How do I mount this Heliar?

[nonuniform]

I've got this Heliar 18cm in a Compur shutter. How do I mount this on a lensboard?

[Steven Tribe]

I think the step edged ring is designed for the "smart" bayonet fitment on the Voigtländer de luxe cameras like the Bergheil/Alpina (obviously a 10x15cm version).
A working shutter with this flange is probably sort after by Bergheil owners so you may be able to do a swap (either just the shutter or shutter/lens) and still have a splendid Heliar.
Of course, you could get the receiving flange made and mounted to a lens board - but a swap would give benefits to two people!

[Jim Galli]

You can take the threaded bayonet ring off and carefully drill 3 small holes for screws at it's widest points, and use it as a flange mounted to a wood or metal lens board with correct sized hole. You may want to make a black gasket out of something for a light tight seal metal against wood since a normal flange has a light trap feature that your ring won't have.

[nonuniform]

Thanks for the help! I think I'll find someone that can use this type of bayonet mount and keep looking for another 18cm heliar in a different setup. It's a nice lens, and the shutter sounds good.

[E. von Hoegh]

Could you take off the bayonet and use a standard retaining ring/flange??

[Steven Tribe]

I have checked and the 18cm Heliar was only on the 10x15cm Bergheil (1914-36) as the most expensive version for most series (3 in all).
I do not know whether the bayonet is easily removed - or even if there is a standard ring thread underneath?
Here is a drawing of the system - I think there have been threads about the Bergheil system before.

[edp]

The Bergheil bayonet flange should be held on with an ordinary retaining ring; it is on my (smaller) Bergheil.

Those bayonet flanges are like hen's teeth. Don't throw it away.

[E. von Hoegh]

Looking at the second picture, I wonder if the bayonet is held on by that dark sleeve-looking thingy?? If so, you may be able to unscrew it and use a regular ring/flange.

[renes]

I use about dozen lenses with this bayonets on my Bergheil 6x9 and in the past I had also Bergheil 9x12 and 10x15. All bayonets are mounted in the same way by the threaded mounting ring and they are very easy to remove. It looks that your is just placed on the shutter or might be sticked or glued. If you are not going to mount it on the Bergheil, put it out from the lens.

[Steven Tribe]

While you are here Renes - are the bayonets of different sizes for the various size models of Bergheil?

[renes]

While you are here Renes - are the bayonets of different sizes for the various size models of Bergheil?

Yes, the bigger size Bergheil camera the larger bayonet. Actually there were bayonets of 3 sizes: for 6x9 Bergheil, 9x12 and 10x15. They (bayonets) differ in inner diameter regarding which lens (and shutter) was fitted to the camera, i.e Heliar 105mm or 120mm (6x9), Heliar 150mm or 180mm (10x15). Model 9x12 was often equiped with Heliar 135mm, sometimes with 150mm. Most bayonets were flat, but some were bent with small groove where special and much thinner mounting ring slided into it.

[Steven Tribe]

Thanks!
And the smaller 4.5x6 Bergheil had an even smaller flange system with 00 compur/compound?

[renes]

Probably yes, but I never had 4.5x6 Bergheil.
I keep now only 6x9 model, had already adapted 12 lenses to it (including 3 petzvals and 4 meniscus and small 75/6.8 Dagor), and 4 next lenses are waiting for adaptation :) I love this camera.

[nonuniform]

Looks like I can take the bayonet flange off. I guess I'll check with SK Grimes to see if I can get a flange to mount on a 4x5 lensboard.

Thanks for all the details!


Looking at the second picture, I wonder if the bayonet is held on by that dark sleeve-looking thingy?? If so, you may be able to unscrew it and use a regular ring/flange.

[Paul Ewins]

I recently acquired a 7.5 cm Schneider Symmar and it is mounted on a homemade board which looks to be for a Bergheil. The board is between 47 and 52mm in diameter depending on where you measure it. Does that match the 6x9 boards or could it be for a 6x4.5?

[renes]

It seems it will fit 6x9 for sure. I never had 4,5x6 Bergheil, so do not know if the front camera standard mounting was the same as in 6x9 model or smaller. Probably it's smaller. If so, it's for 6x9 only.

[Ole Tjugen]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 6x4,5 Bergheil doesn't have a bayonet mount. Right now I can't check mine, maybe I'll get a chance to do so later today.

[Steven Tribe]

I think Ole is right - the 6x4.5 Bergheil appears not to have the bayonet fixture.
The Voigtländer write up says:

"size 0 (Compur) with diameter 57mm or size 1 with 66mm". No 00 size mentioned.
I discovered there was another early design of the bayonet system!

[Tim Deming]

The 6x4.5 Bergheil's do not use a bayonet mount. They were only made early on, and use a retaining ring to hold the lens, as with all other older Bergheil's. Only the later Bergheil's used the bayonet mount (in 6x9, 9x12, and 10x15 as mentioned above).

An interesting twist on this is that the lens mount for the 6x4.5 Bergheil allows the lens to be rotated 90 degrees, so one can shoot in either landscape of portrait format. This is why the reflex finder is mounted on top of the lens --it turns with it (at least on most 6x4.5 models).

cheers

Tim