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amündenovskiy
20-Dec-2011, 15:10
Hi I am new to this, and I would LOVE to talk with someone in regards to this.
Anyone really, German, Canadian, TO-Montreal!? Anyone! I am a emerging artist looking to start a huge passion for developing my own pictures. Darkroom. I've always thought it was awesome since I was young.

Is there anyone I can talk to about this, some of my question are prob stupid, and I'd like to talk with someone who wouldn't refer websites and stuff on me, and instead answer it since if one takes short cuts on the very field he/she works in the work they do can't be good... :S

Thank you

Andrew Mündenovskiy
mundenovskiy.ca

Scotty230358
20-Dec-2011, 15:16
I'm in the UK so a personal chat is out of the question but feel free to drop me a PM with any questions and I will do my best to answer.

Alternatively post your quesions in this thread I will do my best to answer them there as well, without recourse to referring you to web sites.

E. von Hoegh
20-Dec-2011, 15:32
Ansel Adams wrote a set of three books, "The Camera", "The Negative", and "The Print". Highly reccomended. Also, go to the homepage of this site, there is much good info there.

amündenovskiy
20-Dec-2011, 17:10
Hi SCOTTY230358
I have no clue how to just act you, instead of other people reading, also... :S
Im new here obviously - actually new to forms (I don't very much care for forums.... yes the Truth is out) But I wanna learn, and make connections with people, other artists, photographers.

First question for now, is it cheaper to develop your own pictures, then Getting a lab to develop them for you? (Im thinking much cheaper? or just cheaper)

And Second Question:
My friend did darkroom work and she said the strongest chemical she used was like "compared" to the strength of Viniger ? is this somewhat true?
I saw in a movie, a girl getting her face removed almost from photographic chemicals (mind you this was like a 1970 film LOL, unknown name)

having just said that I have been interested in this field of work (becoming a freelance photographer) For YEARS and years, and I've been taking pictures for years also (With a digital camera) I have JUST recently bought a few film cameras (and STILL looking for a couple, including the ROLLEIFLEX 2.8GX/2.8F... NOT having good luck!) I always edited them on my computer to the best of my knowledge of photographic programs. But I always had this feeling, that it wasn't real. Since I've been taking pictures (yet again, first time being when I was like five) It feels FAR more real. And exciting. Just something about the fact you can only take 24 pictures (35mm) and then wait how ever long to get them developed. REALLY excites me!!
And I think when developing them myself SEELING the image slowly materialize would be a HUGELY exciting moment for me! I still love shooting with a digital camera (I use my Canon G10 PowerShot which I've used since 2009 and is reaching his age mark I guess lol for digital technology... lol) I AM actually making a iPhoto book from Apple about my [Digital] Black & White collection to date. like a coffee table book. :D So I can show people without having to bring a laptop over and brag about it - you now?

:D


Andrew Mündenovskiy
mundenovskiy.ca

cyrus
20-Dec-2011, 18:10
1- Yes far cheaper but in fact you'll probably have a relatively hard time finding a place to develop your photos nowdays. If you're shooting black and white, you'll just need a dark place, some trays or tanks, and the chemicals, and various little things like a thermometer and scissors etc.

2- Yes, again true. In most cases and especially if you're shooting black and white film rather than color, there are no dangerous chemicals used. This of course doesn't mean you shouldn't take normal precautions and shouldn't drink the stuff, but if you get it on your skin or clothes, it won't burn you or choke you etc. There are three chemicals - other than water - which are used: developer, stop bath (which can be simply a diluted mixture of water and white vinegar) and fixer.

I suggest you start out by reading the Ansel Adams and other books on darkroom work, and fool around with 35mm and medium format film before moving up to large format.

Scotty230358
21-Dec-2011, 04:25
Andrew

To augment Cyrus' reply

1. For me its not about economics its about being able to control the process and produce the results I want. Also, as previously mentioned, now that the world has lost its mind and worships at the alter of digital (poor deluted fools that they are ;-)) it is becoming increasingly difficult to find a lab to do the work. I feel that it is immensly satisfying to produce your own work from beginning to end. It gives you a real good feeling to be able to say "I made that" when you see your final result.

2. With regards to chemical toxicity - if you begin by using the most common ready made chemicals the worst classification you should come across is harmful with the vast majority being irritants. Many developers contain Metol which if you are sensitive can cause dermatitis. However many of the hazards of darkroom chemicals can be avoided by the use of nitrile gloves, some form of eye protection, good ventilation and a heay dose of common sense.

When you progress to making up your own chemistry (and many darkroom workers do - myself included) then you may come accross some chemicals that are toxic and corrosive but again common sense precautions will keep any hazards at more than acceptable limits.

I agree that you should start your journey with either 35mm or medium format. Although essentially very simple, there are many pit falls with large format that can prove frustrating to the inexperienced darkroom worker.

As for further reading I echo Cyrus' recommendation on the Ansel adams series. Additionally you may consider

a) The Photographer's Master Printing Course by Tim Rudman
b) Larry Bartlett's Black and White Photographic Printing Workshop
c) Basic Techniques of Photography Book 1 by John Schaefer


As your experience grows then you can get into such works as The Master Photographer's Toning Book by Tim Rudman and Controls in Black and White Printing by Carson Graves.

Keep those questions coming and enjoy the journey.

atlcruiser
21-Dec-2011, 05:03
Good for you!


One thing i might add to the above points is when you develope your own film you cna actually get quick results and see what you did right/wrong while the scene is still fresh in your mind.

I was very frustrated when I was forced to send film out then wait a week or more for them to return.

Greg Blank
21-Dec-2011, 07:28
I am sure you will find many people willing to talk or at least share thier insight here, my counter question is - what is worth - answer by way of experience: 0. I am not saying there is not profound knowledge here or that you can or can not understand it, either way. However I feel your best bet as a Newbie to photo, is hands on in a workshop, or a local college program. In a set program you can learn the basics and form some primary opinions on the equipment required. Another question of mine is; do you merely want to do film, or large format film. This is a LF centeric group so bear that in mind the dynamics are different. I do feel that books can help, but specific ones.
Charles Swedlund wrote an excellent one "Photography" (ISBN:0-03-056699-1) 410 pages, Holt, Rhinehart and Winston that covers the basics in simple to understand language and lots of explainintory images. It was my basic photo work book in college.



Hi I am new to this, and I would LOVE to talk with someone in regards to this.
Anyone really, German, Canadian, TO-Montreal!? Anyone! I am a emerging artist looking to start a huge passion for developing my own pictures. Darkroom. I've always thought it was awesome since I was young.

Is there anyone I can talk to about this, some of my question are prob stupid, and I'd like to talk with someone who wouldn't refer websites and stuff on me, and instead answer it since if one takes short cuts on the very field he/she works in the work they do can't be good... :S

Thank you

Andrew Mündenovskiy
mundenovskiy.ca

Bill Burk
21-Dec-2011, 09:25
Welcome Andrew,

Your enthusiasm will carry you far!

John Kasaian
21-Dec-2011, 09:30
The best way is to find a class taught by a good instructor and take it. Or spend some time with someone who has their own dark room. Hands on learning is the best way, IMHO. Good luck & have FUN!

Roger Cole
21-Dec-2011, 09:53
I am sure you will find many people willing to talk or at least share thier insight here, my counter question is - what is worth - answer by way of experience: 0. I am not saying there is not profound knowledge here or that you can or can not understand it, either way. However I feel your best bet as a Newbie to photo, is hands on in a workshop, or a local college program. In a set program you can learn the basics and form some primary opinions on the equipment required. Another question of mine is; do you merely want to do film, or large format film. This is a LF centeric group so bear that in mind the dynamics are different. I do feel that books can help, but specific ones.
Charles Swedlund wrote an excellent one "Photography" (ISBN:0-03-056699-1) 410 pages, Holt, Rhinehart and Winston that covers the basics in simple to understand language and lots of explainintory images. It was my basic photo work book in college.

That's true if you can find one, however I leaned the basics entirely by myself, as a teenager, from books and magazines long before the Internet. It was several years later when I met anyone else doing darkroom work, another high school student (I started at about age 11 or so with bemused and bewildered but supportive parents) at another area school that I met via ham radio.

So absolutely take a workshop or course if you can but if you can't, don't let that stop you. Of course I'm a firm believer in the idea that most things can be learned, eventually at least, by reading and practice.

cyrus
21-Dec-2011, 17:46
Ah, ham radio - the precursor of the internet!

neil poulsen
21-Dec-2011, 21:51
I'm with Scotty230358; my reason for having a darkroom is so that I can have total control of the process. For me, it wouldn't be possible to produce good black and white photos, if I did'nt have a darkroom.

The tricky question is, how does one proceed, if they do have total control? It's not obvious. Again for myself, getting the advantage of "total control" is exposing for the shadows and developing for the highlights. Ansel Adams (avec Fred Archer) method for this is called the "zone system." I read books that I could find on this topic, until I finally, successfully made it through the whole process. Over the years, I've improved the process, learning from others and from my mistakes, to my current approach.

Andrew O'Neill
21-Dec-2011, 23:28
If you want complete control, you will want to develop your film and make your own prints. Where abouts in Canada are you? Out East?

amündenovskiy
22-Dec-2011, 16:01
WOW THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR AMAZING INSIGHT! :D BEEN VERY HELPFUL! :D

I just wanted to point out now that I don't really have the want-power to read... Ugh And onto of that I have to buy these books, and I have books on digital photography somewhere collecting dust or bacteria I'm sure... (Bad cold). I learn more from insightful tips and one-on-one emails with actual photographers, that I can talk back and forth with. Obviously there is no one from where I am from, but email is fine! :D

I have no problem finding places to develop 120film, 220 film sheet film or even 35mm film (walmart) montréal has a GREAT store lozeau.com (should check it out) they have a great collection of films and what not - mostly not advertised on their website tho :S because of this digital age... I fear that film is slowly falling away, even tho I can always find film form sale. I mean I have a digital camera and taken great pictures of it.

Second for those of you who feel I should go to another forum.... apug I don't know... yeah I don't do forums - I find them really nerdy and I don't have the time to go from forum to forum, to forum. each one having a login - ONTOP of my facebook page, twitter account, etc for Mündenovskiy and my artwork so yeah now. Not to mention its Medium format photography I like and love It's just I have have yet a Medium format camera. which brings me to the reason why I kind of joined. I think... I looked up german forums and this was mainly recommended for the rOlleiflex I don't know, but now that I realize the forums means I absolutely love the atmosphere of it regardless if people do not like new people to medium format - I think if people can't help people using different film aren'y really good at what they do in the long run... (JUST SAYING, No hard feelings of course!!)

P.S. Anyway care to give me feed back about other pictures took (mundenovskiy.ca) let me know. I'd love to find out how I take my pictures (some are "Macro") and some are of Montréal! THIS BEAUTIFUL CITY! I feel I must add that

THANKS Y'ALL! I got to go, Im getting tired typing wow!

amündenovskiy
22-Dec-2011, 16:02
If you want complete control, you will want to develop your film and make your own prints. Where abouts in Canada are you? Out East?



YES I live out east I guess... WELL Before the Maritimes. I live in Laval/Montréal Québec Canada. Where a bouts are you Andrew? (SAME NAME BY THE WAY!)

Andrew Mündenovskiy
mundenovskiy.ca

ROL
22-Dec-2011, 16:24
Is there anyone I can talk to about this, some of my question are prob stupid, and I'd like to talk with someone who wouldn't refer websites and stuff on me, and instead answer it since if one takes short cuts on the very field he/she works in the work they do can't be good... :S
Andrew Mündenovskiy
mundenovskiy.ca

... then I won't. But I ain't so good anyhow. :p

emh
22-Dec-2011, 16:56
... I'd like to talk with someone who wouldn't refer websites and stuff on me, and instead answer it since if one takes short cuts on the very field he/she works in the work they do can't be good... :S

If you're not willing to read the books, or visit the forums that have been recommended, you're trying to take short cuts. If you want to become good at this, you need to put in the work.

cyrus
22-Dec-2011, 22:10
WOW THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR AMAZING INSIGHT! :D BEEN VERY HELPFUL! :D

I just wanted to point out now that I don't really have the want-power to read... Ugh And onto of that I have to buy these books, and I have books on digital photography somewhere collecting dust or bacteria I'm sure... (Bad cold). I learn more from insightful tips and one-on-one emails with actual photographers, that I can talk back and forth with. Obviously there is no one from where I am from, but email is fine! :D

I have no problem finding places to develop 120film, 220 film sheet film or even 35mm film (walmart) montréal has a GREAT store lozeau.com (should check it out) they have a great collection of films and what not - mostly not advertised on their website tho :S because of this digital age... I fear that film is slowly falling away, even tho I can always find film form sale. I mean I have a digital camera and taken great pictures of it.

Second for those of you who feel I should go to another forum.... apug I don't know... yeah I don't do forums - I find them really nerdy and I don't have the time to go from forum to forum, to forum. each one having a login - ONTOP of my facebook page, twitter account, etc for Mündenovskiy and my artwork so yeah now. Not to mention its Medium format photography I like and love It's just I have have yet a Medium format camera. which brings me to the reason why I kind of joined. I think... I looked up german forums and this was mainly recommended for the rOlleiflex I don't know, but now that I realize the forums means I absolutely love the atmosphere of it regardless if people do not like new people to medium format - I think if people can't help people using different film aren'y really good at what they do in the long run... (JUST SAYING, No hard feelings of course!!)

P.S. Anyway care to give me feed back about other pictures took (mundenovskiy.ca) let me know. I'd love to find out how I take my pictures (some are "Macro") and some are of Montréal! THIS BEAUTIFUL CITY! I feel I must add that

THANKS Y'ALL! I got to go, Im getting tired typing wow!

There's no particular reason to have a Rolleiflex. Yeah it is a great camera (I have a few in my collection) but lots of people do wonderful work with homemade pinhole cameras or plastic Holgas in medium format which is also why I have a collection of "Krappy Kameras (http://sohophoto.com/krappy_kamera_comp.html)".

emh is right. The one thing you'll learn in darkroom work is that there is no 'short cut'. It takes time and effort. I've struggled for days on getting just the right print from a negative and then dumped it all only to come back months or maybe years later and give it another try - just with slight adjustments to contrast, burning and dodging. Shortcuts will show in the result; the slightest imperfection will become quite obvious to you and it will eat your soul. Maybe only other photographers may notice it, but it will be there. Darkroom work is meticulous, methodical and repetitive. You can easily spend 8 hours in there, and end up with ONE halfway decent print which you'll toss out and try again later.

E. von Hoegh
23-Dec-2011, 09:48
If you're not willing to read the books, or visit the forums that have been recommended, you're trying to take short cuts. If you want to become good at this, you need to put in the work.

+1. This isn't plug & play. Printing happens in real time, and there is no other way to become proficient other than doing it, over and over. You must also be able to view some really fine prints, not in books, or on the net, but in real life. Having the books immediately to hand is better than googling.

Robert Crigan
26-Dec-2011, 01:56
More power to you for tackling this full-on.
Some comments:
Ansel's books are complete and authoritative but rather heavy going for complete beginners. I suggest you try and find someone nearby who shares you interests and who has experience. For things like learning how to load roll film into a camera nothing beats watching someone do it.
You can get by with pretty basic gear, using a closet or blacked-out kitchen as darkroom. Improvisation will take you a long way to your goal.
Good luck
Robert

ki6mf
26-Dec-2011, 08:41
Here is a good step by step tutorial that can be used to determine how to develop your negatives to get optimal dynamic range. Follow the film speed and development test links. Keep all you chemistry at 68F/20C and use a water bath for consistency

In terms of film and developer combinations you may want to start with what is readily available. Them move on to experiment with other film/developers.

Do Not! change the film or developer mid test or the tests will fail.

Zone system Development Test Jerry Orabona
http://www.jerryo.com/teaching.htm