Zone system with incidence meter?

[stradibarrius]

I have searched is this section of the forum about the zone system. I am reading Bruce Barnbaum's book "The Art of Photography and he deals with the zone system quite a bit and I believe that I have a good beginners understanding of the system. My question is about using an incident light reading with the zone system? All of the threads seem to talk about using a spot meter which I do not have presently.
Do you have to have a spot meter to use the ZS?

[Tony Evans]

The Zone system is based on first measuring the reflected brightness of diferent parts of the scene. Don't think you can do this with an incident meter.

[vinny]

Some may say it can be done without a spot meter but they are full of it.

[Shen45]

I have searched is this section of the forum about the zone system. I am reading Bruce Barnbaum's book "The Art of Photography and he deals with the zone system quite a bit and I believe that I have a good beginners understanding of the system. My question is about using an incident light reading with the zone system? All of the threads seem to talk about using a spot meter which I do not have presently.
Do you have to have a spot meter to use the ZS?

I think if you read some of the info on this site you may find some of the answers you are looking for.

http://btzs.org/

All the best

Steve

[Bill Burk]

You can use a reflective meter with traditional Zone System. It just means getting close to the subject. After all, that's all a spotmeter does.

[Helen Bach]

Using the Zone System with incident measuring, and the reasoning behind it, is covered in Minor White's Zone System Manual. Later on it was covered in greater depth in Beyond the Zone System.

Best,
Helen

[ic-racer]

With an incident meter you can make an adequately exposed negative without having to guess at the zones. It works pretty well but it is difficult to calibrate.

[Duane Polcou]

The Zone system is based on first measuring the reflected brightness of diferent parts of the scene. Don't think you can do this with an incident meter.

Precisely. A spot meter measures light reflected off of different objects, an incident meter measures the light falling on objects. Incident meter readings provide no information as to the range of subject brightness, sometimes called f-stop range, which would then dictate development times and agitation strategies to lower or increase negative contrast with B/W film.

Plus an incident meter only allows you to measure the light hitting the meter dome. If the light intensity at your meter's location is different than the light intensity at your subject matter's location, then your exposure will be off. A spot meter eliminates this problem.

[Tobias Key]

Many incident meters can take a spot meter attachment. That would be a relatively cheap solution if you can get one for your meter.

[Sevo]

Plus an incident meter only allows you to measure the light hitting the meter dome. If the light intensity at your meter's location is different than the light intensity at your subject matter's location, then your exposure will be off. A spot meter eliminates this problem.

No, it does not, or rather, it only would when used with a test target of known reflectivity and appropriate size and shape (where it would BE a incident meter) - otherwise it meters the (unknown) reflectivity of whatever you point it at. The Zone system tries to grapple with that lack of absolute values by using a contrast matched rather than absolute exposure.

In general, incident metering and Zone system have quite different intentions - incident does match exposure to (usually factory) film specs while Zone matches development and printing to the contrast range of the scenery.

[Helen Bach]

Incident metering is not restricted to simply matching normal film speed. Even in its most basic form it is not restricted to matching exposure to ISO (or 'factory') speed. It can be used to get a very good estimate of the scene or subject brightness range (what is also being called the 'contrast range' here). Minor White understood this - otherwise why would he have included it in the Zone System Manual. Like spot metering it needs to be used intelligently. Anyone with both types of meter, or a dual-purpose meter like the Sekonic L-508, L-758 etc, can do a comparison to see how incident metering can be used with the Zone System.

Best,
Helen

[ki6mf]

On the related subject of your process check out the step by step process for getting film speed test and development test at Jerry Orabona's site. Look for the film speed test and development test. There are methodology for doing your testing if you do not have equipment to test film density. Suggest you pick a film/ developer combination and do not make any changes during the testing process

http://www.jerryo.com/teaching.htm

[Peter Gomena]

The late Phil Davis' Beyond the Zone System approach uses an incident meter to manage exposure in a calibrated system. If you are an experienced darkroom worker, you can calibrate your system in relatively short order. You also can make use of services provided by Fred Newman at The View Camera Store to simplify the process. The incident system works very well as long as you can read both the highlights and average shadows of the scene. Sometimes you have to fake it.

Peter Gomena

[Brian Ellis]

You can use a reflective meter with traditional Zone System. It just means getting close to the subject. After all, that's all a spotmeter does.

A spot meter is a reflective meter.

I suspect the OP is already adequately confused by the various responses here, let's not confuse him or her any further.

To the OP: I don't use an incident meter so I don't know the answer to your question. But if Helen Bach says you can then you can.

[stradibarrius]

No I am not confused really. As I stated I am currently working through Bruce Barnbaum's book "the Art of Photography". From what I think I have learned...could you not take an incident reading knowing that will be an 18% gray, zone V value and then decide where in the shot you would like for zone V to be and make exposure adjustments from there? Is that what you are saying Helen?
If you want the face of the subject, for example to be zone 6.5 or 7 then you would give 1.5-2 more stops of exposure?

[Sevo]

It can be used to get a very good estimate of the scene or subject brightness range (what is also being called the 'contrast range' here).

Well, no. If you really do abuse an incident meter for subject brightness metering, it would amount to a very weird way of doing a reflective reading through a diffuser dome - i.e. reflective again, the clumsy and flawed way...

What incident can do is meter illumination contrast - that is the way incident meters are used in cinematography.

What Minor White effectively did is to create (or record - it probably was already around, given that many early Zone adopters had to make do with incident meters) a hybrid of illumination metering and the Zone system, where development and printing are matched to the illumination contrast (rather than the subject contrast as in AA's Zone system proper).

[Bill Burk]

If you want the face of the subject, for example to be zone 6.5 or 7 then you would give 1.5-2 more stops of exposure?

The incident meter already "ignores" that the face of subject is lighter than average 18% gray. (It already placed everything where it should be for a normal treatment. The shadows are on Zone II or III, the highlights are on Zone VII or VIII, the subject face is on VI etc.). If you then give 1.5-2 stops more exposure you will effectively move the subject's face from where the incident meter put it (Zone VI) to Zone VII or VIII - you make it lighter than it would be if it was properly exposed.

Who knows, that might be what you want for a stylized rendition.

[Helen Bach]

Well, no. If you really do abuse an incident meter for subject brightness metering, it would amount to a very weird way of doing a reflective reading through a diffuser dome - i.e. reflective again, the clumsy and flawed way...

What incident can do is meter illumination contrast - that is the way incident meters are used in cinematography.

What Minor White effectively did is to create (or record - it probably was already around, given that many early Zone adopters had to make do with incident meters) a hybrid of illumination metering and the Zone system, where development and printing are matched to the illumination contrast (rather than the subject contrast as in AA's Zone system proper).

That's why I said 'estimate' the scene brightness range rather than 'measure'. I agree with what you say - it is using measurements of illumination difference* to estimate the scene brightness range, based on the reasonable assumption (intelligently applied) that real materials have a limited range of reflectivity. This is what both Minor White in the Zone System Manual and Phil Davis in Beyond the Zone System referred to. It works very well in practice.

* ie you take a reading in full illumination and one in shadow illumination. You need to judge how deep a shadow you wish to measure in - usually the deepest shadow lighting you want detail in. You need to be able to get in to the full illumination of the subject, and to imitate or have access to the shadow illumination. This gives you the difference in illumination. You can then make an assumption, which you can revise based on experience, that the scene brightness range goes from about 3 stops over the full illumination reading (ie one stop from 12% to 24%; another from 24% to 48%, and the third from 48% to 96% reflectivity) to about 2 or 2-1/2 stops under the shadow illumination reading (ie one stop from 12% to 6%, and another down to 3% reflectivity). Therefore the SBR is likely to be about 5 stops more than the difference in illumination, and the metered shadow exposure is the one to use if you are exposing for the shadows, having calibrated. (Apologies for the very brief explanation)

Best,
Helen

[ic-racer]

Zone matches development and printing to the contrast range of the scenery.

You still have to first expose the film to give a useful shadow detail.

[Renato Tonelli]

A parable.

Many moons ago (1980's) I read everything I could get my hands on on the subject of the Zone system of exposure. I was somewhat discouraged until a coworker (at a photo lab churning out custom prints of weddings) suggested I read Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop book.
The Zone System was demystified!

[Chuck P.]

Get a spot meter and begin to use the zone system as it was originally designed, that is if you want to practice the ZS in its most essential form. It will, you will discover, be finer than anything you have ever tried to do before and insanely simpler than anything anyone else has ever tried to verbalize to you. Never has there been anything so simple in actual practice but so convoluted and often at times, so grotesquely misrepresented in discussion. It is a fact though, and I find it very strange, the ZS can be a convoluted discussion topic while being otherwise so simple, and it often becomes the victim of otherwise good intentions.

[Tony Evans]

Get a spot meter and begin to use the zone system as it was originally designed, that is if you want to practice the ZS in its most essential form. It will, you will discover, be finer than anything you have ever tried to do before and insanely simpler than anything anyone else has ever tried to verbalize to you. Never has there been anything so simple in actual practice but so convoluted and often at times, so grotesquely misrepresented in discussion. It is a fact though, and I find it very strange, the ZS can be a convoluted discussion topic while being otherwise so simple, and it often becomes the victim of otherwise good intentions.

+1

[Preston]

Second vote in favor of Chuck's statement.

I've used the Zone System for many years for both B&W and color. In my experience, skilled use of a spot meter and the ZS will help one acheive repeatable results.

--P