan

Steven Tribe
26-Dec-2011, 05:53
Interesting!
18,000 for early 1866 would match the other "Landmark" serial numbers given by Prochnow:
10,000 1862. Could be January, though.
16,000 1864. Could be December, though.

2-3,000 per year?
My guess for 12,540 would be February 1863.

Having looked at the published list for Voigtländer serials numbers, I have grave doubts about it being other than a guess! It records that Voightländer made exactly 600 objectives for years and years - and then made exactly 800 a year for a long period!
Using "Milestone" lenses as benchmarks is probably a better system.
I realise that CC is using "accepted figures"!

CCHarrison
26-Dec-2011, 06:01
Steven,

Factor in that Voigtlander was also now making Orthoscop lenses in addition to the Petzval "Combination" lenses....not huge production, but some which would also factor into serial numbers and production. I have seen two Orthoscop lense with serial numbers in the 7xxx range and in the 11xxx range.

Dan

goamules
26-Dec-2011, 06:43
That's great to put more fact into the dates. I've often wondered about how the early production numbers and dating lists are derived. And I'd hoped they weren't just a wild guess based on our assumptions 100 years later. I know the Dallmeyer list can be extremely accurate because Sean has the ledgers where they wrote the serial number and month/year. But some of the other makers I believe people assume linear production year after year, but we know that's not how business works. In boom times (perhaps 1855 to 1864) production was probably ramped up, with many more workers and such. After the American Civil war, there was a decline in American makers, and they probably experienced a slowdown in sales for several years. Probably production varied too. With some manufacturers, like Darlot, their serial numbers seemed to follow little order over time, so you can't even guess on dates. Thanks for supplying that little clue Dan.

alex from holland
26-Dec-2011, 10:42
Thanks all for the great help!
Strange that there is so limited info about serial numbers of Voigtlander lenses
I have a book about the history of voigtlander which contains so many details about the company, but also no serial numbers. Strange.

The production info from my dallmeyer 3b which i received from Sean shows they did not used all serial numbers. There were large gaps inbetween. Maybe Voigtlander did the same?

alex from holland
26-Dec-2011, 11:27
For example. Voigtlander produced only 340 lenses between 1868 and 1873 !

Geoffrey_5995
26-Dec-2011, 11:38
Hello, You say it's a 24" focus. Do you mean back focus or equiv. focus? Can you provide max aperture? Thanks, Geoff

Steven Tribe
26-Dec-2011, 11:50
I suppose that unused serial numbers could signify "invisible" objectives which have been supplied blank to sales outlets/prestige camera makers who wanted to have only their brand name on the camera set?
Serial numbers progression does give away commercial information which makers may wish to keep private. Especialy early on when, for example, Voigtländers only major product was Petzvals.
I didn't find a match with 24" - 21 1/3" would be a better match with the catalogue - perhaps a back focus figure?

luphot
26-Dec-2011, 11:59
I had exactly the same one (sold now but not to Alex)
It was a 24in FL from the waterhouse slot.
2 sec exposure in summer open shade
I gave some technical spec here
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=71925&highlight=luphot
It gives sharp images with very nice bokey; I bet Alex will make some beautifull plates with it.

alex from holland
26-Dec-2011, 12:16
As Fabrice said, i also measured 24" at infinity starting from the waterhouse slot
Can't wait untill summer........
Aparture, because of the waterhouse slot, is about f5.3
Only measured from the glass it would be around f4

eddie
26-Dec-2011, 12:22
For example. Voigtlander produced only 340 lenses between 1868 and 1873 !

they produced 3400 in that time......

alex from holland
26-Dec-2011, 13:14
they produced 3400 in that time......

Nope, on page 93 of "Die firmgeschichte von Voigtlander & Son von 1756 bis 1914" is written :
Between 1868 ans 1873 only 340 lenses were produced. This because of the German/French war and the following financial crisis. (book is written in German, isbn 3-930292-25-4)

eddie
26-Dec-2011, 14:43
misprint ? i bet.

come on 5-6 lenses a month or so on average by a HUGE lens producing firm? no way.

the 1914 editor just transposed some numbers or had bad intel/resourses.....

the french were banging them out during that time......

alex from holland
26-Dec-2011, 15:33
Produced voigtalnder lenses :
untill 1868. 20000 pieces
Untill 1873. 20340 pieces
Untill 1876. 22000 pieces
Untill 1878. 25000 pieces

According to the book these numbers are based on several official documents (page 93)
Book was publisched in 2002 and written by Carsten Grabenhorst

Eddie, start learning German.. This is a extremely detailed and also interesting book to read. I just qoute what is in the book.

Alex

goamules
26-Dec-2011, 16:32
I wouldn't quote it if it's that suspicious! Did you check his sources?

Voigtlander and Dallmeyer were probably the biggest portrait lens producers during the second half of the 19th century. Dallmeyer was producing about 1000 lenses a year. Dan's Antiquecameras.net website shows Voigtlander making high hundreds a year. I'd bet your book data is wrong.

Geoffrey_5995
26-Dec-2011, 18:12
I do have one of these monster Voigtlangers in my collection and need to dig it out to see what the serial# is but won't be able to do this until a return home at the end of the week. I do remember it being approx. 24" focus to the Waterhouse stop slop and about f5. Will get the specs out when I have the lens in hand. Geoff

alex from holland
27-Dec-2011, 00:15
Hi Garret,

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to prove anything. I just found this informatin in this very detailled book. If anyone has other written data, just share them.
There is also written that Voigtlander was loosing market share very rappidly during those years. French makers and English makers like Hermagis, Dallmeyer were producing for much lower prices. Steinhell was introducing much more modern lenses where Voigtlander continiud producing older designs. Because of the French/German war, financial crisis and "fernrohrgeschaft" (wich i don't know what that means...) they lost a lot of market share.

Again, it's a very detailled book with export data, number of workers. Even with price compairisons with companies like Bush. Just try to get a copy.

CCHarrison
27-Dec-2011, 04:08
More data re: Voigtlander serial numbers...

About May 1862, a function was held to celebrate lens 10,000.


This book http://books.google.com/books?id=91zplL4faeEC&q=Voigtl%C3%A4nder+10000th+lens&dq=Voigtl%C3%A4nder+10000th+lens&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rqX5To_fKKHH0AGhqIWxAg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAQ states it was produced the end of 1861 and then the lens was exhibited...

And how about this..... here is ACTUAL lens number 10,000 from Voigtlander !!

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1715168

Dan

alex from holland
27-Dec-2011, 04:41
I wouldn't quote it if it's that suspicious! Did you check his sources?

Voigtlander and Dallmeyer were probably the biggest portrait lens producers during the second half of the 19th century. Dallmeyer was producing about 1000 lenses a year. Dan's Antiquecameras.net website shows Voigtlander making high hundreds a year. I'd bet your book data is wrong.

Garrett,

No i didn't checked his sources. Why should i ?
in that case i never ever can trust any written document.

I got the enclosed picture from Sean. As you can see the number of lenses aren't that many
So i assume they skipped numbers, just to mislead other lens firms ???


http://upload.pbase.com/image/140566523/original.jpg

alex from holland
27-Dec-2011, 04:42
Sounds like a "Fünfzoller", size no. 8. Front lens glass diameter 138mm?
This is what I call a real Christmas present!

Hi Steven,

yep, just meausured. That's the size of the glass.
Do you have one yourself ?

Alex

Steven Tribe
27-Dec-2011, 05:05
I hope the attached extracts from Prochnow's book will help the owners of the first Petzval series owners. Note the focus correction factors for the different sizes!

Thanks again for help with the 3B - I have nothing bigger (longer, anyway) than that!

alex from holland
27-Dec-2011, 05:21
I hope the attached extracts from Prochnow's book will help the owners of the first Petzval series owners. Note the focus correction factors for the different sizes!

Thanks again for help with the 3B - I have nothing bigger (longer, anyway) than that!

Thanks Steven,

I think you did a great job rescuing the 3b!

My lens has a other design. Note the attachment of the lens flange. It is at the very back of the lens.
(which makes it more difficult to mount because of the weight moment :mad: )

Emil Schildt
27-Dec-2011, 05:28
I hope the attached extracts from Prochnow's book will help the owners of the first Petzval series owners. Note the focus correction factors for the different sizes!

Thanks again for help with the 3B - I have nothing bigger (longer, anyway) than that!

made your images a little easier to read - hope you don't mind...

goamules
27-Dec-2011, 05:47
...

I got the enclosed picture from Sean. As you can see the number of lenses aren't that many
So i assume they skipped numbers, just to mislead other lens firms ???


That is the D model page. Have you looked at the A, B, C, Triple Achromat, Rectilinar Wide Angle, Rapid Rectilinear, and all the Landscape models pages? Do those numbers interleave? Science and research are often about confirming the most plausible theory. They weren't skipping numbers to mislead firms...!

EOTS
27-Dec-2011, 06:06
... Because of the French/German war, financial crisis and "fernrohrgeschaft" (wich i don't know what that means...) they lost a lot of market share.


Hi,

Fernrohrgeschäft means "telescope business"

Best regards,
Martin

Steven Tribe
27-Dec-2011, 06:52
Telescope business is very logical, as the Franco-Prussian War, short as it was, would have made it necessary for good quality telescopes to see the retreating Frenchmen!

Emil, the text is in German! And the quality is chosen to respect copyright (from the 2000's!). OK to read but not to copy and use for educational purposes!! I am not trying to do a CCHarrison here - as his items are in the public domain now.

Emil Schildt
27-Dec-2011, 07:27
Telescope business is very logical, as the Franco-Prussian War, short as it was, would have made it necessary for good quality telescopes to see the retreating Frenchmen!

Emil, the text is in German! And the quality is chosen to respect copyright (from the 2000's!). OK to read but not to copy and use for educational purposes!! I am not trying to do a CCHarrison here - as his items are in the public domain now.

all right - I'll remove them...

alex from holland
27-Dec-2011, 08:38
That is the D model page. Have you looked at the A, B, C, Triple Achromat, Rectilinar Wide Angle, Rapid Rectilinear, and all the Landscape models pages? Do those numbers interleave? Science and research are often about confirming the most plausible theory. They weren't skipping numbers to mislead firms...!

Garret, i got this page afew months ago from the dallmeyer specialist, Sean
What you are saying makes sence as we could not find my A-number.
I will contact Sean again and ask him if they used seperate books for separate models.

Alex

goamules
27-Dec-2011, 09:05
They used separate books or pages for each type. At one point I was working with Sean to get the ledger published. I have pages for some of my lenses, most are marked at the top with which model "Rapid Rectiliear", etc.

alex from holland
27-Dec-2011, 10:32
They used separate books or pages for each type. At one point I was working with Sean to get the ledger published. I have pages for some of my lenses, most are marked at the top with which model "Rapid Rectiliear", etc.

Strange as i asked him some info about my 3a and he has send me something from a D line. Thats why we couldn't find the number.
Will contact him tonight.

Thanks

Alex

CCHarrison
27-Dec-2011, 11:07
I have immortalized Alex and Fabrice's #8 Voigtlander Petzvals.. see http://antiquecameras.net/blog.html

Dan

Posted with permissions.

goamules
27-Dec-2011, 11:19
Looking again at your ledger pic, and then mine, I could be wrong that you have a "D" page. Notice mine has a "D" or whatever that letter is at the upper left too. But mine also lists the lens type in the middle. Yours has nothing in the middle, but I'm sure Sean sent you the correct page. Either way, they had different sections for different models. And if Dallmeyer was making hundreds a year, one would think Voigtlander was too. They are the most common high quality lens you find on cameras.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6582795287_6eeb943fab_o.jpg

alex from holland
28-Dec-2011, 03:01
Looking again at your ledger pic, and then mine, I could be wrong that you have a "D" page. Notice mine has a "D" or whatever that letter is at the upper left too. But mine also lists the lens type in the middle. Yours has nothing in the middle, but I'm sure Sean sent you the correct page. Either way, they had different sections for different models. And if Dallmeyer was making hundreds a year, one would think Voigtlander was too. They are the most common high quality lens you find on cameras.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6582795287_6eeb943fab_o.jpg

Garrett,

thanks.
strange thing is that Sean could not find my matching number in the books
for my 3b would he found it, but for my 3a not.

Alex

jm51
6-Jan-2012, 20:50
I like that shot of the tlr being swallowed up. :)

Tim Layton
8-Jan-2012, 08:37
After a long search i finally found a suitable lens for my 20x20”Donchev camera.
This is a 24” early Voigtlander petzval which was produced aprox in the year 1864.
This lens is massive. I thought my 20inch Hermagis was big. This one is huge.
The glass is in execptional good shape. No separation, fungus or what so ever.
It came with one original waterhouse stop.


Some specs:
Weight :*************************8,3 kilo
Height:***************************39 cm
Diameter lens hood: **** * 19 cm
Flange diameter:************ 23 cm
Serial number:****************12540


If anyone can supply me the exact production date of this lens, please let me know.
Just to show how massive this lens is, the lens next to the Voigtlander is my Dallmeyer 3B

For pictures have a look over here : http://www.collodion-art.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-found-her.html

First, congrats on the lens! I can't wait to see what you do with it. Also, this was a great thread and I learned a lot about the historic side of the lens that I wanted to know.

Tim

Geoffrey_5995
9-Jan-2012, 18:11
After a long search i finally found a suitable lens for my 20x20”Donchev camera.
This is a 24” early Voigtlander petzval which was produced aprox in the year 1864.
This lens is massive. I thought my 20inch Hermagis was big. This one is huge.
The glass is in execptional good shape. No separation, fungus or what so ever.
It came with one original waterhouse stop.


Some specs:
Weight :*************************8,3 kilo
Height:***************************39 cm
Diameter lens hood: **** * 19 cm
Flange diameter:************ 23 cm
Serial number:****************12540


If anyone can supply me the exact production date of this lens, please let me know.
Just to show how massive this lens is, the lens next to the Voigtlander is my Dallmeyer 3B

For pictures have a look over here : http://www.collodion-art.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-found-her.html

Hi Alex, I dug out my huge Voigtlander Petzval and here are the specs:

15.75 inches/ 39.37 cms tall
27 inch/ 675 mm equiv. focal length
21 1/2 inch/ 538 mm back focus
Max aperture f5
Serial # 21404

Hope this information that is useful. Best, Geoff