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1750Shooter
9-Dec-2011, 09:03
I'm looking for a field camera that is 4x5, has all the common movements, interchanable lenses, is reasonably light, folds compactly, & most importantly is under $1,500. I've tried the Graphics & they don't have the movements & are too heavy. It will be used exclusively for landscapes. Thanks for any help.

Kevin Crisp
9-Dec-2011, 09:08
Tachihara, Shen Hao, Ikeda Anba, Zone VI, Wista, Wisner, for starters. It depends what you mean by "too heavy."

Peter De Smidt
9-Dec-2011, 09:10
What lenses are you planing on using? Whatever you choose might impact your camera choice, especially if you want to use really wide or really long lenses.

I have a Toyo AX, and I love it. It has plenty of movements for landscapes, it folds up compactly, it's very solid, more solid than any wooden field camera that I've used, and there are a lot of accessories available if needed.

In the wood fields, you have a lot of choices. Chamoniox (sp?), Wisner, Zone VI, Ebony (used)...

Walker makes some interesting ABS cameras.

BradS
9-Dec-2011, 09:31
for $1500 the sky is the limit. You can buy a brand new Shen-Hoa or Chamonix with all the movements you could possibly desire for around $800. Used, they still fetch around $500~600.

1750Shooter
9-Dec-2011, 09:43
Thanks, guys! I should have qualified my question. I'll be using 135, 210, & 300mm lenses primarily. Weight - as light as possible bearing in mind durability. I'll be packing this thing a bit, so...

Edward (Halifax,NS)
9-Dec-2011, 09:59
for $1500 the sky is the limit. You can buy a brand new Shen-Hao or Chamonix with all the movements you could possibly desire for around $800. Used, they still fetch around $500~600.

When I have the cash I am going with one of these two. There are youtube videos showing setup and movements for both of them.

Chamonix 045N-2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEJ0GMWJk-Y

Shen Hao TZ45-IIB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6M4BWxwAp0

SamReeves
9-Dec-2011, 10:01
The Tachi is the lightest of the bunch, and the least expensive. I say get it.

Frank Petronio
9-Dec-2011, 10:06
Using the 300 successfully may require more than the lightest possible camera....

Ken Lee
9-Dec-2011, 10:09
When saving weight, be sure to consider all the contributors. A few extra film holders can weigh as much as we save by using a lightweight tripod. A dark cloth can weigh as much as several lenses... etc.

Gem Singer
9-Dec-2011, 10:30
There have been several good deals on previously owned K.B. Canham DLC 4x5's.

The camera has been replaced with the newer DLC-2.

It's all metal, light weight, and folds into a compact size soft carrying case.

You should be able to find one in your price range.

See: www.canhamcameras.com

Bob McCarthy
9-Dec-2011, 10:37
If lightweight is your goal, I can share what I've done for a walk about camera.

I normally use metal, ie. Sinar F & P, and a Calumet C-1. But for hiking I use a N-2 Chamonix with an older 135 Fuji W (seiko varient-tiny tiny) and a Fuji 240 A. In a rucksack, I can load camera, lenses, holders, dark cloth (black magic), filters and be good to go at around 15-16 lbs. i can add a 90 to the mix and add a pound or so. A light carbon tripod finishes the kit. After what I carried before it feel like a feather.

The Fuji 240, might break the bank for you, but it is light, sharp and will cover 8x10. Start with one lens and add as funds become available. Using a one lens kit will make you a better photographer anyway as you start in LF.

bob

Lightbender
9-Dec-2011, 19:53
A 300mm lens will be hard to use on the light wooden cameras.
Part of the problem is the weight of the lens. A nikkor-m, fujinon-c, g-claron, artar or ronar will be ok. Big plasmats like symmar, sironar, etc are quite heavy.

Another problem is the bellows extention. Some will barely allow infinity focus, and not really closer.
This includes the tachihara, wista, ikeda anba, etc. (a 240mm lens is much more reasonable)
The shen-hao has 340mm-390mm depending on the model. I think the chamonix is about the same.
The Zone VI (early model), Deardorff, and Wisner are triple-extention cameras with much longer bellows. I think the Canhams have long draw as well.

The Linhofs are good with long lenses as well.

Also, don't discount the rail cameras. Some are fairly lightweight and most much sturdier than wooden cameras. You may think they would be harder to setup. But if you have ever used one of the wooden field cameras (You have to unfold them like a puzzle-box.), you will know the difference is negligible.

J. Fada
9-Dec-2011, 20:25
I think the Chamonix is the best cheap camera, otherwise I would spend my money on a Canham. They are incredible cameras, not cheap though, and Keith is a heck of a nice guy.

One dealbreaker for me with the less expensive cameras is a short bellows draw as Lightbender mentioned. If you want to use a longer lens or do any macro work take a close look at this before you buy.

Alan Gales
9-Dec-2011, 20:59
Decide first on the lenses which you wish to use and then decide on the camera. This will quickly narrow things down for you.

The lenses you plan on using will dictate the amount of bellows draw you need for long lenses and the possible necessity of a bag bellows for short lenses.

chassis
9-Dec-2011, 21:00
I suggest the Toyo 45AII. It's weighs about 6 lbs., which for me is manageable. I did a couple 2-ish mile hikes in Washington and Oregon last weekend, with the camera and an aluminum tripod, and it was fine. The 45AII has all typical movements, folds nicely, is well made and makes great images.

Gary Tarbert
9-Dec-2011, 21:03
Hi , I have used Shen hao ,Tachihara and Chamonix gets my vote goes to the Chamonix, Great backpack camera and well made , Put a Fujinon 240A on your shopping list as well.
Great lightweight lens that will cover 8x10 if needed . Regards Gary

Two23
9-Dec-2011, 21:17
I've owned Shen Hao, and now have Chamonix 45N-1. Both are great for the money. I've used a Rodenstock Geronar 300mm on both with no problem. Chamonix can take an add-on extension for longer lenses.


Kent in SD

Alan Gales
9-Dec-2011, 22:48
I just want to give you something else to think about. You said that you want a 4x5 for less than $1,500.00. I purchased my used Wehman 8x10 field camera with extras for $1,500.00 plus shipping.

gliderbee
11-Dec-2011, 09:32
When I have the cash I am going with one of these two. There are youtube videos showing setup and movements for both of them.

Chamonix 045N-2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEJ0GMWJk-Y

Shen Hao TZ45-IIB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6M4BWxwAp0

I had the Shen-Hao, and now same in 5x7. Great cameras.

Stefan

Matus Kalisky
11-Dec-2011, 10:01
I have Tachihara 4x5. It is probably one of the lightest cameras. It will manage to focus 300mm lens to infinity and a little bit closer, but truth to be told - at the full extension the stability of the camera lacks a bit. 240 mm lens would be a better match (I use Fuji 240/9 A - no problem there). Lenses wider than 90mm can be used, but will allow for very little movement (though mostly enough for landscape - you will not get much rise because of the bellows being compressed so much).

I know you did not mention that you plan to use wide lenses, but should that need arise later, it would be beneficial for you if the camera can accept wide angle (bag) bellows. Just a thought.

Brian Ellis
11-Dec-2011, 10:55
You have a pretty wide array of cameras from which to choose. So to narrow things down a bit the first thing I'd do is eliminate all cameras that require a top-hat or other accessory to focus closer than infinity with your 300mm lens. That eliminates anything with a 12 inch or shorter bellows such as Wista.

For me it would also eliminate the Shen Hao that in its normal configuration has a 12 inch extension. However, another couple inches can be added by fiddling around with base and axis tilt, which moves the lens out in front of the camera bed, which has always seemed to me like a bad idea from a stability standpoint though some Shen Hao owners may disagree. Or maybe there are other versions that have a longer normal extension, I'm not familiar with all the different Shen Hao models, just the basic one that I owned briefly (briefly because it wasn't accurately described by the seller, not because I disliked the camera).

Tachihara is cutting it close with its 13 inch bellows. The extra inch will allow you to focus closer than infinity but not as close as you could with cameras that have a longer bellows. I used a 300mm lens with a Tachihara and the loss of some close focusing distance didn't bother me, maybe it wouldn't bother you either.

A Chamonix might fit your needs the best. It sells for well under $1,500, weighs around 4.5 pounds, is very well made, has plenty of movements, and has a 15 inch bellows which is fine for your 300mm lens.

Frank Petronio
11-Dec-2011, 11:08
http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lightwei.htm

Kerry's old article on lightweight lenses is still relevant - basically you want to use light lenses with light camera.

I'm big on starting with inexpensive, rugged, simple cameras like $300 Crown Graphics to grasp the basics of film handling and workflow, then adding an inexpensive, expandable monorail with full movements - like a $300 Sinar F, Cambo, Linhof Kardan, Toyo, etc. to learn how to use movements and use more extreme lenses. For $600 - less than the price of most entry level wooden cameras - you can have greater versatility and capability from some truly fine but not-so-popular cameras. Once you understand and use both types of cameras you'll have gained an educated, experienced perspective from which to decide what you most want to work with, be it an ultralight but limited speciality camera or a robust but bulky studio system.

It makes a lot more sense than the newbie who comes onto this board saying he wants to get a $5000 Ebony or Arca because he heard they were the best and wants to start out with one. All he is doing is limiting his experience and education with some expensive gear he won't grasp the subtleties of.

I think the Shen and Chamonix are unduly complicated and fussy but I'll concede that if they are what you want, they're a decent value. But I suspect that a lot of people who start out with them, without experiencing the wider range of simple, solid cameras available for a fraction of the cost are doing themselves a disservice and a lot of them give up and quit.

In fact, if you buy used, you'll probably buy their camera!

All I have to do is watch a workshop and see some guy dicking around for 20-minutes to make a simple landscape shot to confirm my "ill-formed" opinion ;-)

falth j
11-Dec-2011, 16:45
Ditto,

What Franks says in post #22.

Don't foreget the toyo d45m...

It's fairly light, decently stable, and with a little forethought easy to collapse into a bag for backpacking.

At least you'll get the chance for the full monty in 4x5 without spending a lot of money.

1750Shooter
11-Dec-2011, 18:53
Thanks everyone for your input. I probably should have mentioned I have a Crown Graphic & a Super Speed Graphic, both of which I love, but feel I am limited by the lack of most movements. I wanted to step up from them. I've been looking at used Linhofs - any thoughts? Thanks again.

Frank Petronio
11-Dec-2011, 19:27
http://www.cameraquest.com/techs.htm Whilst not 100% accurate this is a good introduction to older Linhof Technikas.

They are wonderful cameras, imperfect but they all are... certainly heavier than most wooden folders but stronger too. If you like them, as do I, they will last a lifetime.

The best buying strategy is to patiently wait for a good deal to come along - looking for a recent CLA and new bellows on a Technika IV, or budget for getting the work done. I think the IV is the best value, I would pay $600 to $800 for a user, plus $350 for a new OEM bellows and maybe $150 for the CLA. You can get a $120 Chinese bellows and do it yourself if you are handy, but frankly I'd ~much~ rather have the OEM bellows. I wouldn't worry about "camming" lenses unless you buy one with lenses already cammed, as it costs $300-plus to get new ones cammed.

Leigh
11-Dec-2011, 20:44
I use a Picker-made Zone VI 4x5 in the field, and find it quite adequate for the task.

It has an 18" bellows that will focus my Nikor-W 360/6.5 down to 3.8 feet (1:3 ratio).
It has interchangeable bellows, so it can do pretty short lenses.

I use it on a Majestic tripod with a huge top plate that provides extra support.

- Leigh

Brian Ellis
11-Dec-2011, 21:52
Thanks everyone for your input. I probably should have mentioned I have a Crown Graphic & a Super Speed Graphic, both of which I love, but feel I am limited by the lack of most movements. I wanted to step up from them. I've been looking at used Linhofs - any thoughts? Thanks again.

You did mention it in your original post. Some people either didn't read it or forgot it. Your mention of using the camera for landscape photography, a type of work that doesn't require the extensive movements of a monorail, was also forgotten (or ignored).

Doremus Scudder
12-Dec-2011, 08:03
My take:

If a Crown Graphic is too heavy, you need to go with a lightweight wooden folder. Even wooden folding cameras with lots of bellows draw and fancy features can get heavy (I don NOT like to carry my Zone VI camera in the field much for just this reason).

Also, despite what Brian says, I find using a top-hat lensboard (homemade) for my 300mm Nikkor M just fine on my 12" bellows-draw Wista. I can focus very close and, with a little practice, even front swings and tilts are not too bad.

So, my advice would be to go with a simple basic-featured wooden field camera. There are many out there and I do not have experience with all of them. I'll let you know what I like and don't like about the ones I do have.

First, in the U.S. I shoot mostly with my Wista DXs (I've got a couple). The advantages here, are:
1. Smaller lenses fold up inside the camera. I can fold up the camera with my 100mm WF Ektar, 135mm Nikkor W, 203 Ektar, 150mm Nikkor W, 180mm Fujinon A and even the 240mm Fujinon A mounted.
2. It easily accepts recessed lensboards; neither my Zone VI or my Woodman will :-( I use both a 90mm f/8 Super Angulon and a 75mm Fujinon SW on recessed boards with this camera and can get enough movements to vignette.
3. It has all basic movements including shift. I can't live without either front or rear shift (it really doesn't matter which).
Disadvantages are:
1. the short bellows draw (really a trade-off for lightness) which means the longest lens I can use is the 300 with a top-hat lensboard. I keep my Zone VI around for those times when I really want to use the 450mm.
2. The Wista DX and most other field cameras in this class do not like large lenses. That rules out 90mm f/5.6 lenses and plasmats much longer than 180mm. That means lightweight lenses (like those in my list above) that normally have smaller maximum apertures around f/8 or f/9. This makes viewing a bit more difficult in low-light situations.
3. Movements are limited when compared to flagship folders (even the Chamonix) and this can be a bit of a bother when doing architecturals and close-ups. I end up doing a fair amount of "point and tilt/swing" for shots that need lots of movement. And, the bellows tends to get hung up when using extensive movements and short lenses. Mine are permanently kinked from doing this.

My camera in Europe is a Woodman. It is a really bare-bones camera, but is extremely lightweight; it weighs even less than the Wista. It will not accept recessed boards, but I'm able to use the 90mm on it fairly well with a flat board. I do a lot of archtecturals in the city with this camera, and twist it up quite a bit. The bellows is still in really good shape. Again, movements are relatively small, so there is a fair amount of "point and tilt/swing" that I have to do. It does have front shift (really, don't get a camera without shift, it's one of the most useful movements). The Woodman allows me to mount Technika boards upside-down, which means that I can use boards with off-center holes (standard Technika boards) mounted with the offset toward the top to get a bit more rise. This is really helpful from time to time.
The camera will not fold with a lens mounted, so doesn't have the space- and time-saving convenience of the Wista in this regard.

I also own a later (Ritter/Picker) Zone VI field camera. It is larger, heavier and not my favorite to carry long distances. It will not accept recessed boards, and the long bellows bunch up a lot making the use of shorter lenses a PITA. There is a bag bellows option to fix this, but that is just that much more to carry. The upside, is that I can shoot lenses up to 450mm on the thing, and it's greater weight makes it really steady at even maximum bellows extension. It is not my default camera, though.

From the above, you can see that I like the Wista DX a lot. Again, if you should decide on a Wista, make sure you have the DX and not the DX II, which does not have the shift feature.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Brian Ellis
12-Dec-2011, 12:38
I actually didn't say there was anything "wrong" with using a top-hat. But when there are many cameras in the OP's price range that will suit the fairly minimal needs that he's stated (common movements, 4x5, light) without needing a top-hat in order to use his 300mm lens, why start out buying a camera that's going to require such an accessory? If a Wista was the only camera that suited his or her needs I'd say fine, by all means get it and use the top-hat when necessary. But that isn't the situation.

EdSawyer
12-Dec-2011, 13:33
I have a Canham DLC and like it alot. I use it basically only for landscapes, so far at least. Works great, very rugged, relatively light, tons of movements and handles lenses as short as 65mm with a recessed board, no problem. Can handle up to 450mm+ on the long-end.

-Ed

neil poulsen
12-Dec-2011, 22:54
Badger Graphic appears to be carrying a new model from Shen Hoa that looks interesting. I've never seen nor used one. But, it looks intriguing.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2766

Check the stats. Bellows goes from 45mm to 390mm. So, it can handle a 360mm lens, at least as far as the bellows is concerned.

Roger Cole
12-Dec-2011, 23:57
Badger Graphic appears to be carrying a new model from Shen Hoa that looks interesting. I've never seen nor used one. But, it looks intriguing.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2766

Check the stats. Bellows goes from 45mm to 390mm. So, it can handle a 360mm lens, at least as far as the bellows is concerned.

Not that new; it's been around a while. I think that one is basically a clone of the Chamonix.

I've been following these threads because I'd like to, pretty soon, replace my old Tech III with something a bit lighter but, mostly, a lot less banged up and with fewer broken bits to work around. I find the number of models of Shen Hao pretty bewildering.

Kuzano
13-Dec-2011, 01:17
Thanks everyone for your input. I probably should have mentioned I have a Crown Graphic & a Super Speed Graphic, both of which I love, but feel I am limited by the lack of most movements. I wanted to step up from them. I've been looking at used Linhofs - any thoughts? Thanks again.

Do you know about the "virtually hidden" shift and swing movements on the front standard of the Super Graphic. These give the Super front movements of rise, fall (using the drop bed), tilt (forward and back with a minor mod), side shift both ways from center and swing of the front standards. This leaves of course the lack of rear tilt, but there is a mod which allows rear tilt, because the bellow goes through the body and mounts to the back. Hinging the back at the bottom can achieve rear tilt.

I've got another Super Graphic in a machine shop.... lightening the body and maximizing movements.

I was moving toward the Toyo 45A, AII, and AX which I really like, but they are rather pricey.

So, I'm still intent on squeezing all I can out of the many parts, and parts Super Graphics that are available for low prices. The Super Graphic I am currently finishing will have nearly all the front movements of a Toyo Field, be lighter and be strictly GG viewing. ALL of the rangefinder parts and electronics are stripped out. I'll be in it about $200 from acquisition to completion.

Frank Petronio
13-Dec-2011, 05:26
One thing that often gets overlooked but is very convenient and also goes towards making a smaller overall package is the ability to fold a folder up with a lens attached. I believe that Shen-Haos, Chamonixs, Toyos, and most others do not allow this, while the Linhofs, Wistas, and Graphics allow a moderate 135-150mm lens in a Copal 0 size to be attached. If the idea is to go out knocking around, the folder that protects the lens is pretty nice.

The next post will gripe that the right lens is never mounted ;-)

Helcio J Tagliolatto
13-Dec-2011, 05:48
As it was said here, landscapes don't require all that movements.

So, since 4x5" is not my number one format, I've decided to use the lightest of the 4x5" field cameras, the Toyo CF. It handles the Nikkor M300 with more rigidity than many wood 4x5s, weights only a bit more than the Toho, folds with the Fujinon 135 mounted and don't break your bank.
Yes, it's not built to last, but its rigidity is sufficient for field work

Peter De Smidt
13-Dec-2011, 08:03
I prefer using a Toyo AX or ARII to using a Linhof field camera. I like the controls better. The Linhofs do have more extension, and the newer ones work better with super wides, but I have no problem using 90-300mm lenses on my Toyo, which is good enough for me.

Edward (Halifax,NS)
13-Dec-2011, 11:28
Badger Graphic appears to be carrying a new model from Shen Hoa that looks interesting. I've never seen nor used one. But, it looks intriguing.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2766

Check the stats. Bellows goes from 45mm to 390mm. So, it can handle a 360mm lens, at least as far as the bellows is concerned.

Here is another interesting one from Shen Hao.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3420

Bob McCarthy
13-Dec-2011, 13:06
Badger Graphic appears to be carrying a new model from Shen Hoa that looks interesting. I've never seen nor used one. But, it looks intriguing.

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2766

Check the stats. Bellows goes from 45mm to 390mm. So, it can handle a 360mm lens, at least as far as the bellows is concerned.

A 360 with only 390mm of bellows extension is a no go unless

A0 you only shoot subjects at or near infinity,

B) you don't mind pulling the bellows to where it is tight and pull tension on your standards.

I dont go less than 1.5x of FL to bellows for longest lens, many use 1.3X as the limit.

So 390/1.3= 300 mm max recommended

bob

unixrevolution
13-Dec-2011, 14:26
Do you know about the "virtually hidden" shift and swing movements on the front standard of the Super Graphic. These give the Super front movements of rise, fall (using the drop bed), tilt (forward and back with a minor mod), side shift both ways from center and swing of the front standards. This leaves of course the lack of rear tilt, but there is a mod which allows rear tilt, because the bellow goes through the body and mounts to the back. Hinging the back at the bottom can achieve rear tilt.

I've got another Super Graphic in a machine shop.... lightening the body and maximizing movements.

I was moving toward the Toyo 45A, AII, and AX which I really like, but they are rather pricey.

So, I'm still intent on squeezing all I can out of the many parts, and parts Super Graphics that are available for low prices. The Super Graphic I am currently finishing will have nearly all the front movements of a Toyo Field, be lighter and be strictly GG viewing. ALL of the rangefinder parts and electronics are stripped out. I'll be in it about $200 from acquisition to completion.

I get so sad when I see graphics stripped of their RFs. I have a Super Graphic myself, and I was just wondering as well, why if the OP is shooting landscapes he finds the SG's movements lacking. 15 deg. tilt, both directions, 25 deg. swing, both directions, about an inch and an eighth of rise, 15 deg. bed drop, and 3/4" shift on the front standard.

I use my SG as a handheld with Instant and as a view camera. I think it's a wonderful, inexpensive field camera, and it's stone-axe tough too.

Peter De Smidt
13-Dec-2011, 15:29
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=84124

Frank Petronio
13-Dec-2011, 16:11
Second Peter's recommendation and Michael, who is listing the Toyo, is a good seller. Those are rugged, good values with plenty of movements for landscape.

Kuzano
13-Dec-2011, 19:34
I get so sad when I see graphics stripped of their RFs. I have a Super Graphic myself, and I was just wondering as well, why if the OP is shooting landscapes he finds the SG's movements lacking. 15 deg. tilt, both directions, 25 deg. swing, both directions, about an inch and an eighth of rise, 15 deg. bed drop, and 3/4" shift on the front standard.

I use my SG as a handheld with Instant and as a view camera. I think it's a wonderful, inexpensive field camera, and it's stone-axe tough too.

Well, if it's any consolation, I would never gut or strip a redeemable Super Graphic provided:

1) The rangefinder is usable, or fixable with a little work.
2) The bellows still has working foil ribbon connectors showing continuity through the bellow. In case some don't know, the connection from the camera body to the front standard solenoid is built inside the inner and outer covering of the bellows. In my search to find someone to build such a bellows, I have come up "nada".
3) All my parts are scavenged from parts only cameras OFTEN found on eBay. For instance there is one right now on eBay which is only a body, front standard and door, if I recall.

I occasionally talk with Fred in Reno, and he no longer has new bellows for the Super Graphic. I did pay him quite a bit to round up a good condition used bellows and install it on my full working Super Graphic.

Yes, I agree, unigue camera's should be restored. But, and I also believe this, Parts Is Parts and making them work in functional camera's is as rewarding as saving a stock camera. There are tons of parts out there. I have two boxes of them.

Hard to find are proper bellows, electrics for the Super Graphic, rangefinder cams for various lenses (however there are a couple of sites that have schematics for cutting new cams). Easy to find are camera's that have been stripped or torn down, with many missing parts as noted in this paragraph.

unixrevolution
14-Dec-2011, 12:04
Well, if it's any consolation, I would never gut or strip a redeemable Super Graphic provided:

1) The rangefinder is usable, or fixable with a little work.
2) The bellows still has working foil ribbon connectors showing continuity through the bellow. In case some don't know, the connection from the camera body to the front standard solenoid is built inside the inner and outer covering of the bellows. In my search to find someone to build such a bellows, I have come up "nada".
3) All my parts are scavenged from parts only cameras OFTEN found on eBay. For instance there is one right now on eBay which is only a body, front standard and door, if I recall.

I occasionally talk with Fred in Reno, and he no longer has new bellows for the Super Graphic. I did pay him quite a bit to round up a good condition used bellows and install it on my full working Super Graphic.

Yes, I agree, unigue camera's should be restored. But, and I also believe this, Parts Is Parts and making them work in functional camera's is as rewarding as saving a stock camera. There are tons of parts out there. I have two boxes of them.

Hard to find are proper bellows, electrics for the Super Graphic, rangefinder cams for various lenses (however there are a couple of sites that have schematics for cutting new cams). Easy to find are camera's that have been stripped or torn down, with many missing parts as noted in this paragraph.

Well, okay, yes...a non-working camera is a different story. It's like how you may cringe at a hot-rodded rare automobile, only to learn there wasn't enough left to restore. So yeah, in that case I have no problem with it. In my head I saw an entire working RF mechanism sitting in a trashbin.

My SG is working, but I need to get the RF back in line.

Kuzano
14-Dec-2011, 13:32
Well, okay, yes...a non-working camera is a different story. It's like how you may cringe at a hot-rodded rare automobile, only to learn there wasn't enough left to restore. So yeah, in that case I have no problem with it. In my head I saw an entire working RF mechanism sitting in a trashbin.

My SG is working, but I need to get the RF back in line.

I've had some interesting discussions with Fred Lustig in Reno. When he fitted a good used SG bellows onto my "good" SG, I spoke to him about the Super Graphic. He had some interesting observations about:

The change in the camera when Graflex sold the rights and tools to Toyo for them to continue the Super Graphic. They did this for a while before the metal Toyo fields came into play (no rangefinders there)

The possibility of raising the Super Graphic up as a new project, and selling refurbished or renewed SG cameras whole.

He probably could get your RF in great shape in a hurry, but he's had some issues. When I last spoke with him he was very busy with his work in Reno. He's pretty easy to contact, although often his wife answers as he is at his shop.

BTW. I also notice that there are some rangefinder cams popping up on eBay from time to time, and there is a true Super Graphic lens board with the internal shutter actuator on eBay presently.

Kuzano
14-Dec-2011, 13:34
Well, okay, yes...a non-working camera is a different story. It's like how you may cringe at a hot-rodded rare automobile, only to learn there wasn't enough left to restore. So yeah, in that case I have no problem with it. In my head I saw an entire working RF mechanism sitting in a trashbin.

My SG is working, but I need to get the RF back in line.

I've had some interesting discussions with Fred Lustig in Reno. When he fitted a good used SG bellows onto my "good" SG, I spoke to him about the Super Graphic. He had some interesting observations about:

1) The change in the camera when Graflex sold the rights and tools to Toyo for them to continue the Super Graphic. They did this for a while before the metal Toyo fields came into play (no rangefinders there)

2) The possibility of raising the Super Graphic up as a new project, and selling refurbished or renewed SG cameras whole.

He probably could get your RF in great shape in a hurry, but he's had some issues. When I last spoke with him he was very busy with his work in Reno. He's pretty easy to contact, although often his wife answers as he is at his shop.

Frank Petronio
14-Dec-2011, 14:23
You could of course, use the inexpensive Super Graphic (or similar) as the rugged field camera and have budget left over for a proper metal monorail. I mention this not to piss Brian off ;-p but because it would give you a full movement camera for local or close to the car work, yet also give you a good packable beater. For less in total than a lot of popular cameras.

Brian Ellis
14-Dec-2011, 15:58
You could of course, use the inexpensive Super Graphic (or similar) as the rugged field camera and have budget left over for a proper metal monorail. I mention this not to piss Brian off ;-p but because it would give you a full movement camera for local or close to the car work, yet also give you a good packable beater. For less in total than a lot of popular cameras.

I'm really pissed

: - )

Frank Petronio
14-Dec-2011, 17:13
You live in Bend, not Bent!

Kuzano
14-Dec-2011, 18:08
You live in Bend, not Bent!

Well Frank, it's not entirely impossible to get Bent in Bend. However, you may recall that I lived in Eugene for a long time, and have now been back in Bend for 20 years.

That said, it's virtually impossible to get Bent in Bend after you've lived in Eugene. But 20 years later, the mellowness of Eugene is wearing off.

The most popular ideological quote describing Bend (long before the meltdown)

"Welcome to Bend.... Poverty with a View!!"

It was that way in the 60's when I finished highschool here and before I got out. It was that way when I came back in 1992, and clearly it's that way now. It's just gratifying to see the rest of the country sinking to our level, economically speaking. :eek:

But we do have spectacular views. As was said and remembered on Seinfeld. "They're REAL and They're SPECTACULAR." re Teri Hatcher.

Alan Gales
14-Dec-2011, 18:40
Second Peter's recommendation and Michael, who is listing the Toyo, is a good seller. Those are rugged, good values with plenty of movements for landscape.

I'll make a third recommendation for the Toyo. A very good friend of mine owns one. Rugged, good value and plenty of movements for landscape just like Frank says.