More Kodak discontinuations

[Sal Santamaura]

Here's the latest round from Kodak. Of interest to the LF community, 8x10 320TXP and Ektar 100 go from being stock items to special orders only.

[Drew Wiley]

Well that's another low blow for me. But I've already started my freezer reserve of
8X10 Ektar. Group orders thereafter are potenially dicey, however. They sure know how to accelerate their own demise, having just introduced the product not too long ago. I don't know of any real substitute for it. What's next? ALL 8x10 film?

[Ralph Barker]

I knew there was a reason for me switching to Ilford for B&W films several decades ago. ;)

[BetterSense]

Wait; isn't TMY also special-order only in 8x10? So Kodak is offering no high-speed B&W film in 8x10?

Just checking.

[SamReeves]

Time to put in another order at Freestyle.

[Sal Santamaura]

...So Kodak is offering no high-speed B&W film in 8x10?...When existing stock of 320TXP is gone, Kodak will offer no black and white film of any kind as a stock item in 8x10.

[Visions]

What is the best temperature to store film?

[Sal Santamaura]

What is the best temperature to store film?If it's standard-size Kodak film, packed under low relative humidity conditions in laminated vapor-seal envelopes, the lower the better. I keep mine in the freezer compartment of our main refrigerator-freezer at around 0 degrees F. If one has a dedicated freezer, even lower temperatures are good. Some have posted that theirs are set for -15 degrees F.

Note that, after cutting open a Kodak inner envelope, or when storing non-Kodak film which is delivered in unsealed black plastic inner bags, one should not place the film in a freezer. Instead, the box is best put in a zipper-locking plastic bag (with as much air squeezed out as possible) and stored in the refrigerator compartment of a frost-free refrigerator-freezer.

Whether removing cold-stored film from a freezer or refrigerator, be sure to let it warm up to room temperature before opening the package. Failure to do so will result in condensation on the film's surface, usually showing up as spots in images.

[photobymike]

What is the best temperature to store film?

Freezing is not the best answer for keeping film. 40 degrees is best... but humidity control is most important.

If you want to keep film for longer than ten years, then I would consider freezing. When film is manufactured the emulsion has a relative humidity level standard that has to be maintained. Too low and the emulsion cracks and to high it rots and excepts gasses that interact with the emulsion. There is a whole list of gases that really are quite common, if you want a list email me. Basically everything in the kitchen and the garage will effect the emulsion if the emulsion humidity gets to high. So seal your film no matter how you store it. Then the type of base is also consideration, acetate film base, emulsion cracking can occur but not so much of a problem. Estar or polyestar based film, well have you ever developed a roll of film that looks like a spring that cannot be straitened? well that means too dry or low humidity. Freezing very much can change the humidity level of the emulsion of your film emulsion, which you really want to avoid.

this is from a post back in Feb 2011 I had some friends that were real geeks when it came to film dev, storage ect.... early in my photo career

http://www.mikepic.com
http://www.facebook.com/photobymike

[jp]

I figured it was odd that 8x10 Tri-x was a stocked item but 8x10 TMY2 wasn't. I've started using the 8x10 TMY2 from my canham order a year ago, and it's real nice stuff and I'm glad I have a bunch in my freezer.

[John NYC]

So now we've got stock items in 8x10 of Portra 160 and 400 (the new ones) and E100G. Hmmmmmm.... I wonder which one is going next?

[Roger Cole]

E100G if I had to bet. I love that film too, at least in 35mm.

On the one hand I'm kind of glad I haven't taken the 8x10 plunge. On the other hand, color in 8x10 is already so expensive I would rarely shoot color even if I had 8x10, and in black and white I can live happily with Ilford.

[Daniel Stone]

Roger,

SHHHHH!!!! Don't let Kodak think we're all moving to Fuji ;)! I love E100G for times when I want a bit more "warmth" than Provia provides straight off. Kodak's greens, IMO, aren't as radiant, but a bit more natural IMO. I like both though, and will shoot what gives me the desired results.

E-6 isn't a popular process these days though, especially in 8x10...

-Dan

[Greg Blank]

Same here.


I knew there was a reason for me switching to Ilford for B&W films several decades ago. ;)

[Kirk Gittings]

SHHHHH!!!! Don't let Kodak think we're all moving to Fuji !

I get the impression that they don't care.

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

KODAK PROFESSIONAL TRI-X 320 Film / 320 TXP / 10 sh 8 x 10 in
Special Order Only

My favorite film, by far. Fantastic behavior in PMK, the most beautiful tones.
My stock will endure one year, may be two.

I can't believe! How could such iconic film have so low demand in the US?
Someone in this forum stated that we talk a lot about cameras and lenses, but do not go outdoor making images.
I'm beginning to agree.......

Or will be Kodak doing it on purpose, just to abandon film?

[Frank Petronio]

Won't a place like B&H easily fulfill the special order requirements?

[mikebarger]

Glad I stuck with 4x5.

[mikebarger]

KODAK PROFESSIONAL TRI-X 320 Film / 320 TXP / 10 sh 8 x 10 in
Special Order Only

My favorite film, by far. Fantastic behavior in PMK, the most beautiful tones.
My stock will endure one year, may be two.

I can't believe! How could such iconic film have so low demand in the US?
Someone in this forum stated that we talk a lot about cameras and lenses, but do not go outdoor making images.
I'm beginning to agree.......

Or will be Kodak doing it on purpose, just to abandon film?



That's it in a nutshell (not enough film being consumed), and really there are not that many of us even talking about 8x10 in the scheme of things.

[Gene McCluney]

That's it in a nutshell (not enough film being consumed), and really there are not that many of us even talking about 8x10 in the scheme of things.

Oh there are lots of people here that shoot 8x10 (and larger) but we sure can't afford to at the prices Kodak now charges for 8x10 film stocks, therefore we purchase other brands.

[jp]

It reallly pains me to spend $7/sheet for b&w film; for some reason more than shooting 3-4 sheets of $4 film.

I'm slowly getting over it, but grudgingly. What's getting me over it is that every sheet is a keeper and it looks awesome. Not that the $4 stuff is bad, the Kodak stuff is just better at resisting scratches, pinholes, better dynamic range, better reciprocity, etc... No risking $7 on a shot, no reward. The stakes are bigger, and results are bigger and better. On 4x5 I stick with the good stuff regardless of cost, but the price difference per sheet is much less.

Probably in the same way multiple cheap mediocre take-out meals go unappreciated, but a nice higher end dinner experience is much appreciated.

Not disparaging cheap film; I just bought some Xray film and think it's worth trying anything to create film images.

[Sal Santamaura]

...320 TXP / 10 sh 8 x 10 in Special Order Only...How could such iconic film have so low demand in the US?...Judging from what I read here and on other forums, many if not most 8x10 photographers seem to feel that TMY-2 is greatly superior, so they want that instead.


Won't a place like B&H easily fulfill the special order requirements?Apparently it will have difficulty doing that. For example, Canham has managed to complete only one 8x10 TMY-2 special order nearly 11 months ago, with a second attempt falling short in October

http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilmstatus.html.

This despite his minimum number of boxes being 218, fewer than the B&H minimum of 245 boxes

http://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilm.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533811-USA/Kodak_1930106_TMY_8_x_10.html.

Although B&H asks "only" $73.50 per box, compared to Canham's $77.00, it has not to my knowledge sold anyone the minimum quantity since TMY-2 became a special order item. Note that these are 10-sheet boxes.

As this is typed, B&H has 97 boxes of 8x10 320TXP in stock and is offering free shipping within the US

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533812-USA/Kodak_8179707_TXP_4164_8x10_Tri_X.html.

Badger had 24 boxes yesterday, but has only 4 boxes right now

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=659

after noting the discontinuation on its Web page.

For my purposes, 8x10 320TXP works better than TMY-2. Given most people's apparent preference for the latter, as well as Kodak's shaky status in general, this may be the last opportunity to purchase any. Consequently, I added as much to my cache this morning as our freezer will accommodate. I suggest anyone who feels the same act similarly.

[Allen in Montreal]

I knew there was a reason for me switching to Ilford for B&W films several decades ago. ;)

I did not do it decades ago, but in the last few years I have made the move to HP5 and little FP4.

Sad, I still feel like a trader at times, but at the end of the day, who is taking care of us, not Kodak. :( :(

[Frank Petronio]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533812-USA/Kodak_8179707_TXP_4164_8x10_Tri_X.html

Shows in stock, ten-sheet boxes of 8x10 Kodak Tri-X 4164 for $54.95 with free shipping.

Tell me that's a great deal and that I should buy 100 boxes to double my money in six months.

[Sal Santamaura]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533812-USA/Kodak_8179707_TXP_4164_8x10_Tri_X.html

Shows in stock, ten-sheet boxes of 8x10 Kodak Tri-X 4164 for $54.95 with free shipping.

Tell me that's a great deal and that I should buy 100 boxes to double my money in six months.Can't tell you that. Since I posted just over an hour ago, their stock has gone down from 97 boxes to 92. :)

[Jay Decker]

... ten-sheet boxes of 8x10 Kodak Tri-X 4164 for $54.95 with free shipping.

Tell me that's a great deal and that I should buy 100 boxes to double my money in six months.

Love the film... been thinking about buying the 100 boxes myself for personal consumption, but I just can't bring myself to push the button, due to the lack of value.

It pains me to see watch Kodak right now... it is like watching a slow motion train wreck. Loved their products, but they screwed the pooch business-strategy wise and it is too late for them to recover without going through chapter 11.

Maybe Frank will buy the TXP recipe, one of the coating machines, a slitter, etc. and he will make sheet TXP for us in his garage on weekends... :rolleyes:

[Frank Petronio]

No ;-/

Hey the Impossible Project bought a factory, hired the ex-employees, and got Ilford involved and they still can't make a stable product after several years. I wouldn't dare tackle TXP (even though I know you're kidding).

[John NYC]

Can't tell you that. Since I posted just over an hour ago, their stock has gone down from 97 boxes to 92. :)

How are you viewing their stock numbers?

[Roger Cole]

It reallly pains me to spend $7/sheet for b&w film; for some reason more than shooting 3-4 sheets of $4 film.

I'm slowly getting over it, but grudgingly. What's getting me over it is that every sheet is a keeper and it looks awesome. Not that the $4 stuff is bad, the Kodak stuff is just better at resisting scratches, pinholes, better dynamic range, better reciprocity, etc... No risking $7 on a shot, no reward. The stakes are bigger, and results are bigger and better. On 4x5 I stick with the good stuff regardless of cost, but the price difference per sheet is much less.

Probably in the same way multiple cheap mediocre take-out meals go unappreciated, but a nice higher end dinner experience is much appreciated.

Not disparaging cheap film; I just bought some Xray film and think it's worth trying anything to create film images.

Do you have those problems with Ilford? These problems sound like what folks are saying about Foma, but I've never had any problems with Ilford film. I just checked the Freestyle web site and Ilford 8x10 B&W is almost the same price as Foma, at least "Foma brand Foma." TXP is $5.99 a sheet. HP5+ is $4.40. Fomapan 400 is $3.99 a sheet and Arista rebranded Foma is $2.79 a sheet.

I understand and agree with what you're saying, just wondering what film you're talking about. If Kodak prices are too much and Foma/Adox etc. are too unreliable and problematic, I'd go to Ilford, unless you're saying you have these problems with Ilford?

[Frank Petronio]

You can view their stock by attempting to buy it, type in a high guess for quantity, then a lower one, see what gets rejected and accepted. 4-5 guesses and you can tell.

I'm not shooting 8x10 or I would buy a bunch. I don't want to try to sell it in year, people may adjust and be happy enough with HP5 and not want to pay for TXP (which is the root of the problem....)

Thanks Sal for calling it to our attention.

Where else is a reliable stockist besides Freestyle, B&H, and Badger?

[Sal Santamaura]

How are you viewing their stock numbers?Place a large quantity in your shopping cart. If it's more than they have, a message is displayed indicating that. Decrement until you don't get the message. If you don't get the message when first placing what you believe is a large quantity in your cart, increment until you do. :)

[Frank Petronio]

85 this morning ;-/

[John NYC]

I bet it will taper off soon and then X boxes will sit there for a half a year.

[eddie]

i just wish this idiot company would just fold so they stop taking monies (orders) away from the other film companies.

maybe we only need one company to sell film. clearly kodak can not run a business!

bye bye kodak!

or should i say buy buy kodak ..... while you still can?

[Roger Cole]

If other companies made films like Ektar 100, the Portras and E100G I might even agree, though I'd miss 35mm and, to a lesser extent, 120 Tri-X.

Fuji DID make a film like E100G, Astia, but the #%$^s canceled it too. They don't have anything like Ektar and nothing as good as the new Portras.

But in black and white we do have other excellent and very viable choices.

[jp]

Do you have those problems with Ilford? These problems sound like what folks are saying about Foma, but I've never had any problems with Ilford film. I just checked the Freestyle web site and Ilford 8x10 B&W is almost the same price as Foma, at least "Foma brand Foma." TXP is $5.99 a sheet. HP5+ is $4.40. Fomapan 400 is $3.99 a sheet and Arista rebranded Foma is $2.79 a sheet.

I understand and agree with what you're saying, just wondering what film you're talking about. If Kodak prices are too much and Foma/Adox etc. are too unreliable and problematic, I'd go to Ilford, unless you're saying you have these problems with Ilford?

I have no problems with Ilford and would consider them a good option to Kodak. I've only shot about a half dozen sheets of Ilford FP4+, so I don't have a good understanding of it yet to adequately review it. I use their paper a great deal and respect them a lot.

I've shot Tmax400 since 1990ish and am quite comfortable with it and feel like I know it. Exploring other developer choices with Tmax400 in the past couple of year has made that relationship even better.

Efke I must have had a bad batch or something, but I tried to make a box of 50 4x5's work and had many quality issues on their pl50 film. Haven't been compelled to try it again in another size or speed. Foma is the cheap stuff I compared prices too. It's hard to resist with their Arista packaged prices. I buy the Foma paper too and like the paper. Their 100 film is capable of nice stuff in certain circumstances and I want to continue to wring that out. People like Nana and Gandolfi show what it can do and inspire persistence. I have some pinhole/emulsion issues I'm working out and next time I shoot it I will try another fixer to see if that's it; one change a time. I've already found Foma 100 likes PyrocatHD better than PMK, where Kodak works well in either. A stronger PMK mix might work, but that's not really the idea.

[goamules]

Well I just ordered some...while I still can.

"When I'm all done cultivating I'll be rocking on the porch
"Trying to picture you and where you are."
Neil Young - Fields of Opportunity

[John NYC]

Meanwhile Kodak introduced two new photographic papers today. One color and one "metallic".

[Brian C. Miller]

I knew there was a reason for me switching to Ilford for B&W films several decades ago. ;)


Same here.


I get the impression that they don't care.


I can't believe! How could such iconic film have so low demand in the US?

Well, Helcio, there you go! Why is the demand for Kodak so low? Either the photographers are using Ilford, or else they've stocked up to the gills with a special order. Or maybe they're using x-ray film for 50 cents a sheet. Kodak is in business to make money, and requiring a special order is cheaper for Kodak than distributing through normal channels.

Money talks, and Kodak follows the money. When their film is 50% higher than the other brands, what will the majority of photographers purchase? The cheaper brand that's good enough, of course.

There aren't any high-volume users of 8x10 anymore, anywhere. How do I know? A special order is $15,000. At nearly $8 per sheet, that's 1,875 sheets. There are 52 weeks in the year, five working days per week, so 260 days. 1,875 sheets divided by 260 days comes to a tad over seven sheets per day.

Seven sheets per day. Nobody is using that much film. Not. One. Single. Person.

There isn't even a large enough group to do that, beyond the initial special order that went into a bunch of freezers. That's the level of film consumption for 8x10. My usage is a box or two a year, and I buy what's on the shelf locally because I can't store anything.

So there you go. It's all about volume.

[John NYC]

Seven sheets per day. Nobody is using that much film. Not. One. Single. Person.



While the gist of what you are saying is true, this specific claim is overstated. There are auction houses and high end retailers in New York City that still shoot a lot of E6 8x10 at least on a daily basis.

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah but in the 80s we used to shoot 20-40 sheets of 8x10 for a nice shot all the time. Some of the catalog houses probably 1,875 sheets in month. Some cruncher looks and sees the sales are at 1% of their historic high and says give it up, it is hard not to see it that way....

[David Luttmann]

I switched to Ilford for all my B&W. I garee....Kodak is a slow motion trainwreck!

[Sal Santamaura]

I bet it will taper off soon and then X boxes will sit there for a half a year.I've been watching this situation for a while now, wondering when the latest delivery would be the final delivery.

B&H has been showing around 175 boxes of 8x10 320TXP in stock at each peak, which then gets drawn down at a fairly steady rate, frequently being replenished back to that level when approximately 60 boxes remain a month or so later. Most recently, it bottomed out at 0 boxes and was "out of stock" for many weeks. This time it's flying out the door much faster.

Unless Kodak still has some finished 8x10 stock in the pipeline (not just a master roll), I don't think the 85 boxes still at B&H will last half a month, much less half a year, now that the discontinuation is public knowledge.

[Brian C. Miller]

While the gist of what you are saying is true, this specific claim is overstated. There are auction houses and high end retailers in New York City that still shoot a lot of E6 8x10 at least on a daily basis.

E6, but not B&W. B&W in 8x10 has become such a niche that if there was one high-volume B&W studio in the US using Kodak, KB Canham would never have a problem filling that special order, ever. It would be, "who wants to piggyback with the Super Silver Studio order this month?" Thus, I don't see an overstatement, as Kodak is only offering 8x10 B&W as a special order.

4x5 B&W isn't in "danger." A couple of weeks ago I bought a 50 sheet box of TMax 400, no problem. I'm sure that I could go downtown and buy another 50 sheet box. But Kodak 8x10 B&W? Hmmm...

[Drew Wiley]

I look at it completely differently - if you're already making the sheet film stock, why
piss off the top of the food chain and further damage your already crippled reputation?
What we're talking about here is packaging and warehousing, not actual film manufacture. It's analogous to dropping fifty-sheet boxes - an inconvenience that doesn't earn any brownie points right when they should be looking for as much customer loyalty as possible. If a film has to be dropped outright to streamline their
production expenses, I understand that. But every sheet of 8x10 is worth four of
4X5, and someone like me might drop both if I can't get both. No, I'm not a big consumer (waster) of film. I need to somehow justify the cost. But for everyone of me
getting the cold shoulder, there's a dozen folks in the domino effect who will discouraged from experimenting with 8x10 if the film supply gets unbearably flaky. And
if I get only smaller color film, I'll inevitably be making smaller color prints. It unwinds
in several directions, and the next thing you know, processing options for E6 and C41
will become scarcer, accelerating the whole mess. No different than the other kinds of
businesses I'm in - I see competitors making panic decisions during hard times which
inconvenience their remaining customers, and this in turn becomes the straw which
ends up breaking the camel's back. By itself, 8X10 film sales might not amt to a lot of
dollars one way or the other, but Kodak has quite a history at this point of holding out
a carrot with some exciting new product or service, then whacking you with a stick
soon afterwards. Word gets around.

[Frank Petronio]

If they moved to an internet sales only model and cut out the middle-men perhaps they could sell a wider variety and quantities. It's not like the shops have big clear film coolers to show it all off like the olden days of 2004.... But I suspect they will ride their business model down to the end.

[Allen in Montreal]

Drew,

This is my situation exactly.

Kodak first messed around with the 5x7 supply in Canada. Kodak in the US would say one thing on the phone and the CDN distributor would tell me to piss off regardless of what head office said. So I moved to HP5. If I am going to go through the grief of learning HP5 inside out for 5x7, might as well make it for 8x10 too. I have not bought yellow in 5x7 or 8x10 for a long while, there are about 90 sheets of 8x10 HP5 in my fridge right now.

I still buy yellow for 4x5, 120 and 35mm, but I do buy Ilford in those formats too.

My next concern is chemistry.

I use 95% Kodak chemistry.

I have found myself stocking up and keep a full case of: X-tol, Tmax RS, Dektol, D-76, Hypo Clear and Fixer at any give time.

As much as HP5 is a fine film, Kodak makes better chemistry (imho).

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

Well, Helcio, there you go! Why is the demand for Kodak so low? Either the photographers are using Ilford, or else they've stocked up to the gills with a special order. Or maybe they're using x-ray film for 50 cents a sheet. Kodak is in business to make money, and requiring a special order is cheaper for Kodak than distributing through normal channels.

Money talks, and Kodak follows the money. When their film is 50% higher than the other brands, what will the majority of photographers purchase? The cheaper brand that's good enough, of course.

There aren't any high-volume users of 8x10 anymore, anywhere. How do I know? A special order is $15,000. At nearly $8 per sheet, that's 1,875 sheets. There are 52 weeks in the year, five working days per week, so 260 days. 1,875 sheets divided by 260 days comes to a tad over seven sheets per day.

Seven sheets per day. Nobody is using that much film. Not. One. Single. Person.

There isn't even a large enough group to do that, beyond the initial special order that went into a bunch of freezers. That's the level of film consumption for 8x10. My usage is a box or two a year, and I buy what's on the shelf locally because I can't store anything.

So there you go. It's all about volume.

Ouch! It's hard to read this....so harder because it's real.

I can remember a photographer in São Paulo, in the 80's, using 50 sheets of TX4x5" on a single subject...

[John Kasaian]

I've still got some old yeller in the freezer but i haven't shot any 8x10 Kodak in probably two years.
I can't afford it.
Ilford, Orwo and Foma get my biz.
I haven't used any Kodak papers in that time either, the eastern europeans supply all my paper now.
I still use some Kodak chemicals, but IMHO l can easily find replacements--its no biggie.

I wonder when Kodak will pull the plug on 5x7 film as well? 5x7 Tri-X is still available, right?

[Sal Santamaura]

...Kodak is only offering 8x10 B&W as a special order.

4x5 B&W isn't in "danger."...I wouldn't be so sure. One shouldn't lose sight of the big picture. Kodak's continued existence as a corporate entity is far from probable. All the discontinuations (this round and earlier ones) seem like a well-planned winding down of the business.

While I've filled a freezer with lots of 5x7 and 100 sheets of 8x10 320TXP, that's mostly because the emulsion's characteristic curve is such a good match to the thousands of 8x10 Azo sheets I stockpiled years ago. Also, the retouchable back coating completely eliminates any concern about Newton's rings when contact printing.

Going forward, Ilford will be my main supplier. FP4 Plus is a fine film; I'm standardizing on it for 4x5, 5x7 and whole plate. Others might like Delta 100 better. Counting on Kodak to be around a year from now, still supplying TMY-2 or any other film, is placing one's eggs in a very shaky basket.

[Jan Pedersen]

I just recently printed with the 320TXP/Azo combination incouraged by on an earlier post by you Sal and i agree that it is a very nice combo.

The 8x10 B&W sheet film from Kodak may soon be history but if i were using more 4x5 than i do i would start filling the freezer now. I don't think it will be arround for much longer. I have started to buy some 120 rolls on a regular basis just to be prepared.

[Drew Wiley]

I'd hate to lose that extra margin of quality security that might happen with Kodak's
demise. There's no direct substitute for HC-110 or TMRS developers, for instance, and
will the replacement products for things like RA4 developer in small batch kits really be
equal to Kodak's version? One can lose quite a bit of money just finding out. TMax films
are more resistant to handling scratches etc than the generic replacements, and Ilford
doesn't really have comparable curve characteristics in any of their current films. Ektar
was just intoduced and there's nothing quite like it, and it gave me a ray of hope now
that Ciba is going down for the count; and I just don't regard digital printing as a realistic option - equip and software are going obsolete all the time, it ain't cheap at
all to print in big sizes, and definitely doesn't give me either the look or market niche
I am personally aiming for. And inflation is finally kicking in big time on all kinds of photo
supplies. So that leaves me little option to seeing just how much film I can afford to
stockpile in the freezer and simply hoping that C41 film processing will remain available.
Communicating with Fuji can be just as miserable as with Kodak, and I suspect they
have their share of infighting and conflicting info too. But at least their color paper
looks like it will have a strong market presence for some time.

[Brian Ellis]

. . . 4x5 B&W isn't in "danger." A couple of weeks ago I bought a 50 sheet box of TMax 400, no problem. I'm sure that I could go downtown and buy another 50 sheet box. But Kodak 8x10 B&W? Hmmm...

I'd rephrase that to say 4x5 B&w isn't in "immediate danger." Long range its prospects are no different than those of 8x10, it's just a question of how long "long" is.

[adam satushek]

...and if it TPX and Ektar in 8x10 now....how long will it be Portra 160 in 8x10, then 4x5...and even 120. This recent round of discontinuations doesnt "directly" affect my work flow "immediatly." However, I am seriously worried that my recent investments in a drum scanner, mamiya 7 lenses, and additional 4x5 lenses will be a waste if I cannot get color neg film in the near future. While I'm sad that TPX will be harder to get, as I was recently contemplating shooting some in 8x10, it would be the loss of color neg film that would really scare me. I need it to do the work I do.

[Kirk Gittings]

I'd rephrase that to say 4x5 B&w isn't in "immediate danger." Long range its prospects are no different than those of 8x10, it's just a question of how long "long" is.

agreed

[Drew Wiley]

Right when I was about to beef up my inventory of mtg board and print boxes, and
maybe do a custom run of mouding, this pops up, and there goes my elective cash
into that damn freezer! But so far this hasn't been a bad strategy - film discontinuances or not, because it has given me an edge on the pricing inflation of
film and paper in general. I'll be able to coast a few years without major film purchases.
But I certainly don't want a decades worth of anything for fear it will spoil or be
genuinely superseded. Just ironic how you go onto the Pro section of Kodak's website
and they're promoting how wonderful Ektar is for pros now that sheets are available
too! Kinda like back when a co-worker invited me to dinner at their house so I could
answer a few repair questions. Once I was there he handed me a pipe wrench. Two
hours later his wife showed up with a Burger King bag. I'd be a little more sympathetic
to Kodak's plight if this kind of thing hadn't happened over and over again. A relatively
small pain for me, but when a lab owner friend of mine got burned so bad by unannounced service discontinuances that it bankrupted him, well, one starts getting
the picture that this has a lot to do with attitude and not just product.

[Kirk Gittings]

one starts getting
the picture that this has a lot to do with attitude and not just product.

I get the feeling that they have just accepted the idea that film is a dead and that they are just riding the dribble of profits available till the perceived end.

[adam satushek]

Sooo.....anyone used Fuji color neg film recently? Any chance we can start getting it in 4x5 and 8x10 at a reasonable price here in the states?

[Drew Wiley]

It ain't that simple, Adam. Kodak stills offers a couple of flagship neg films in 8X10
(Portra 160 and 400) which probably have more commercial viability than Ektar. They
just aren't the films I personally use. The annoyance is that they barely wiggle their
toes into the water before they instantly retract something, and don't give it enough
time to do anything realistic. People are barely learning how to use this new film
correctly and are now forced into a group order or nothing. Yet the 4x5 size flies off
the shelf so fast at the local camera store that I have to keep extra in the freezer or
volume order it too. So its not like the emulsion per se isn't viable. It's more like Kodak
just deciding 8X10 is too old fogey for them. Not a good idea where just a handful of
forums like this one spread reputations and opinions almost instantly. And when is the
last time you ever heard an actual rep from EK or Fuji actually chime in to the discussion, if ever. But they're probably smart enough to stay clear of anything the
higher-ups have already made up their mind about. Yet over the last couple of decades
it doesn't seem to matter whether someone spends two hundred bucks a years on
Kodak products or two million - when they decide to change course for whatever
reason, tough luck on whoever previously supported them.

[adam satushek]

Thanks Drew....yeah I know its not simple...I just really wish it was.

[Drew Wiley]

There are a couple of reason why I like the Kodak sheet film in addition to the way color reproduces. The base is dimensionally stable, so maintains register using supplementary film masks. Fuji sheet films, on the other hand, are sometimes polyester
but sometimes unstable triacetate. Then the latest Kodak films have a special surface
to improve scanning, but what I like about it is that it suppresses Newton Rings fairly
well in contact masking frames as well as in an enlarging carrier. Just these factors
can save one a lot of time and money. It's premium stuff. So I have no motive to boycott them. Fuji seems to have ducked out of the color neg market here once Kodak
gained a conspicuous advantage. But if Kodak dries up completely some day, there
would be an incentive for someone to bring in volume neg film from Japan if Fuji USA
for some reason refused to do it. But the flaky behavior of Kodak prevents me from
trying things like their new glossy Endura papers. Sound interesting, but just about
the time one calibrates to them, the plugged could be pulled. Let's just hope that if
they belly-up and someone reorganizes them, they at least have a little personal
affinity for photography somewhere in their background.

[Frank Petronio]

I'm skeptical of any sort of employee ownership of a spun-off film company, mainly because I think Kodak's process is built around making massive quantities of film and it can't scale down the equipment. But also, if you were going to sell off the divisions like people say might happen, they are destroying a lot of the brand and connections by dropping products. Like was said before, there is a huge roll of TXP in Rochester and it is simply a matter of cutting and packaging it, another SKU item. The manager is probably simply reducing the number of SKUs based on some edict -- they aren't thinking of how to spin this off as a viable business.

The best we might get is something rebranded or "alliances" or something like the Impossible Project.

I'm going to buy a lot of 4x5, probably early but I bet we start seeing more items drop with every quarterly report.

[Roger Cole]

I have no problems with Ilford and would consider them a good option to Kodak. I've only shot about a half dozen sheets of Ilford FP4+, so I don't have a good understanding of it yet to adequately review it. I use their paper a great deal and respect them a lot.

I've shot Tmax400 since 1990ish and am quite comfortable with it and feel like I know it. Exploring other developer choices with Tmax400 in the past couple of year has made that relationship even better.

Efke I must have had a bad batch or something, but I tried to make a box of 50 4x5's work and had many quality issues on their pl50 film. Haven't been compelled to try it again in another size or speed. Foma is the cheap stuff I compared prices too. It's hard to resist with their Arista packaged prices. I buy the Foma paper too and like the paper. Their 100 film is capable of nice stuff in certain circumstances and I want to continue to wring that out. People like Nana and Gandolfi show what it can do and inspire persistence. I have some pinhole/emulsion issues I'm working out and next time I shoot it I will try another fixer to see if that's it; one change a time. I've already found Foma 100 likes PyrocatHD better than PMK, where Kodak works well in either. A stronger PMK mix might work, but that's not really the idea.

Ok, I was really just wondering about the previously un-named $4 film as that's close to the price of Ilford 8x10. Foma is not that much cheaper in Foma brand but of course you're right, the Arista stuff IS much cheaper. I have a single box of the 4x5 400 and have exposed a few sheets I've yet to develop. But if $7 is too much and Arista/Foma/Efke too unpredictable, Ilford is IME as consistent as Kodak and priced in between - which is kind of odd now that I price it out because Ilford 35mm and 120 are higher priced.


Meanwhile Kodak introduced two new photographic papers today. One color and one "metallic".

Really? In rolls only I presume? Sigh. But Maco Direct is apparently cutting down Kodak color rolls (at least some fo the current stuff) and re-packaging in sheet packs if one cares to pay the shipping from Germany. I may look into that as it may be viable.



My next concern is chemistry.

I use 95% Kodak chemistry.

I have found myself stocking up and keep a full case of: X-tol, Tmax RS, Dektol, D-76, Hypo Clear and Fixer at any give time.

As much as HP5 is a fine film, Kodak makes better chemistry (imho).

True that there are no direct substitutes for T-Max RS (which I use) or HC110, but there are plenty of other good black and white developers. Most of the other Kodak formula are available in other form. ID11 is the same (or close enough to the same) as D76. I use Kodak Rapid Fix but the only thing I'd give up by not having it is the option of a hardener for soft films as I can't find another that comes packaged with such, but a separate hardening bath is easy enough to whip up. Eco-Pro makes an Xtol clone and my guess would be it's a really good clone since Xtol isn't exactly a real secret. I already use Freestyle's "Legacy Pro" brown toner because Kodak only sells theirs in lifetime-supply gallon sizes and I can buy an 8 oz bottle of the Freestyle stuff, which works fine.

I can appreciate being standardized and not wanting to change but black and white chemistry isn't exactly going to be difficult even if Kodak vanishes. I'd also miss KRST but there are other selnium toners available. I use the Kodak mostly because I'm used to it and because as far as I've found all the others cost more.

[Brian C. Miller]

Sooo.....anyone used Fuji color neg film recently?

The only color negative film available through Japan Exposures is Fuji NC 160. That's it. One emulsion. Sure, if Kodak died, then it would be shipped over here, and Fuji might coat other emulsions on 4x5.

But consider this:
NC 160 - 4x5, 8x10 (from Japan)
160S - 220
Reala - 120
400H - 120

So what is going on with Fuji? It looks like there's a different emulsion for each size. As for how Fuji compares to Kodak, look at TwinLensLife (http://www.twinlenslife.com), as they did an informal comparison earlier this year.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I bet we start seeing more items drop with every quarterly report.The way those reports are going, a bigger risk is that the entire company gets dropped soon, not just individual items.

[Allen in Montreal]

I called my shop and asked to see how many boxes where available in Canada.

The distributor wrote back asking for more info, she has no item number for it in her system.

No wonder Kodak does not sell any product here anymore!

[rdenney]

The way those reports are going, a bigger risk is that the entire company gets dropped soon, not just individual items.

Doubtful. They could take a couple of years working through a Chapter 11 filing.

Rick "who hasn't seen very many big, publicly-owned companies put a padlock on the door Chapter 7-style" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

Unfortunately Roger, not just any ole b&w developer works for just any process. For
instance, losing a critical developer like HC-110 and TMRS for color separation and
masking work might require months of retesting with inferior results. It's not like general
shooting. These are proprietary developers and not easy to duplicate. The good news
is that a bottle of unopened HC-110 is probably good for at least a couple of decades,
and in this case not too expensive to stockpile. And so far, once Kodak has completely
bailed out of something, they've released the formulas (if anyone is left to do so).
As for film itself, although Fuji might have trimmed back their selection of color neg
offerings, they have the R&D capacity to seriously get back into the market if they
perceive a vacuum. It not fun guessing at which times Kodak is merely having heartburn and when it is having twitches preceding rigor mortis. But adapting is what
photography is all about, and even if one goes full digital there is no escape from that.

[Roger Cole]

I hear you Drew. I don't do those things (at this time) so they don't occur to me. For general shooting, yes, there are many developers available.

I'm sure Fuji could do a lot more if the market were there. Bringing back Astia takes NO R&D. ;) Bringing back a good type R paper along with it would be easy for them and make me very happy, but I know the market isn't there for it. Sigh.

I'm glad my main interest is conventional black and white with some interest in eventually getting into some older rather than newer alternative processes. I still plan to do C41 and RA4 while I can, hoping my schedule allows me to get around to it before it's impossible. Looking like a few months out at best right now. With the announcement of the death of Ilfochrome I'm seriously considering selling the sealed and box of 4x5 E100SW I have in the freezer rather than shooting it. :(

[Frank Petronio]

Only 65 boxes left in America! (or at least B&H)

Should we do a betting pool for the last day?

Three grand and you can monopolize it forever. That's a shot a day for almost two years.

[John NYC]

Really? In rolls only I presume?

Yes, really. And, no, in huge cases of sheets...

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/papers/ep/epMain.jhtml?pq-path=2300651

They also TODAY released a new daylight motion picture film...

http://www.shootonline.com/go/index.php?name=Release&op=view&id=rs-web3-8875133-1323880315-2

[John NYC]

Only 65 boxes left in America! (or at least B&H)

Should we do a betting pool for the last day?

Three grand and you can monopolize it forever. That's a shot a day for almost two years.

Until they box up that (mythical?) giant roll you were talking about.

[John NYC]

The only color negative film available through Japan Exposures is Fuji NC 160. That's it. One emulsion. Sure, if Kodak died, then it would be shipped over here, and Fuji might coat other emulsions on 4x5.

But consider this:
NC 160 - 4x5, 8x10 (from Japan)
160S - 220
Reala - 120
400H - 120

So what is going on with Fuji? It looks like there's a different emulsion for each size. As for how Fuji compares to Kodak, look at TwinLensLife (http://www.twinlenslife.com), as they did an informal comparison earlier this year.

Fuji's film division is an enigma. I'm being nice.

400H is a bizarre film with a nasty grain and green cast. Reala's color saturation is way too much for me. Provia is pretty good (but also has a strange purple cast) in 8x10 and at least you can get that here from B&H. I like 160NC as well.

Right now I shoot mainly E100G and Portra 400 in 8x10 for color work. I could live with just Fuji Provia or Fuji 160NC, but there is no way I'm going to pay the Japan Exposures price for 160NC. I'll just wait for Badger to import it again with a more sane price point, or switch to all b&w for large format, which is the minority of what I do currently in LF.

[Nana Sousa Dias]

I have no problems with Ilford and would consider them a good option to Kodak. I've only shot about a half dozen sheets of Ilford FP4+, so I don't have a good understanding of it yet to adequately review it. I use their paper a great deal and respect them a lot.

I've shot Tmax400 since 1990ish and am quite comfortable with it and feel like I know it. Exploring other developer choices with Tmax400 in the past couple of year has made that relationship even better.

Efke I must have had a bad batch or something, but I tried to make a box of 50 4x5's work and had many quality issues on their pl50 film. Haven't been compelled to try it again in another size or speed. Foma is the cheap stuff I compared prices too. It's hard to resist with their Arista packaged prices. I buy the Foma paper too and like the paper. Their 100 film is capable of nice stuff in certain circumstances and I want to continue to wring that out. People like Nana and Gandolfi show what it can do and inspire persistence. I have some pinhole/emulsion issues I'm working out and next time I shoot it I will try another fixer to see if that's it; one change a time. I've already found Foma 100 likes PyrocatHD better than PMK, where Kodak works well in either. A stronger PMK mix might work, but that's not really the idea.

I use Foma in 4x5 and 8x10 formats, indeed but, I do it just because of cost. If I could support it, I would use Tri-x or HP5 for 400 asa and Fuji Acros for 100 asa films...

Foma 100 is not bad for the price but it has an enormous failure of reciprocity. Very hard to use on landscape photography with low light.

[Roger Cole]

Yes, really. And, no, in huge cases of sheets...

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/papers/ep/epMain.jhtml?pq-path=2300651

They also TODAY released a new daylight motion picture film...

http://www.shootonline.com/go/index.php?name=Release&op=view&id=rs-web3-8875133-1323880315-2

Read that first link more carefully - that's paper for INK JET printing, which is claimed to have many of the characteristics of conventional paper.

[John NYC]

Read that first link more carefully - that's paper for INK JET printing, which is claimed to have many of the characteristics of conventional paper.

Maybe it was the wrong Endura I linked there...

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/12/14/4121518/kodak-leverages-innovative-imaging.html

Says "silver halide"... so is that still for ink jets?

[Roger Cole]

Maybe it was the wrong Endura I linked there...

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/12/14/4121518/kodak-leverages-innovative-imaging.html

Says "silver halide"... so is that still for ink jets?

Well that sounds like conventional paper sure enough.

The other link you posted is about Endura EP and says on the page:


Your professional work deserves to be shared in as many ways as possible. Features found in KODAK PROFESSIONAL ENDURA Media for traditional prints are now available in ENDURA EP, a premium double-sided, photo-quality press paper.

(Bolding mine.)

[Sal Santamaura]

Only 65 boxes left in America! (or at least B&H)...At the moment, Jeff still has 4 boxes

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=659,

but you'll need to pay for shipping. :)

I'm really surprised that 5x7 320TXP continues. B&H just received 20 boxes and Badger has 7. Unlike 8x10, which I can't find in stock anywhere except those two US retailers, there's 5x7 elsewhere, albeit at higher prices.


Until they box up that (mythical?) giant roll...I read the discontinuation announcement to indicate that there won't be any more 8x10 cut and packaged from master rolls. At least for now, Kodak is apparently cutting it down to 4x5 and 5x7 only. So, unless full, labeled 8x10 boxes already exist in the distribution pipeline, Frank is probably correct.

[John NYC]

Well that sounds like conventional paper sure enough.

The other link you posted is about Endura EP and says on the page:


Your professional work deserves to be shared in as many ways as possible. Features found in KODAK PROFESSIONAL ENDURA Media for traditional prints are now available in ENDURA EP, a premium double-sided, photo-quality press paper.

(Bolding mine.)

Yeah I clicked the wrong link on the Kodak site. I didn't realize they already had some papers called Endura in addition to the new Enduras.

Here is the correct link on Kodak's site for the new Endura Premier:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/papers/enduraPremier/enduraPremierMain.jhtml?pq-path=13318/13335/2301207

[Richard Mahoney]

John,


Fuji's film division is an enigma. I'm being nice.

400H is a bizarre film with a nasty grain and green cast. ...

Well I suppose it very much depends on what one likes. This was taken with a roll from a batch that was borrowed, unrefrigerated, expired, and greener than usual. And you know I'm very fond of it and would be terribly excited by the prospect of 400H in 4x5 ... so if a Fuji rep ever asks for your opinion I'd be grateful if you told a few fibs.

http://camera-antipodea.indica-et-buddhica.com/portfolios/portfolio-one/preparation/hounds/wugs-at-rest.jpg

Wugs - 35mm Fujicolor Pro 400H, Nikkor 35/1.4


Kind regards,

Richard

[John NYC]

John,



Well I suppose it very much depends on what one likes. This was taken with a roll from a batch that was borrowed, unrefrigerated, expired, and greener than usual. And you know I'm very fond of it and would be terribly excited by the prospect of 400H in 4x5 ... so if a Fuji rep ever asks for your opinion I'd be grateful if you told a few fibs.

http://camera-antipodea.indica-et-buddhica.com/portfolios/portfolio-one/preparation/hounds/wugs-at-rest.jpg

Wugs - 35mm Fujicolor Pro 400H, Nikkor 35/1.4


Kind regards,

Richard

Yes, we all have different preferences... its what makes the world go round.

I like that photo, by the way.

The only thing certain in our uncertain world of film is that no one from Fuji is ever going to come ask me my opinion.

[Frank Petronio]

....Frank is probably correct.

At last!

Merry Christmas Sal, let's start the new year out fresh and new!

[Jan Pedersen]

I'm really surprised that 5x7 320TXP continues. B&H just received 20 boxes and Badger has 7. Unlike 8x10, which I can't find in stock anywhere except those two US retailers, there's 5x7 elsewhere, albeit at higher prices.

Adorama does have TXP320 5X7 in stock and are also still shipping 8x10

[Sal Santamaura]

...Frank is probably correct.


At last!...Frank, I never have (and never will) claim you're incorrect except when what you've posted is wrong. :)


Merry Christmas Sal, let's start the new year out fresh and new!And a happy impending solstice to you, Frank. Fresh, new years always hold promise.

Let's hope the coming year is a good one for Kodak too. On the other hand, my favorite bumper sticker said: "I feel much better since I gave up hope." :D

[Sal Santamaura]

...I'm really surprised that 5x7 320TXP continues. B&H just received 20 boxes and Badger has 7. Unlike 8x10, which I can't find in stock anywhere except those two US retailers, there's 5x7 elsewhere, albeit at higher prices...


Adorama does have TXP320 5X7 in stock and are also still shipping 8x10Adorama isn't normally on my radar screen, for reasons historical and not appropriate to discuss here. Nonetheless, I did attempt to check their stock status before posting yesterday.

5x7 320TXP is, as I mentioned, available from multiple sources. Adorama's inventory management system's integration with its on-line retailing system is less than elegant. :) I'd first attempted to place a huge number of 8x10 320TXP boxes in my shopping cart. It enforced no limit; there were 1,000 when I clicked "Checkout." Doing that resulted in a message roughly saying "...due to demand, we're out of stock and don't know when we'll get more." I assumed (bad idea) that this was merely a slight improvement on the old Adorama situation where one was not told at all and allowed to back order items without knowing. In other words, when it said they were out of stock, they were out of stock.

Today I tried a different approach. Put just one box in cart. Proceed to checkout. No message. Go back and increment to 2 boxes. Proceed to checkout. Still no message. Repeat until 16 boxes in cart. "Out of stock" etc. appears. So, at least as I'm typing this, there are also 15 boxes of 8x10 320TXP at Adorama.

It's interesting to note that the Adorama software has a "check valve" of sorts with respect to that out-of-stock message. Lowering the number in one's cart from 16 down to even 1 won't make the message go away. Clearing all cookies and starting again permits checking out with 15 boxes. Great system! :D

[Jan Pedersen]

Not the best inventory control agreed. But, Adorama have for some time had the best prices on film and often free shipping.
At the end of 8x10 TMY-2 as we know it i bought quite a bit of my film from them and they were consistently quick to update a ship why i wanted to mention them.

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

"I feel much better since I gave up hope."

Well, Dante revisited hehehehe

[mcfactor]

If Kodak stops producing 8x10 c-41 (as they clearly will do eventually), there will be no source in North America for 8x10 c-41 film. That is crazy.

[Gene McCluney]

If Kodak stops producing 8x10 c-41 (as they clearly will do eventually), there will be no source in North America for 8x10 c-41 film. That is crazy.

When that happens, IF Fuji still makes C-41 and E-6 emulsions, I expect to see their presence in the USA grow stronger. I think Fuji has intentionally kept some products away from North America due to respect for Kodak, but now, its different. Afterall, they will then be (with only miniscule exceptions) the Sole provider of C-41 and E6.

[Jan Pedersen]

I believe Kodak and Fuji have made an agreement and posted about that a couple of years ago.
Fuji will stay on the positive side and Kodak on the negative side :rolleyes:

[Herb Cunningham]

It might be of interest to the posters in this thread that the CEO of Kodak was voted
worst CEO in America by a guy on CNBC. He is a marketing guy and has no clue about techincals.

[Frank Petronio]

Everyone in Rochester hates him, he is pretentious and is driven in a Bentley. He hates Rochester too.

George Fischer used to work out in the downtown YMCA with me. The earlier CEOs were Mormon Boy Scout leaders who were genuinely good people. This Antonio Perez is a greedy ass.

[John NYC]

When that happens, IF Fuji still makes C-41 and E-6 emulsions, I expect to see their presence in the USA grow stronger. I think Fuji has intentionally kept some products away from North America due to respect for Kodak, but now, its different. Afterall, they will then be (with only miniscule exceptions) the Sole provider of C-41 and E6.

Yes and certainly one company having a practical monopoly can make it profitable even if it is a niche part of their business. But then again. We are talking about corporations here who have other goals than providing actual value to film photographers.

[Drew Wiley]

I've never heard of any formal agreement between Fuji and EK. But I assumed that at
a certain point they mutually figured out that neither one of them was making any
money constantly fighting over the same buck. So EK went forward concentrating on
color neg film while Fuji retained dominance with E6 film. They still fight over the paper
market, and Kodak still makes a very fine chrome film, even though Fuji's share seems
larger. Everything would change if Kodak stumbles, but even a bankrupty wouldn't
automatically change what does or does not continue to be marketed - it all depends
on the philosophy of whoever purchases the leftovers. They could be either smarter
or dumber than who's there now, or could chop up things and sell them in pieces
resulting in either catastrophe for film supplies or even an improvement. None of us
has a crystal ball telling us exactly what will happen.

[Drew Wiley]

Herb & Frank - you know the saying in the old days, how a captain with honor would
go down with the ship. Nowadays the captain is the guy who deliberately sinks the
ship so he can loot it going down, and then throws everyone else out of the life raft
too.

[Allen in Montreal]

From what I see,
He should be the one driving the Bentley for someone.
Not being driven.
:-0







Everyone in Rochester hates him, he is pretentious and is driven in a Bentley. He hates Rochester too.

George Fischer used to work out in the downtown YMCA with me. The earlier CEOs were Mormon Boy Scout leaders who were genuinely good people. This Antonio Perez is a greedy ass.

[Brian C. Miller]

Compared to Kodak, Fuji doesn't offer squat for color negative film.
According to Fuji's page (link (http://www.fujifilm.com/products/films/color_negative_films/index.html)), they have three color negative emulsions, total. One of which is available in sheet film.
According to Kodak's page (link (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/colorNegativeIndex.jhtml?pq-path=1230)), they have four color negative emulsions, three of which are available in sheet film. One size in 8x10 is being made special order, so $15,000 buys 1500 sheets, which doesn't mean that it's going to be completely dropped.

If someone has actual retail sales information, like from a real store, then that would be informative. Otherwise none of us has a clue what's being bought, and in what quantity.

I did a quick search on previous comments regarding Ektar. When it was introduced two years ago, everybody was hopeful it would be produced in LF sizes, or pessimistic. Now that it's been out for one whole year in sheet sizes, 8x10 is being made special order.

Interview with Scott DiSabato, Inside Analog Photo podcast, Oct. 2010:
(at this time, they've been spam-hacked, so watch what you click on their pages)

Black and white has been a really strong performing part of the portfolio. And in the last couple of years it has emerged as the largest part of the Kodak professional portfolio, so it's the largest film type that we now sell, which is great. And it makes a lot of sense. Black and white is really quite special, and digital doesn't even come close to trying to replicate the tonality and nuances and the grain structure in the image tonality itself, as opposed to being added on top of density values. So it's very tangible, people can go in the darkroom and work with it. And I think as an art form it lends itself very nicely to black and white images to film. They just go together. So to answer your question, yeah, while we're always looking at ways to become more efficient, and it's important for the entire portfolio that we continue to do that, the more efficient we remain, the longer we can offer a great range of products that we have. But when there is some inefficiency sometimes we need to just change the way we go about doing things. And I think the 8x10 announcement that we made at the end of the year is really one of those. We may have talked in the past about the fact that a dealer that orders product and it goes out of date and they end up losing money on it, or God forbid, throwing it out, then they will not order that product again unless they've got someone who will put money down for a case of that. And I think that's what we've been finding that as a stocked item the 8x10 doesn't make as much sense as it used to. And that's 'cause the volume and frequency has gone down over the years. That's fine. Our commitment to the film, though, is still there, we're just trying to figure out better ways to connect passionate 8x10 users with someone that is going to order that product. And it's not necessarily sitting on a dusty shelf in a town somewhere that used to have an 8x10 photographer that is no longer shooting that format or something. So we've sort of run into those issues, so, what we've done over the past year is we've started working with a camera manufacturer, Canham Cameras, and he has expressed interest in trying to consolidate on a world-wide level the demand of product which Kodak no longer stocks, but would like to make. We've had these special order programs for years and years, it's just hard for individual dealers and photographers to meet those minimums that we have. Kodak is set up for maximum efficiency, we have sorta touched on that before, and how important that is. When we have to sort of change the efficiency of our manufacturing flow by doing one-offs or special order items, we need to make it worth our while to interrupt the desire to be efficient, so we ask for the pretty hefty minimum of $15,000 worth of product to make that happen. So what Canham cameras is doing is collecting for sizes that we no longer stock or maybe never stocked. I mean, they're trying to collect enough for formats such as 20x24 or 7x17, other ultra-large format sizes. So he already has enough to already get the TMax 400 8x10 order in our system, so we're already there. So the order's already out there, you can buy from Canham Cameras to meet the needs of your customers, and I think there could be a different price scale if you were a photographer and wanted to buy directly from Canham Cameras. But I'd encourage you to go directly to the website there. And I believe it's CanhamCameras, one word, and there's an order form there, and you'll see that he has orders that he's collecting. So it's a change, but as long as we continue to make the emulsion and base combination, and we're able to get a $15,000 order together, Kodak will make virtually any product out there. That's kind of where we stand. So just a month, month and a half after the discontinuance, we already have a order for the TMax 400 in 8x10. So I want to thank everybody out there that kind of rallied together to place that order, but we may have to do more creative things like that in the future when the demand for stocking these materials is no longer reasonable but we can still do special orders on a less frequent basis and that tends to be better for Kodak to make sure that all the product we make is sold before expiration and the same think for dealers. They're really only buying it in this way if they have users for it. So, disappointing, maybe, if you're an 8x10 photographer that was able to get the TMax film by just walking in to one of the few dealers that was actually stocking it, but great news that we're still continuing to make this product and it just has to be consolidated a little bit better.

Kodak is doing what they said they'd do last year. Buy it over the shelf, or else get together for a special order. The volume is down, and even not enough for a regular special order. If people switch to Ilford for their ULF, that's fine by Kodak. If they have you over a barrel for your color, then you'll get together with Canham.

What's really got me worried is, "in the last couple of years it has emerged as the largest part of the Kodak professional portfolio, so it's the largest film type that we now sell," which infers that Kodak professional color sells less than B&W. And Kodak is still the leader for color film.

[Drew Wiley]

More of a PR quotation there and not really an indicator of the real-world fate of certain desirable 8x10 films. TMY 400 is going to be fairly popular, so there has already been two or more custom cuts made for group purchases. But even TMX 100 is going
to be quite hard to pool enough together to achieve an order. I was lucky to get the
leftover from an industrial order where a single customer bought almost the entire lot
of 8X10; but for all I know, that might last them a decade and no one else will have
the pull to meet the minimum. And that's my concern with Ektar too. Portra might be
wonderful when skintones are involved, but I don't want all my analogous shades in
nature turning into "pleasing skintones" rather than crisp hues. I'd be shooting chromes
except Ciba is now ending, and I'm surprised it's lasted this long.

[Nana Sousa Dias]

He is a marketing guy and has no clue about techincals.


More or less the same problem we had with last 3 prime ministers, here, in Portugal....:D

[Ari]

It's getting harder and harder to keep track of the discontinued emulsions.

[Frank Petronio]

I wonder what color neg manufacturing capability exists in China? Doesn't (or didn't) Lucky brand make color neg for Chinese consumers using technical help from Kodak?

I think they might be a lot of hobby large-format photographers in China, maybe more than anywhere else? Not sure but they must make a lot of Shen-Haos and Chamonixs, they have very nice glossy photo magazines and big photo forums.

Maybe a Chinese company could buy Kodak, Chuck Schumer could help make a free-trade zone or something?

[Roger Cole]

I believe Kodak and Fuji have made an agreement and posted about that a couple of years ago.
Fuji will stay on the positive side and Kodak on the negative side :rolleyes:

But Kodak still has excellent color positive films, even one in LF (although, while listed in 4x5, I wasn't able to actually find any E100G 4x5 in stock.)

Fuji and neg film, well...


I've never heard of any formal agreement between Fuji and EK. But I assumed that at
a certain point they mutually figured out that neither one of them was making any
money constantly fighting over the same buck. So EK went forward concentrating on
color neg film while Fuji retained dominance with E6 film. They still fight over the paper
market, and Kodak still makes a very fine chrome film, even though Fuji's share seems
larger. Everything would change if Kodak stumbles, but even a bankrupty wouldn't
automatically change what does or does not continue to be marketed - it all depends
on the philosophy of whoever purchases the leftovers. They could be either smarter
or dumber than who's there now, or could chop up things and sell them in pieces
resulting in either catastrophe for film supplies or even an improvement. None of us
has a crystal ball telling us exactly what will happen.

It's hard to imagine how they could be any dumber! :eek:

[Tom J McDonald]

I wonder what color neg manufacturing capability exists in China? Doesn't (or didn't) Lucky brand make color neg for Chinese consumers using technical help from Kodak?

I think they might be a lot of hobby large-format photographers in China, maybe more than anywhere else? Not sure but they must make a lot of Shen-Haos and Chamonixs, they have very nice glossy photo magazines and big photo forums.

Maybe a Chinese company could buy Kodak, Chuck Schumer could help make a free-trade zone or something?

Lucky are making C-41 colour film again, in 35mm and 120 sizes. Maybe they will make sheets too.

EDIT: I can't find anything about 120, but you can buy 35mm rolls 600m long. :) http://www.luckyfilm.com/html/product/mastersite/en/2010/8/17/164230_35.html

[Tom J McDonald]

Also you can buy X-ray film in all the right sizes...
http://www.luckyfilm.com/html/product/mastersite/en/2010/8/17/16525_31.html

[georgl]

How much does a master roll from Kodak roughly cost? TMZ/TMY2/Color ?

I think I read the size is 54" (137cm) x 1000-4000feet (300-1200m) that would translate into roughly 8000-32000 sheets of 8x10" ?

I think Kodak should start direct marketing with an online-shop, sending exotic film worldwide directly from Rochester. German dealers for example want twice as much for color sheets than US-dealers!

Putting production to China would only create new problems - we have tried it in other industries as well...

[ljsegil]

Film holders would get even heavier to truck around with that Chinese lead added to the film emulsion.
LJS

[Sevo]

I wonder what color neg manufacturing capability exists in China? Doesn't (or didn't) Lucky brand make color neg for Chinese consumers using technical help from Kodak?

Going by their own publicity Lucky is now making LCD panel laminates - a process similar enough to film casting that it has gobbled up quite a few film production plants.

But China being a major (if not the biggest global) remaining market for film (only the small stratum of its new middle class has the budget to upgrade to digital) they must still have some source for CN film left - there certainly is fresh Lucky labelled film about. Perhaps Lucky did not convert all production lines, or another maker has jumped in.

[Roger Cole]

Going by their own publicity Lucky is now making LCD panel laminates - a process similar enough to film casting that it has gobbled up quite a few film production plants.

But China being a major (if not the biggest global) remaining market for film (only the small stratum of its new middle class has the budget to upgrade to digital) they must still have some source for CN film left - there certainly is fresh Lucky labelled film about. Perhaps Lucky did not convert all production lines, or another maker has jumped in.

I haven't seen Lucky color film for sale anywhere, but I have a roll of 35mm ISO 200. In a discussion on APUG I was asking where it might be available here because I was wondering about a CN film with a much more subdued saturation than anything I'm aware of anymore, a pastel looking film for some things. Someone had a roll in his freezer and sent it to me free. According to him it's in date. I'll be interested in seeing the edge markings once I shoot and process it.

[Brian C. Miller]

More of a PR quotation there and not really an indicator of the real-world fate of certain desirable 8x10 films.

The ultimate fate of all film emulsions is that they will go away. Paul Simon's pleas notwithstanding, Kodachrome is gone. The near-term fate of specific formats is decided $15,000 at a time, now. That being the case, what the Kodak rep said has been, and continues to be, put into practice.


It's getting harder and harder to keep track of the discontinued emulsions.

But it's so easy to keep track of the available, in stock, B&W 8x10 emulsions! Zero is an easy number to remember.


I wonder what color neg manufacturing capability exists in China? Doesn't (or didn't) Lucky brand make color neg for Chinese consumers using technical help from Kodak?

Lucky makes one or two color negative emulsions. They also make B&W LF film. Yes, they could coat color negative LF. Now which would you want more, Lucky or Fuji? If you want to sample the product, buy some on eBay.

[Sal Santamaura]

This morning's remaining 8x10 TXP count:

Adorama - still 15 boxes
B&H - down to 37 boxes
Badger - 18 boxes (14 that were in the distribution pipeline apparently reached Jeff)

[Allen in Montreal]

In fairness to the distributor, they "found" the last 2 boxes of 8x10 txp and are shipping them today.

Still a shitty way to run a business.





I called my shop and asked to see how many boxes where available in Canada.

The distributor wrote back asking for more info, she has no item number for it in her system.

No wonder Kodak does not sell any product here anymore!

[Sal Santamaura]

...So, unless full, labeled 8x10 boxes already exist in the distribution pipeline...


...14 that were in the distribution pipeline apparently reached Jeff)The status shown at Freestyle

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8179707-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-iso-8x10-10-sheets-TXP?cat_id=404

suggests that Kodak or distributors may indeed have more boxes of finished 8x10 320TXP still working their way through the supply chain. Whether or not Freestyle actually receives any on January 6 remains to be seen.

Even if this isn't the "last hurrah," it's probably pretty close.

[jp]

I just ordered enough to reduce B&H's inventory to 21 boxes. Now, let the hoarding commence.

[urs0polar]

I just walked over to B&H today and bought 2 320TXP 8x10 boxes and 1 Ektar 100 in 8x10. Looking at the numbers next to the word "total" on the receipt, I realize why I usually come home with Ilford...

[Kevin Crisp]

Because you love those convenient 10 sheet boxes?

[John NYC]

This morning's remaining 8x10 TXP count:

Adorama - still 15 boxes
B&H - down to 37 boxes
Badger - 18 boxes (14 that were in the distribution pipeline apparently reached Jeff)

I stand corrected on my earlier prediction!

[urs0polar]

Because you love those convenient 10 sheet boxes?

Yeah no kidding. Only 30 shots of two films i've never used in 8x10. I spent a crapload buying the last 5 rolls of Kodachrome on eBay before Christmas last year (and a crapload on Fedex to get them to Dwayne's in time). I wouldn't trade it for anything though; I had never shot kodachrome until then and I was glad I got the chance to -- I would probably be shooting it exclusively if it were still around. I didn't get my first film camera until 2008; oh well.

I wish Kodak wasn't so boneheaded. Maybe the CEO wants the company to die so he gets his golden parachute sooner. I mean, compete with Asia on consumer inkjet printers and low cost point and shoots? What an idiot. It can't be said enough.

[Roger Cole]

The ultimate fate of all film emulsions is that they will go away. Paul Simon's pleas notwithstanding, Kodachrome is gone. The near-term fate of specific formats is decided $15,000 at a time, now. That being the case, what the Kodak rep said has been, and continues to be, put into practice.



But it's so easy to keep track of the available, in stock, B&W 8x10 emulsions! Zero is an easy number to remember.



Lucky makes one or two color negative emulsions. They also make B&W LF film. Yes, they could coat color negative LF. Now which would you want more, Lucky or Fuji? If you want to sample the product, buy some on eBay.

Yahbut, Kodachrome is gone 37 years after Paul asked for it to stick around, and only after E6 films caught up in quality (if not duplicating the look) and convenience, had their hayday, negative films caught up with both, and digital came along. Not a bad run.

And there are plenty of available, in stock, black and white 8x10 emulsions, just not Kodak ones. This "in stock" refers to mail order dealers, of course. Even though I started in photography in the 70s and LF in the 90s I've never lived anywhere I could walk in and buy large format sheet film. Ok, I lived in Knoxville briefly in college in 81 but wasn't into LF then, and back in Elizabethton TN I could have bought a few limited emulsions by driving to Bristol TN/VA, at one time a single store in Johnson City, but for the most part it's always been mail order for me, now Internet order.

I didn't want to lose Kodachrome and don't want to lose Kodak but the loss of Kodak would impact color far more than black and white.


Yeah no kidding. Only 30 shots of two films i've never used in 8x10. I spent a crapload buying the last 5 rolls of Kodachrome on eBay before Christmas last year (and a crapload on Fedex to get them to Dwayne's in time). I wouldn't trade it for anything though; I had never shot kodachrome until then and I was glad I got the chance to -- I would probably be shooting it exclusively if it were still around. I didn't get my first film camera until 2008; oh well.

I wish Kodak wasn't so boneheaded. Maybe the CEO wants the company to die so he gets his golden parachute sooner. I mean, compete with Asia on consumer inkjet printers and low cost point and shoots? What an idiot. It can't be said enough.

Kodachrome was superb, but it died because people quit using it, for reasons that made sense at the time. By the 80s E-6 was getting very good, and in most even medium sized cities you could get same day processing, or do it yourself easily enough. E-6 just kept getting better. I remember well when Kodachrome was the saturation champ. Eventually things like Velvia came along to make Kodachrome look moderately saturated in comparison. Kodachrome had a unique look, a great balance with Ilfochrom/Ciba, excellent archival properties at least in dark fading resistance, but it lost its status as grain and saturation champ, and was far less convenient than E6, even more expensive if you did your own E6. There were such a wide selection of excellent and far more convenient E6 films that it just fell from favor. Sad, and I wish I had used more of it "back in the day" when I was shooting up tons of E6. I just can't lay the blame for the death of Kodachrome at Kodak. They probably kept it alive longer than it actually made business sense to do so. Sad, I agree.

It's hard to argue they aren't being pretty "bone headed" in much else, though.

[Drew Wiley]

Roger - who is dumb or not just depends on the persepctive. I've had numerous face
to face meetings with mfg CEO's who were unbelivably dumb about the product lines
they purported to represent, but who nonetheless lived like kings reigning with a heavy
hand over companies they which were simultaneously bankrupting, and then they
move along and do it again to someone else after receiving some obscene golden
parachute. So in their warped minds, I guess they think they are pretty smart. To them it's all about who ends up with the most loot personally, not about running a
company sucessfully. The peers they are trying to impress are likeminded. Why do
I get involved with such types - simply so I know which brands to carry and which
to dump as quickly as possible!

[Sal Santamaura]

Because you love those convenient 10 sheet boxes?While the 10-sheet packaging decision was not good for us, it should be noted that two full, sealed inner envelopes comfortably fit in the box. Immediately upon receipt, I combine them to have 20-sheet boxes. Not quite 25 sheets like Ilford, but equally efficient use of freezer space compared to Fuji.

[Kevin Crisp]

It seemed to me a nuisance, and given the cost of packaging, certainly not something done for any reason I could understand.

[urs0polar]

While the 10-sheet packaging decision was not good for us, it should be noted that two full, sealed inner envelopes comfortably fit in the box. Immediately upon receipt, I combine them to have 20-sheet boxes. Not quite 25 sheets like Ilford, but equally efficient use of freezer space compared to Fuji.

That is a great idea; I'm going to do that. I'm so new to 8x10 that I don't have any boxes to put the color neg into yet to send to get developed. But... now, I do. Thanks Sal!

[John NYC]

That is a great idea; I'm going to do that. I'm so new to 8x10 that I don't have any boxes to put the color neg into yet to send to get developed. But... now, I do. Thanks Sal!

Dude, you could always borrow one from me!

[georgl]

I know these managers and CEOs very well and yes, in their "warped minds" they don't even notice what they're doing, most of them even think they done good!

Don't forget two things:

Kodak hast THE state-of-the-art production facility for film in Rochester, the same quality from eastern europe or China? Seriously? Right now im ruining my 8x10 film with beginner development - but loosing a shot because the production uses slave labor instead of skilled, experienced craftsmen?

Kodak films are excellent, both their design and quality consistency, even their E100G is IMHO up to Fujis strong slide-films (when you're looking for a Provia-replacement), their B/W-films and CN-films are THE golden standard! Ektar, Portra, T-Max 400, Vision3...

There is need for film and it seems relatively stable (I'm not sure how quick they have to react to digital cinema) - and Kodak can lead that market IMHO, all we need now is a new owner for Kodak with a long-sighted vision - instead of some stupid managers and shareholders...

How much is Kodak worth on the stock-market right now? A few million $? How much are their non-film brands and patents worth? Would somebody please buy it? Somebody who is willing to think long-sighted? Reinvesting profits?

[John NYC]

How much is Kodak worth on the stock-market right now? A few million $? How much are their non-film brands and patents worth? Would somebody please buy it? Somebody who is willing to think long-sighted? Reinvesting profits?

They have massive liabilities in their pension plan, etc. It would probably take Kodak going Chapter 11 or 7 before someone would buy that mess I would guess.

[Frank Petronio]

Toxic sludge seeps between the rock layers into the Genesee River Gorge... one RIT MFA student developed film in the straight river water. Which we eventually drink.

Kodak, it's in our blood.

Watch some EPA edict deliver the killing blow.

[MDR]

Frank was that a joke or did this really happen and the question when did this happen.

Dominik

[Frank Petronio]

Yes it was part of a Master's thesis for a RIT photo student about ten years ago. To Kodak's credit, it was probably run-off from farms that does most of the River's pollution but it makes a great story.

[cdholden]

They have massive liabilities in their pension plan, etc. It would probably take Kodak going Chapter 11 or 7 before someone would buy that mess I would guess.

This, in addition to the recent end of motion picture camera production, was the death knell for at least their film division. One could argue that there are still many cameras in use, but the production line points to digital. Cinemas will be forced to convert to digital if they want the new releases. Cooperation between Technicolor and Deluxe to split market share reeks of impending doom for motion picture film. The only thing that keeps this from being called collusion is the fact their plan includes subcontracting each other's services, so there is no secrecy or deception.

[goamules]

Yeah, I went to a digital remaster of West Side Story, a TCM live stream in the Cinemark theater. After about 20 minutes, the digital feed started jumping, skipping, choking. They turned on the lights and we sat in the theatre for about 20 minutes before the girl came out and said there was a problem, and refunded our money. In 100 years of film cinema, I bet people weren't sent home too many times. You swap out a bulb, or entire projector, and you're running again.

[Ben Syverson]

I've been in the audience when a film projector broke down a few times, and every time they stopped the show and sent people home with refunds. Those projectors are not easy to swap out.

It's sacrilege for me say this, but I prefer a digital projection to normal (non-scope) 35mm projection. A 35mm release print is a dupe from an internegative that was made from an interpositive that was made from the original negative. Or, more likely these days, the negative is scanned at 2k, messed with on the computer, printed to internegative, and then duped to a release print. In either case, a run of the mill digital 2k projector will produce a nicer image.

I still believe in film for "acquisition" (read: photography). If you look at the HBO show Boardwalk Empire, you can see a compelling case for shooting film even when the end result is compressed 720p. Film simply looks better.

[Jay Decker]

This morning's remaining 8x10 TXP count:

Adorama - still 15 boxes
B&H - down to 37 boxes
Badger - 18 boxes (14 that were in the distribution pipeline apparently reached Jeff)

Have a question for the people who are buying up the last 8x10 TXP, is a sheet of TXP really worth 60% more than a sheet of Ilford HP5 to you, and why?

http://monkeytumble.com/tmp/kodak_v_ilford.jpg

[E. von Hoegh]

Have a question for the people who are buying up the last 8x10 TXP, is TXP really worth 60% more that a sheet of Ilford HP5 to you, and why?

http://monkeytumble.com/tmp/kodak_v_ilford.jpg

As much as I like TXP 320, it isn't worth twice the price. I find that I can make good 8x10 contact prints with most any film/developer combo that I use enough to know.
I still have some of the old Tri-x sheet film from the 80s ( some ortho, even!), been frozen at about -5f all these years. I've never used the emulsion that replaced it in sheet film.

[Allen in Montreal]

Jay,

Yes and no!

I can only speak as a small volume 8x10 shooter.
5x7 and 120 are my preferred. I started to give up on
Tri-x and TXP a while back. HP5 is a great film too and is my main film now.
HP5 in pyro is great!

But TXP is still my favorite for portraits of men.
And for gritty dirty street scenes. it is great in the studio with flash. It has it's own look.
Worth the extra $$. For that use yes. For general shooting. No.

I bought the last boxes of 8x10 here. I bought all the 120 TXP I could get in Canada when that was cut off too.

I don't buy tri-x in 35mm anymore at all. It really is not a very good film anymore when compared to HP5.

Not too many years ago I was anti Ilford.
Kodak forced me to realize just how good HP5 really is.
:-(

PS: I am sure others will have a "sweet spot" story why they like TXP in their application, but that is my sweet spot use.
I know TXP has a only until my stock runs out, then, it will history for me. I won't pay the increased special order prices for the stuff.

[jp]

I bought some, not price shopping against ilford.

A year ago, TMY2 went from roughly $55/box on closeout at b&h, freestyle, etc.. Then was $62 at Canham, now is $77, which is a little steep for me. I would bet tri-x would do the same. Kodak makes good film, but it's a tough sell at $8/sheet for B&W. I'll put enough in the freezer so I can enjoy it at $5-6/sheet and when it's gone, probably Kodak will be gone, and I'll have started learning Ilford film better.

[Sal Santamaura]

Have a question for the people who are buying up the last 8x10 TXP, is a sheet of TXP really worth 60% more than a sheet of Ilford HP5 to you, and why?...I already answered that question:


...While I've filled a freezer with lots of 5x7 and 100 sheets of 8x10 320TXP, that's mostly because the emulsion's characteristic curve is such a good match to the thousands of 8x10 Azo sheets I stockpiled years ago. Also, the retouchable back coating completely eliminates any concern about Newton's rings when contact printing...In other words, for that purpose, yes. :)

[goamules]

I've got a question, before it's all discontinued. If anyone reading this thread uses Kodak color negative film, where do you get wet darkroom prints made? Every one of the few remaining shops I call just scans and does an inkjet print. Can't I mail a color negative anywhere for an old fashioned color print?

[Allen in Montreal]

I've got a question, before it's all discontinued. If anyone reading this thread uses Kodak color negative film, where do you get wet darkroom prints made? Every one of the few remaining shops I call just scans and does an inkjet print. Can't I mail a color negative anywhere for an old fashioned color print?

There is only one shop left in Montreal to my knowledge.
Being the only one left, he is actually very, very busy, his perseverance has paid off for him.

[Frank Petronio]

I've got a question, before it's all discontinued. If anyone reading this thread uses Kodak color negative film, where do you get wet darkroom prints made? Every one of the few remaining shops I call just scans and does an inkjet print. Can't I mail a color negative anywhere for an old fashioned color print?

Edgar Praus 4photolab.com/ does real color prints

[urs0polar]

Dude, you could always borrow one from me!

haha true!

[urs0polar]

Have a question for the people who are buying up the last 8x10 TXP, is a sheet of TXP really worth 60% more than a sheet of Ilford HP5 to you, and why?


Jay,
It's worth 60% more since I've never shot it and I want to at least try it before it's gone. Other than that, you have hit the nail on the head as to why I haven't tried it until now.

I'm the exact opposite of Allen in Montreal regarding 35mm... I think tri-x is the best looking B&W film (especially for my old 50/1.5 Summarit; it's just right for that lens). Hp5+ is great too though for all of my 35/120/4x5/8x10 stuff.

Panf 50 is even better lol (how come they don't make panf 50 in LF? That stuff is awesome).

[Fred L]

Wow, BH down to 11 boxes of 8x10 now.

[jp]

Wow, BH down to 11 boxes of 8x10 now.

Wow. all gone. That didn't take long!

[Jan Pedersen]

As the numbers come down wallets come up.
When the 8x10 TMY-2 was announced to be a non production SKU a little over a year ago it took only about 24 hours before the shelves were cleaned from the major stores.
Hopefully there will be some TXP320 arriving from the pipeline so all that can afford get a chance to put a little in the freezer.

[goamules]

Edgar Praus 4photolab.com/ does real color prints

Thanks Frank. I checked their site last week, but saw something on the site about "We no longer do machine prints in color or black and white" and I didn't get it.

[Frank Petronio]

Right, "machine" as in automated ones from a subcontracting mini-lab that he'd do for wedding photographers who want dirt cheap prints. The mini-lab gave up the ghost.

[Tom J McDonald]

I heard Agfa aero film can be ordered in sheets in large quantities.

http://www.agfa.com/en/sp/solutions/aerialphotography/color/index.jsp

[Sal Santamaura]

Current remaining 8x10 TXP count:

Adorama - Can't tell. They must be reading this thread and changed their on-line system. :) It now permits me to put 2,500 boxes in the cart, then proceed to checkout without any out-of-stock message. Probably no more than the 15 boxes they had at last check.

B&H - 0 boxes

Badger - 13 boxes

[Visions]

Thank you.

[Brian C. Miller]

Hopefully there will be some TXP320 arriving from the pipeline so all that can afford get a chance to put a little in the freezer.

But if you shoot 4x5, B&H has over 155 50-sheet boxes of TXP320 in stock. There are over 350 10-sheet boxes of Ektar in stock. In neither case is the emulsion itself going away. If you want to have some fun, go for it! I bet you own a camera format that isn't 8x10, and Tri-X is just waiting for you to use it. Now. Right now! Move! Move! Move! There are photographs that must be made!

I mean, seriously, if you haven't shot Tri-X at all by now, when will you shoot it? How many decades ago was this emulsion introduced? (Wikipedia: 1940. Over 70 years ago!) If there is enough demand for the 8x10 size, it will definitely be available through a special order, no problems there. Pony up the money and wait. Kodak calls it, "World’s best-selling black-and-white film." So you shouldn't have to wait long for an 8x10 order to be filled.

And if you haven't ever used Tri-X, you won't miss it, just like I don't miss Kodachrome.

[John Kasaian]

The value of TXP for me was that I could trust it,just as I could trust the great company that manufactured it.
Things change, don't they?

[Allen in Montreal]

The value of TXP for me was that I could trust it,just as I could trust the great company that manufactured it.
Things change, don't they?

Hear Hear.
I still trust the guy who punches his card at 8am and lays the emulsion down and cuts it.

Just not the buffoon who signs his pay cheque.

[Frank Petronio]

Brian's point is that if you like it, step up and buy it. Kodak didn't cut it arbitrarily - it cut their slowest sellers.

While I think their decision is short sighted, as having a consistent product portfolio is important for the value of the brand and to maintain loyalty, the fact remains that not enough people were buying it.

[Roger Cole]

The value of TXP for me was that I could trust it,just as I could trust the great company that manufactured it.
Things change, don't they?

FWIW, you can trust Ilford too. I've shot a lot of Ilford film over the years with never a problem.


Brian's point is that if you like it, step up and buy it. Kodak didn't cut it arbitrarily - it cut their slowest sellers.

While I think their decision is short sighted, as having a consistent product portfolio is important for the value of the brand and to maintain loyalty, the fact remains that not enough people were buying it.

True, but I think what galls some people about this is that the emulsions are clearly popular in other sizes so they will continue to make them, and they make the base for other LF films. All they are doing is refusing to cut and package it in 8x10 absent a large special order. It would seem they could do, say, one batch a year and sell it easily, given how quickly these sold out.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone been tracking remaining 8x10 Ektar?

[Jan Pedersen]

Looks like 58 boxes at B&H and 1 box at Badger Graphics. Did not check Adorama and Freestyle.

[John NYC]

Looks like 58 boxes at B&H and 1 box at Badger Graphics. Did not check Adorama and Freestyle.

According to an earlier post (#142) B&H was at 11 boxes yesterday. I guess you really can't trust their system either, or else they just got another shipment in. I wonder how many more shipments there will be. For all we know maybe Kodak has another 1,000 boxes sitting in Rochester waiting to be ordered.

[Jay DeFehr]

How does a company continue to offer a product no one is buying? One way is to convince the feds you're offering a public service, like Amtrak did, and ask for federal assistance, so you can continue to operate an obsolete business model. I don't think Kodak can make that argument, so changing their business model is a more reasonable approach, and the special order model seems like a step in the right direction. As a mass producer of perishable goods, Kodak's business is similar in many ways to that of the Dutch floriculture industry, with their growers, wholesalers and retailers. As production of flowers moves to places with better climates and lower production costs, the Dutch industry has adapted by eliminating the wholesalers and turning its focus from production to trading and genetics. As the world becomes ever more connected, there is less need for wholesalers and middlemen, and the factory direct model becomes more viable. There is very little value added by mandating special orders go through a retailer, and the added expense makes Kodak less competitive. A SPOC for Kodak special orders would focus the now diffuse orders so that they could have a faster cycle time, and a transparent order count/ estimated date of order completion could help buyers plan their inventories. This is a good lesson for those who adhere to the overly simplistic belief that in a commodity market, price goes down with demand.

[Jan Pedersen]

According to an earlier post (#142) B&H was at 11 boxes yesterday. I guess you really can't trust their system either, or else they just got another shipment in. I wonder how many more shipments there will be. For all we know maybe Kodak has another 1,000 boxes sitting in Rochester waiting to be ordered.



John, The numbers i posted are for 8x10 Ektar as a response to Roger Coles question in post 154
Perhaps you were thinking TXP320?
I should have been a little more clear on that.

[Sal Santamaura]

Current remaining 8x10 TXP count:

Adorama - Can't tell. They must be reading this thread and changed their on-line system. :) It now permits me to put 2,500 boxes in the cart, then proceed to checkout without any out-of-stock message. Probably no more than the 15 boxes they had at last check.

B&H - 0 boxes

Badger - 13 boxes


...Just out of curiosity, has anyone been tracking remaining 8x10 Ektar?


Looks like 58 boxes at B&H and 1 box at Badger Graphics. Did not check Adorama and Freestyle.


According to an earlier post (#142) B&H was at 11 boxes yesterday. I guess you really can't trust their system either, or else they just got another shipment in...Jan's above-quoted post was an answer to Roger's question about remaining stock of 8x10 Ektar 100. All earlier status posts, including mine from last evening, addressed 8x10 320TXP. B&H's system is completely trustworthy.

As of right now, Jan's status remains correct for Ektar 100. With respect to 320TXP, Adorama is still indeterminate, B&H is still out of stock and Badger is down to 8 boxes.

All that said, we indeed don't know how much, if any, already cut and finished 8x10 Ektar 100 or 320TXP remain in the distribution pipeline. Only time will tell.

[John NYC]

John, The numbers i posted are for 8x10 Ektar as a response to Roger Coles question in post 154
Perhaps you were thinking TXP320?
I should have been a little more clear on that.

Ah, my bad.

[Fred L]

sorry, my post about 11 boxes was re: TXP 8x10 and now shows "temporarily out of stock"

[rdenney]

Roger - who is dumb or not just depends on the persepctive. I've had numerous face
to face meetings with mfg CEO's who were unbelivably dumb about the product lines
they purported to represent, but who nonetheless lived like kings reigning with a heavy
hand over companies they which were simultaneously bankrupting, and then they
move along and do it again to someone else after receiving some obscene golden
parachute. So in their warped minds, I guess they think they are pretty smart. To them it's all about who ends up with the most loot personally, not about running a
company sucessfully. The peers they are trying to impress are likeminded. Why do
I get involved with such types - simply so I know which brands to carry and which
to dump as quickly as possible!

I generally defend our system as being the least-bad way of making everybody more wealthy. But I agree with this perspective--we undermine the potential of our own system. One thing I would like to see: No member of a corporate board and no corporate officer could serve on a corporate board or as an officer for a five-year period after a bankruptcy. Every state requires those directors and officers to be disclosed in the annual state corporate filing--and that's every corporation from, not just the publicly traded corporations that the SEC oversees. Bankruptcy ruins the credit rating of a consumer for 5-7 years--it ought to ruin the corporate management credentials of a professional CEO, too, for a similar period. Let him serve time as a middle manager again, and again have to be responsible for making his group look good.

And the corporate directors and officers should be last in line for compensation during a bankruptcy, after their creditors, workers, pensioners, and taxes are paid. And if a bankruptcy court reduces such payments to pennies on the dollar, the directors and officers should get paid a smaller percentage.

Another thing that would help: Tax dividends at the same rate as capital gains. Don't much care what that rate is--that's a different argument. But make it so that companies can serve their stockholders by being profitable and paying dividends rather than only by focusing on growth. That would slow down the growth-by-acquisition craze, and cool the jets of the market-makers who (until two years ago) insisted on 30-40% annual top-line growth before considering the stock a good buy. This would make it possible to be considered successful wtih a company exhibiting sustainable profitability rather than unsustainable growth.

This isn't enforceable in any legal sense, but I would like to see a trend in corporate boards back in the direction of selecting technical experts as CEOs. There's too much of a management good-old-boy network where CEOs and directors select each other from the same pool. One lesson we ought to learn from Steve Jobs: Effective CEOs know enough about their customers, products and technologies to set a bold but realistic vision for them. Nothing is more frustrating as a technical expert in a corporation than to be afraid to let your CEO talk to your clients for fear of making the whole company look like amateurs. It doesn't matter how expert CEOs are in corporate accounting or Harvard Business School-style finance if they can't get through an elevator speech on the company's latest product without making their own experts cringe in embarassment. Been there, done that.

Rick "who'd like to load his 401K with funds of high-dividend stocks, but can't really find any" Denney

[Brian Ellis]

. . . Another thing that would help: Tax dividends at the same rate as capital gains. Don't much care what that rate is--that's a different argument. . .

Rick "who'd like to load his 401K with funds of high-dividend stocks, but can't really find any" Denney

George Bush beat you to it. Qualified dividends have been taxed at capital gains rates since 2003 except for individuals in the 10% and 15% brackets. They receive dividends tax-free (originally 5%, zero percent since 2005). A qualified dividend is basically a dividend on any stock held more than 60 days (oversimplification but close enough for present purposes) so most dividends on stocks purchased as an investment are qualified dividends.

[Renato Tonelli]

320TXP in 5x7

Is it being discontinued? Tried the Kodak site but it lists it as available. I have had two local (NYC) vendors telling me that it is being discontinued. I wouldn't be surprised as I suspect that there is even less demand for 5x7 than 8x10.

Drew: you've hit the nail on the head; Quick profit at the expense of all else.

[Sal Santamaura]

...With respect to 320TXP, Adorama is still indeterminate, B&H is still out of stock and Badger is down to 8 boxes...There's no longer any doubt about 8x10 320TXP at Adorama; they've posted an out-of-stock message right on the product's Web page:

http://www.adorama.com/KK416481010.html

As of this morning, Badger is out of stock too. I know of none available anywhere in the US, though there might be more working its way to retailers.


320TXP in 5x7...Is it being discontinued? Tried the Kodak site but it lists it as available. I have had two local (NYC) vendors telling me that it is being discontinued. I wouldn't be surprised as I suspect that there is even less demand for 5x7 than 8x10...I also previously expressed surprise about 5x7's continued availability as a stock item. I don't know how much longer that status will hold. B&H currently has 18 boxes and Badger 7. It's available elsewhere too. Until Kodak actually releases a discontinuation announcement, the supply chain will probably keep delivering it.

[Sal Santamaura]

The way those reports are going, a bigger risk is that the entire company gets dropped soon, not just individual items.


Doubtful. They could take a couple of years working through a Chapter 11 filing...We might find out fairly soon whether it'll be 7 or 11 and, if 11, how long working through it will take:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/marketnewsvideo/2011/12/19/eastman-kodak-shares-dip-on-funding-report-suit-news/

[Jim Andrada]

I ordered 4 boxes from Badger yesterday and I got a shipment advice this AM with tracking number and all - nothing about out of stock, although they did have a discontinued notice on their web page.

Edit: I just checked again and now they are showing Out of Stock/Discontinued

[Sanjay Sen]

Freestyle's website (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8179707-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-iso-8x10-10-sheets-TXP?cat_id=404) says "This item is currently out of stock. Approximate delivery date from vendor: Jan 06, 2012." If that is correct, there may be some stock somewhere in the supply chain.

[Jim Andrada]

In my real business we deal with "end of life" components all the time. Suppliers ALWAYS give adequate notice of their intention to withdraw a product or component and a final date to place a last order.

Just suddenly saying something is gone really SUCKS!!!! I've worked with some folks at Kodak on a couple of projects and they were always great people to deal with. How times have changed!!!!

[John Kasaian]

The reason why hardly no one is buying 8x10 TXP is that at $54.95 for a 10 sheet box few people can afford it compared to Ilford or the eastern european emulsions. Even Ilford, which is over $100 for a box of 25 is more attractive---I'd rather pay a bit less for five more sheets of quality film and 50% less packaging. YMMV of course, but I'm not stocking up on the 8x10 yellow stuff. No way.:p

[Jim Andrada]

I have no intention of really stocking up either - just getting enough to last until I decide which other film I like best. Although I've always liked Tri-X a lot. Seems (at least to me) to have more "depth" than other emulsions. Oh well, been here before - used to use Ansco until that disappeared.

How would you compare the various Ilford emulsions? Not sure that's really off topic as I wouldn't be switching if K hadn't made me.

[Drew Wiley]

Everyone's film and paper is going up significantly. In fact, everything involving petrochemicals, shipping costs, and energy pricing is suddenly "snapping" after a long
period of relative stability and or artificially low competitive pricing. It's not just photo
products. I like the Kodak YMY not just for the curve shape but for resistance to scratching etc - so it might actually be cheaper than some of the alternates for me
because less shots are wasted. But still it hurts, and I've had to soften the blow by
shooting 4x5 more often rather than 8X10, at least for those instances the degree of
enlargement won't make a significant difference. Meanwhile, those of us who are forced to hoard 8x10 in the freezer will be purchasing less of it later, as we consume
our reserves. According to rumor, it was all the last minute volume hoarders of Ilford
film and paper who pushed Forte over the cliff, back when Ilford looked in trouble. Even with alternate sources, there's only so much net demand.

[jp]

Of interest to those curious about the business of 8x10 film and Kodak...

Here's a packing slip B&H left on the 10-box brown box of Tri-x I received today.

Looks like B&H orders 200 boxes and gets it in two shipments. 300 boxes can go on a pallet (30 brown boxes).

Looks like B&H ordered 140 boxes in October, and it took Kodak a month to fulfill the order, and it came from Georgia not Rochester. Then B&H sold it out in about three weeks. (probably would have taken longer to sell it for sure if there were less gloom and doom about Kodak) The address in Georgia is for Ryder logistics; a shipping/trucking company.

http://www.midcoast.com/~jp/kodakpack.jpg

[Sal Santamaura]

Freestyle's website (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8179707-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-iso-8x10-10-sheets-TXP?cat_id=404) says "This item is currently out of stock. Approximate delivery date from vendor: Jan 06, 2012." If that is correct, there may be some stock somewhere in the supply chain.Yes, I pointed that out four days ago in post #112:


The status shown at Freestyle

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8179707-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-iso-8x10-10-sheets-TXP?cat_id=404

suggests that Kodak or distributors may indeed have more boxes of finished 8x10 320TXP still working their way through the supply chain. Whether or not Freestyle actually receives any on January 6 remains to be seen...


The reason why hardly no one is buying 8x10 TXP...I'm not sure how you quantify "hardly no one." I've been watching this closely for over a year. During that time, at B&H at least, more boxes of 8x10 320TXP have moved than boxes of 4x5 320TXP. Yes, one box has ten sheets and the other 50, but I'd say sales have been relatively brisk for such a niche format as 8x10.


...Even Ilford, which is over $100 for a box of 25...You're buying Ilford 8x10 film at the wrong place(s). :)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/24751-REG/Ilford_1629228_HP5_Plus_8x10_25.html

[jp]

How would you compare the various Ilford emulsions? Not sure that's really off topic as I wouldn't be switching if K hadn't made me.

That'd be an interesting topic and service to the board. It's important enough that it deserves it own thread.

[SamReeves]

I think I saw on B&H that a "special order" was 249 boxes?

Holy film holders Batman.

[John Kasaian]

Yes, I pointed that out four days ago in post #112:



I'm not sure how you quantify "hardly no one." I've been watching this closely for over a year. During that time, at B&H at least, more boxes of 8x10 320TXP have moved than boxes of 4x5 320TXP. Yes, one box has ten sheets and the other 50, but I'd say sales have been relatively brisk for such a niche format as 8x10.

You're buying Ilford 8x10 film at the wrong place(s). :)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/24751-REG/Ilford_1629228_HP5_Plus_8x10_25.html

I was including shipping;)

[Sal Santamaura]

I was including shipping...Still too high. $93.41 total including $6.25 UPS Ground shipping to the west coast. :)

[Allen in Montreal]

I have started to "hoard" some basic Kodak supplies I want to have around for a long time to come. My store ordered some Hypo Clearing Agent for me today, the minimum quantity is 20x 5 gallon bags (or 2 boxes of 10 bags).

That is fine for big shops, but how many smaller retailers won't take any product for fear of having it on the shelf for a very long time.



CEO takes $50,000 a pop corp jet trips for vacations.

Frank, I am sure they gave all the workers in Rochester one free vacation trip on the Corp jet too as they kicked them out the door, right?? :( :(

http://blogs.reuters.com/mediafile/2011/10/21/struggling-kodak-had-to-pay-for-ceos-vacations-in-spain/

[Sal Santamaura]

Freestyle's website (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8179707-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-iso-8x10-10-sheets-TXP?cat_id=404) says "This item is currently out of stock. Approximate delivery date from vendor: Jan 06, 2012." If that is correct, there may be some stock somewhere in the supply chain.Replenishment looking more likely now. Freestyle has updated that page

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8179707-Kodak-Tri-X-Pro-320-iso-8x10-10-sheets-TXP?cat_id=404

to indicate an approximate delivery date of December 29.

[Curt]

I'm not waiting for the one sheet boxes, I'm stocking up now, time to place another order for Ilford film.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Kodak blew it years ago IMO. I stopped supporting them when they gave up on the LFF and ULF community. I mean 10 sheet boxes and crazy prices! Really. IMO forget them and support manufactures that support our community.

[Allen in Montreal]

Kodak blew it years ago IMO. I stopped supporting them when they gave up on the LFF and ULF community. I mean 10 sheet boxes and crazy prices! Really. IMO forget them and support manufactures that support our community.

This what I keep saying to myself, and I do for most of my film, but it is hard to make a clean and total break. :(

[John Kasaian]

I'm not waiting for the one sheet boxes, I'm stocking up now, time to place another order for Ilford film.
One sheet boxes, LOL!
Letsee, say I "stock up" with five boxes of Kodak. Thats the equivalent of two boxes of Ilford at over twice the price! And that is after waiting for the supply chain to catch up to the dealer.
I can work just fine with Ilford and Arista.

To paraphrase Alphonso Bedoya in Treasure of The Sierra Madre:
"Kodak? Kodak? What Kodak?
I don't need no stinkin' Kodak!" (sadly:( )

[Drew Wiley]

John - it was just out your back door when I decided to stock up on Kodak. There was
some incredible afternoon light one Feb reflecting off the vernal pools in one of the fields between Madera and Hensley Lk. I was running out of my beloved Bergger 200 and needed speed. FP4 would have been too slow, so I shot HP5. Got a decent print, but those go to the trash. Just not enough separation in the shadows without blowing out the delicate highlights. TMY would bag a shot like that no issue. Arista 200 would
have had a 50/50 chance of having scratches on it, and in the real world is only about
1/4 the speed of TMY. Gotta go with what works, or no savings regardless.

[dsphotog]

I gotta think, if he were here to see what has become of his empire, George Eastman would be really pissed.

[mikebarger]

Or...he would have been a lot better at transitioning the company to new technology.

Mike

[Greg Blank]

LOL, you mean you never used ready loads ;)


I'm not waiting for the one sheet boxes, I'm stocking up now, time to place another order for Ilford film.

[Greg Blank]

You know he commited sucide right ? .....maybe he was prescient.


I gotta think, if he were here to see what has become of his empire, George Eastman would be really pissed.

[Roger Cole]

I have started to "hoard" some basic Kodak supplies I want to have around for a long time to come. My store ordered some Hypo Clearing Agent for me today, the minimum quantity is 20x 5 gallon bags (or 2 boxes of 10 bags).

Just FYI, HCA is one chemical it probably makes the least sense to stockpile. Others make the same thing under various names, sometimes with pretty much inconsequential variations in the formula, and it's silly-easy to mix yourself. All you really need is sulphite and water.

[dsphotog]

You know he commited sucide right ? .....maybe he was prescient.

Perhaps the current CEO should follow Georges example.......

[Frank Petronio]

George was rumored to have been a closeted homosexual, having a long term relationship with Henry A. Strong, the first president of Eastman Kodak Company. The corporation adopted gay-friendly policies early on, yet was managed by Mormons.

I always found that interesting that everybody got along so well even though you would think it would have been scandalous in its day. It just shows you that a lot of times history focuses on the hate and discrimination, while ignoring the progressive and enlightened parts of society.

He died in 1932, and according to Wikipedia:


In his final two years, Eastman was in intense pain, caused by a degenerative disorder affecting his spine. He had trouble standing and his walking became a slow shuffle. Today it might be diagnosed as lumbar spinal stenosis, a narrowing of the spinal canal caused by calcification in the vertebrae. Eastman grew depressed, as he had seen his mother spend the last two years of her life in a wheelchair from the same condition. On March 14, 1932, Eastman died by suicide with a single gunshot to the heart, leaving a note which read, "My work is done. Why wait?" It is a local myth that George Eastman's body, which was buried in Kodak Park against his personal wishes, is still preserved due to the amount of Kodak chemicals in the ground.[7]

I'd say he even did that right, with a single, well-placed shot. Not an easy thing to do.

My sister, as a Cornell student studying to be a landscape architect, tended his grave at Kodak Park during the Summer of 80-81. That's my connection to George.

Anyway, he had 50 post-mortum years that were pretty successful, and it's only been 30 years that the company has been in decline. Taking three decades to fail, especially after all the dumbass things they did from the Disc Camera to PhotoCD to Adobe kicking their butts to being a decade late with the inkjets using technology they invented... well that just shows you how freaking large they were. First they helped restore, then they had to compete with the entire Japanese photo industry, not just one or two companies. Remember that Kodak led the world for patents many times, and all of the digital imaging, color science, inkjets, litho printing, photo editing software is based on a lot of Kodak R&D.

[Greg Blank]

Nah sucide is probably too good. How about tarring and feathering :D Or fixing before stopping!


Perhaps the current CEO should follow Georges example.......

[Allen in Montreal]

Just FYI, HCA is one chemical it probably makes the least sense to stockpile. Others make the same thing under various names, sometimes with pretty much inconsequential variations in the formula, and it's silly-easy to mix yourself. All you really need is sulphite and water.

Roger, you are very right.

I am just a creature of habit I guess. The fewer things I change at once the better and 20x 5 gallon bags will keep me held over for a while. :) :)

[Sal Santamaura]

There's no longer any doubt about 8x10 320TXP at Adorama; they've posted an out-of-stock message...Badger is out of stock too...there might be more working its way to retailers...Still no stock at Adorama or Badger, but B&H received more. Currently 93 boxes available:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533812-USA/Kodak_8179707_TXP_4164_8x10_Tri_X.html

[Brian C. Miller]

I was just at Glazer's Camera (http://www.glazerscamera.com/), and Tri-X was in stock! They also have lots of Fuji Acros 100 in 4x5, 20-sheet boxes. There were six boxes of Tri-X in the fridge, and I grabbed three, at $55 a box. Also, the guys behind the counter said that Kodak hadn't notified them of the Tri-X discontinuance. And they also didn't know about the Canham special order process. *sigh*

[Sal Santamaura]

I was just at Glazer's Camera and Tri-X was in stock!...There were six boxes of Tri-X in the fridge, and I grabbed three, at $55 a box...Their on-line commerce system is well integrated with their inventory control system. Going there now permits putting only 3 boxes of 8x10 320TXP in one's cart. You wiped out half their stock. :)


...the guys behind the counter said that Kodak hadn't notified them of the Tri-X discontinuance. And they also didn't know about the Canham special order process...I read somewhere a while ago that Kodak cut out all but the largest retailers from direct factory purchases, requiring others to buy through distributors. Perhaps Glazer's falls into that category and therefore didn't receive the announcement. Or it did, but simply failed to tell the counter staff.

Canham is essentially a direct-ordering dealing with Kodak, so it's not surprising that Glazer's wouldn't be spreading word of his special orders.

[Brian Ellis]

I was just at Glazer's Camera (http://www.glazerscamera.com/), and Tri-X was in stock! They also have lots of Fuji Acros 100 in 4x5, 20-sheet boxes. There were six boxes of Tri-X in the fridge, and I grabbed three, at $55 a box. Also, the guys behind the counter said that Kodak hadn't notified them of the Tri-X discontinuance. And they also didn't know about the Canham special order process. *sigh*

I worked as "the guy behind the counter" for a while when I was thinking of buying a camera store. Nobody told me anything. If a customer wanted to know about product discontinuances, availability, or anything like that I was definitely not the person to ask.

[Sanjay Sen]

Still no stock at Adorama or Badger, but B&H received more. Currently 93 boxes available:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/533812-USA/Kodak_8179707_TXP_4164_8x10_Tri_X.html

Now down to 80.

[Sal Santamaura]

Now down to 80.And it'll stay there at least until sunset in New York today.

[jp]

Now 85 boxes at B&H. Perhaps all the people that want it and can afford it have now stocked up?

[Sanjay Sen]

That's interesting. On Saturday evening when B&H started accepting online orders, the number of boxes had gone down to 75 or 76. So they either received more boxes, or some folks cancelled their orders.

[Sal Santamaura]

Now 85 boxes at B&H. Perhaps all the people that want it and can afford it have now stocked up?I don't think so; probably just a holiday interruption. Down again (to 74 boxes) as this is written. Adorama and Badger still out of stock. Glazer's continues to have 3 boxes.


That's interesting. On Saturday evening when B&H started accepting online orders, the number of boxes had gone down to 75 or 76. So they either received more boxes, or some folks cancelled their orders. I don't know why that temporary uptick occurred (small additional delivery from Kodak?), but the film is selling again now.

[Sal Santamaura]

Current 8x10 320TXP status:

Glazer's - still 3 boxes
Adorama - still out-of-stock
B&H - down to 36 boxes
Badger - just received 50 boxes

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=659

I have no special information, but wonder whether there can be any more in the pipeline. Again, time will tell.

[jp]

Canham wrote on Facebook yesterday:
as of january 1st 8x10 TriX has gone to special order status. if you are interested in starting a co-op please contact us. we are assuming it will require about 220 boxes total. no price yet, but please contact us if you are interested.

[mikebarger]

Well, there's an out for those of you that love this film. Good to see someone step up.

[Dan95]

Shucks.. Was planning on going 8x10. Guess i have to stick to 4x5..

[Riccis]

Shucks.. Was planning on going 8x10. Guess i have to stick to 4x5..

Please don't make this the reason not to shoot 8x10 since Ilford is as good as Kodak, IMHO... It's all I've been shooting and love it.

Cheers!

[Allen in Montreal]

Canham wrote on Facebook yesterday:
as of january 1st 8x10 TriX has gone to special order status. if you are interested in starting a co-op please contact us. we are assuming it will require about 220 boxes total. no price yet, but please contact us if you are interested.

I can't see this happening for a long while, everyone who shoots it has bought up as much as they could and filled the freezer already. :)

[Drew Wiley]

Each of us has our favorite films and reason to stockpile this or that. But losing a
particular film or even one entire manufacturer should not discourage anyone from
backing off 8x10 black and white. There are still plenty of excellent choices available
when it comes to film. Change is inherent to photography, but sheet film per se isn't
even close to becoming obsolete as this point.

[dsphotog]

Now the company he founded is suffering a lingering death.......

[mikebarger]

Please don't make this the reason not to shoot 8x10 since Ilford is as good as Kodak, IMHO... It's all I've been shooting and love it.

Cheers!



When I went to LF from MF the issue with 8x10 film convinced me to move to 4x5. It's a decision that has worked out well for me.

[Jim Andrada]

Kodak Chapter 11???

Below is quoted from today's online Wall Street Journal

Eastman Kodak Co. is preparing for a Chapter 11 bankruptcy-protection filing in the coming weeks should efforts to sell a trove of digital patents fall through, people familiar with the matter said.

The struggling photography icon, which employs about 19,000 people, is in discussions with potential lenders for around $1 billion in so-called debtor-in possession financing that would keep it afloat during bankruptcy proceedings, the people said. A filing could occur as soon as this month or early February, one of the people said.

A Kodak spokesman said the company "does not comment on market rumor or speculation."

[Tom J McDonald]

'People familiar with the matter'.

Stinky writing.

[John NYC]

Kodak Chapter 11???

Below is quoted from today's online Wall Street Journal

Eastman Kodak Co. is preparing for a Chapter 11 bankruptcy-protection filing in the coming weeks should efforts to sell a trove of digital patents fall through, people familiar with the matter said.



I wonder who would be the potential buyers for those patents? Some articles suggest that it would be a phone maker. But Apple has tons of patents of their own to defend their stuff. Google has been on a patent buying spree and is now buying patents for future thinking ideas (like self-driven cars), indicating they think their trove is big enough to defend against potential lawsuits.

The whole patent system is completely broken and needs to be thrown away and reworked.

[Jim Andrada]

Kodak does have a lot of patents on digital sensors etc. They have had a lot of really sharp people working there over the years. About 10 years ago I was involved with a company that was considering a partnership with Kodak on high capacity optical tape - we visited them in Rochester and I was pretty impressed with the crew there. Project never happened though probably the story of Kodak itself - great people but stuff just never seemed to happen

[John NYC]

Kodak does have a lot of patents on digital sensors etc.

Yes, but who needs those patents is my point? Canon and Nikon are the only two players with money, and they have a trove of patents themselves. Mainly patents are used as a weapon these days to get injunctions on other companies and generally to play hard ball. And if you have a boatload of similar patents, that attack tactic won't work. Remember, the bozos in the patent office for a couple decades issued patents for just about every common sense technical idea out there... and separately in 200 different variants.

[Jim Andrada]

I think the whole idea of software patents is a disaster. Or design/process patents. Heck I bet if every one holds a clipper in their right hand to trim their toenails you could get a patent on the breakthrough idea of holding it in your left hand and another for the even bigger breakthrough of holding it in your teeth.

[rdenney]

Yes, but who needs those patents is my point? Canon and Nikon are the only two players with money, and they have a trove of patents themselves.

Pentax, for one. Hasselblad, for another. Both use (or have used) Kodak sensors.

Rick "noting that neither Canon nor Nikon have I interest in sensors larger than 24x36" Denney

[John NYC]

Pentax, for one. Hasselblad, for another. Both use (or have used) Kodak sensors.

Rick "noting that neither Canon nor Nikon have I interest in sensors larger than 24x36" Denney

Yes but I made the statement that potential buyers need to have money. Pentax and Hasselbad probably don't have a billion or half billion in cash laying around?

[Drew Wiley]

Heck, a billion ain't nothin. If they merely tapped into the golden parachutes paid out
to every CEO who wrecked an American company in the last few years, they could get
ten times that amount, not to mention hedge fund mgrs who are betting against the
system anyway.

[Sal Santamaura]

Current 8x10 320TXP status:

Glazer's - still 3 boxes
Adorama - still out-of-stock
B&H - down to 18 boxes
Badger - still 50 boxes

I suspect when B&H runs out and its free shipping offer is no longer a draw, Jeff will begin to see his stock move quickly.

[rdenney]

Yes but I made the statement that potential buyers need to have money. Pentax and Hasselbad probably don't have a billion or half billion in cash laying around?

Didn't the Ricoh acquisition bring some money into the Pentax picture?

Rick "thinking Ricoh is big in copiers and probably has much a much bigger top line than Nikon" Denney

[John NYC]

Didn't the Ricoh acquisition bring some money into the Pentax picture?

Rick "thinking Ricoh is big in copiers and probably has much a much bigger top line than Nikon" Denney

Is Pentax a public company? I can't find it to see what they are worth.

[vinny]

Current 8x10 320TXP status:

Glazer's - still 3 boxes
Adorama - still out-of-stock
B&H - down to 18 boxes
Badger - still 50 boxes

I suspect when B&H runs out and its free shipping offer is no longer a draw, Jeff will begin to see his stock move quickly.

Sal, what are you (and your crystal ball) going to do with all your spare time once TXP is gone?

GO OUT AND SHOOT!
I'm at work with nothing to do, that's my excuse.

[MDR]

I believe Nikon is owned by Mitsubishi a much larger corporation than Ricoh.

The Ricoh homepage has some info including capitalization http://www.ricoh.com/about/company/data/

[John NYC]

I believe Nikon is owned by Mitsubishi a much larger corporation than Ricoh.

The Ricoh homepage has some info including capitalization http://www.ricoh.com/about/company/data/

Ok so like I said then they don't really have the money. They are 1.75 billion USD total capitalization. Kodak was originally hoping to get 2-3 billion for the patents. Though if they ever sell.

[dsphotog]

If a company goes bust, who will enforce its patents?
Why buy them?

[rdenney]

If a company goes bust, who will enforce its patents?
Why buy them?

It won't go bust to that extent. It will exist as a holding company merely to collect license fees, if nothing else. There are lots of companies that exist solely to collect on the IP of what they used to produce.

Even in a Chapter 7 liquidation, the IP is part of assets that will be liquidated. Somebody will buy it. They may not have to pay very much for it, though.

Rick "not previously aware that Mitsubishi owned Nikon" Denney

[jp]

You can have some interesting partners prop up your company to enforce patents. None of it is beneficial to the patent holder's customers. It just keeps the name on life support for a while.

Microsoft-connected funds propped up SCO (a dead software company having patents allegedly used in linux) which sued random deep pocket linux end-user customers. The propped up company then just becomes a disposable pawn in silly patent lawsuits, which created FUD news meant to sway technology choices.

The MS connected funds in this case likely did it to reduce competition for Microsoft. Microsoft wouldn't have been allowed to do it because of anti-trust issues.

IBM bought up a bunch of tech patents from failed dotcom companies to avoid such fighting in the future as IBM is heavy on opensource and was a big target for similar lawsuits.

In other words, if Kodak exists just for patents, things could get ugly and film would be an afterthought. Better hope the sell or spin off the film biz.

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, what are you (and your crystal ball) going to do with all your spare time once TXP is gone?...GO OUT AND SHOOT!...I don't have a crystal ball. Everything I've posted is either factual observation or speculation concerning what's left.

There's another thread right now about freezers. My decision, after having looked into a dedicated film freezer, was that it wouldn't be worth the floor space, cost (acquisition and energy) or trouble for me. Instead, I negotiated with my wife to "split up" volume in the freezer compartment of our regular refrigerator-freezer. Then I concluded that, for the most part, 5x7 320TXP was the best film to bank.

As a result, just yesterday, I removed an inner door and shelf in the ice tray area to accommodate even more boxes. There are now 1,800 sheets of 5x7 and 100 sheets of 8x10 320TXP in the freezer. An additional 126 sheets of 5x7 remain in the refrigerator compartment. And we can still store all the food our cooking/eating habits require. Seems like a good compromise, especially since I haven't found any film that better matches the thousands of sheets of Azo I stockpiled when that final batch was sold.

Starting and posting status updates to this thread hasn't taken very much time. I'll keep shooting, as I have been doing all along, with a variety of formats when all the 8x10 320TXP is gone from stores. I will continue to rely on Ilford for film, mainly FP4 Plus, as well as paper, and count on the frozen Kodak and Azo if/when all other options disappear from the market. Many people enjoy alternative processes, including coating their own plates, but that doesn't appeal to me. I'd much rather GO OUT AND SHOOT. :D

[Allen in Montreal]

..........

As a result, just yesterday, I removed an inner door and shelf in the ice tray area to accommodate even more boxes. There are now 1,800 sheets of 5x7 and 100 sheets of 8x10 320TXP in the freezer. An additional 126 sheets of 5x7 remain in the refrigerator compartment..........

Wow!
This makes me feel better about my own stockpiling habits, thank you! :) :)

[JC Kuba]

I guess special order co-ops with Kodak is even more of a crap shoot now. Even if there's enough demand to order something from Kodak, you can't be sure you'd get your film after sending them your money.

[Drew Wiley]

Sounds risky, Sal ... I go all my film booted out of the kitchen. Then I got a nice big
freezer set up in the lab bldg. So now instead of my wife buying one turkey at a time
she buys two and squeezes one between color paper boxes; or instead of buying one
big bag of frozen shrimp, she buys four at a time. When it comes time for me to make another volume film or paper purchase, I start discussing how I'm in the mood for a
turkey dinner!

[John Conway]

It was all over the news this morning, about Kodak going chapter eleven. The reports mentioned how ironic it is that Kodak actually kicked off the digital tidal wave that will eventually wash them away.

[Armin Seeholzer]

They should discountinuate mister Perez, this would be most succesfully!

And start again with 50 or at least 25 sheets peer box!

But maybe its better they are gone, then can Fuji survive including the Quickloads!
Thad would be nice. But I really would miss XTOL!

Cheers Armin

[John NYC]

But I really would miss XTOL!


Huh. I never thought about that. I get all my film in all formats processed at labs here in New York. Every lab I have been to uses XTOL as their standard. Many don't offer any alternatives. Wonder what they all would switch to?

[Jan Pedersen]

As far as i know and i don't know much :) Kodak does not make Xtol and other chemicals anymore, they are made buy a company which name eludes me at the moment.
If the demand is there i don't see why they can not continue to make the product, it may change name but that is a minor issue.
Xtol i believe can be made from scratch should it disapear.

[Songyun]

3 boxes left in BH

[Sal Santamaura]

3 boxes left in BHNot any more. Current 8x10 320TXP status:

Glazer's - still 3 boxes
Adorama - still out-of-stock
B&H - now out-of-stock
Badger - still 50 boxes

I hope Jeff enjoys the drawdown of his inventory that will likely happen next. :)

[Jim Andrada]

http://ireport.cnn.com/topics/726798?hpt=hp_bn1

This from CNN online - sad!

[Richard M. Coda]

Kodak Announces Agreement to Sell Eastman Gelatine Subsidiary (http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Announces_Agreement_to_Sell_Eastman_Gelatine_Subsidiary.htm)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they sell their gelatin operation, doesn't that mean that they are out of the film business?

[BrianShaw]

I don't own a gelatin factory but I can buy truckloads of Jello. So could they.

[Tom J McDonald]

Ilford probably doens't own a gelatin company.

[BarryS]

In December 2000, 50 sheets of 8x10 Tri-X was worth 2 shares of Kodak stock. Today, 50 sheets of 8x10 Tri-X is worth 742 shares.

[Roger Cole]

Kodak Announces Agreement to Sell Eastman Gelatine Subsidiary (http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Kodak_Announces_Agreement_to_Sell_Eastman_Gelatine_Subsidiary.htm)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they sell their gelatin operation, doesn't that mean that they are out of the film business?

Not at all. It just means they buy the gelatin they need from the company they sell the operation to. Gelatin is used in so much more, film is a tiny segment of the market.


I don't own a gelatin factory but I can buy truckloads of Jello. So could they.


Ilford probably doens't own a gelatin company.

Nope. As far as I know, no other film company owns their own gelatin company. Well, Fuji may, dunno, but it might well make good business sense to just buy what they need and stop making it themselves. (Then again, I just used the phrase "good business sense" in reference to Kodak so I must be off base somewhere.)

[Brian C. Miller]

Minyanville: Is There a Run on Kodak Film? (http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/kodak-eastman-kodak-kodak-bankruptcy-nikon/1/6/2012/id/38719?camp=syndication&medium=portals&from=Fool)
Somebody got off their duff and asked around ... the wrong places! But film hoarding isn't taking place because Kodak is going bankrupt, oh, no...!

[Richard M. Coda]

But don't you think buying gelatin from the company they just sold is going to cost more? That means the film will cost more...

[Roger Cole]

But don't you think buying gelatin from the company they just sold is going to cost more? That means the film will cost more...

Not necessarily. Depends on how much of a drain on the main business the gelatin business was, although if the gelatin business is profitable it's hard for me to see why selling it makes much sense. But if it wasn't profitable, or barely so, it might make sense to sell it and be cheaper just to buy the gelatin they need than to make lots more that they have to market and sell.

[MDR]

The Gelatine Business was one of the more profitable segments of Kodak. Perez needed money it's that simple.