XTOL + Pre-Soak: What gives?

[Renato Tonelli]

I have been following the advice on a Jobo bullettin where it says not to use a water Pre-Soak (2500 seris tanks and Expert drums).

This evening, I was reading Kodak's XTOL publication to check the published times for some old film I found and lo and behold! it says to pre-soak sheets before development.

What gives? I realize that I'm up late and that I am tired, but....

Do you pre-soak your sheet film when you are using XTOL? :confused:

[Richard Wheat]

I use a jobo drum on a roller, and I always pre-soak. :)

[Arne Croell]

I am not using XTOL, but TMAX RS in my Jobo Expert drums, and I always presoak.

[Paul Bujak]

I use XTOL and always pre-soak at least one minute.

[Ed Richards]

I use Tmax and Xtol in expert drums. I did not presoak for a year or so, and had problems with uneven skies. Started doing a 5 minute presoak and have had no more problems.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I always presoak with XTOL in the Jobo tanks. I see no issues with doing that. Just be consistant, and make sure the presoak water is at the same temp as the developer.

[Renato Tonelli]

Really, I was wondering how this conflicting information came about in the first place and why.

When I was using HC110 I always used a pre-soak and still do wit 35mm and 120 with Microdol-X. I always liked the idea of a pre-soak - it seems to make sense.

[Jim Noel]

I always pre-soak for 5 minutes. The instructions I have for the Expert drums states that a 5 minute soak should be used.

[Gene McCluney]

Pre-soak does no harm.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I never presoak.

[pergorm]

I use X-TOL and ADOX CHS-film. I always presoak and i dont know if it is a problem not to... However the anti-halation layer on the ADOX film is purple, and it is just not right to pour purple developer from the tank - that is why i presoak:)

Per

[tgtaylor]

Re-read the Xtol data sheet: Kodak recommends a 1 minute pre-soak for tray development only and not for rotary or small tank development. Pre-soaking won't harm the film but it will change the developing time somewhat.

[jeroldharter]

I pre soak for 5 minutes in Jobo drums. The preoak with tempered water also helps stabilize temperature during development. I use a motor base, not a Jobo processor.

Phil Davis did testing of pre soaking in the BTZS newsletter. As I recall he found no problems with doing it.

[Peter De Smidt]

When Jobo came out with their rotary processors, they tried to come up with a way for people to use times/temps published for inversion processing when they used their Jobo. There are so many developer/film combos, that they didn't want to have to do a bunch a testing, and then re-test whenever a film manufacturer changed emulsions. What they found is that using a 5 minute pre-soak with a Jobo, and the film manufacturer's times for inversion processing, gave negatives with generally correct contrast. As a result, they recommended using a 5 minute pre-soak and starting with published times for inversion. They didn't find any other reason to use a pre-soak. They only recommended it as a convenience for getting to a good time more quickly.

When Kodak published their Xtol info, they included times for rotary development of film without a pre-soak. As a result, Jobo said to use the Xtol times without a pre-soak, as there was no need.

All of this was published in bulletins put out by Jobo, and confirmed by Jobo USA's Ricky Stouffer and Ken Owen. (I hope the names are right.)

I never use a pre-soak with BW film in a Jobo. It may not hurt, but it's a superfluous step, unless you have some non-normal conditions where it seems to help.

[Doremus Scudder]

There are advantages to pre-soaking film before developing.

First and foremost, if you pour in developer on dry film slowly, (which is usual with large tanks with small openings and rotary processors) it is obvious that some portions of the film will get the developer first. This can cause uneven development and streaking. A pre-soak expands and fills the emulsion with water, which then has to be replaced by developer before developing can begin. This, in effect, slows down the initial activity of the developer on the film, which helps promote more even development (the developer activity begins more uniformly). This is especially critical with very active developers and short developing times.

Second, as mentioned above, the pre-soak gets the film to processing temperature and thereby lends a bit more precision to the entire process.

These reasons are why Kodak recommends a pre-soak. They test to exacting standards of uniformity and know what they are talking about. It's not really a superfluous step.

Of course, if you process at room temperature and can immerse the film quickly, it may not make a lot of difference in practice. If you ever have any uneven development problems, however, you may want to adopt the pre-soak. Do keep in mind, that your developing time with a pre-soak should be slightly longer than the time without.

I'd play it safe and use the pre-soak and adjust my times accordingly (maybe 3-5% more for starters).

Best,

Doremus

[Bruce Watson]

Do you pre-soak your sheet film when you are using XTOL?

No I don't. I use XTOL to develop 5x4 TMY-2 in a 3010 tank on a CPP-2.

Years ago I exchanged a few emails with Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadzki, the chemists who invented XTOL at Kodak. They said that their R&D was done primarily with continuous development in Jobo rotary tanks, that they didn't use or recommend a presoak, and that the published development times for XTOL and rotary development assumed no presoak.

OTOH, they didn't say that a presoak would harm anything.

I suspect it doesn't really matter all that much -- as long as your development workflow remains consistent.

[Sal Santamaura]

When Jobo came out with their rotary processors, they tried to come up with a way for people to use times/temps published for inversion processing when they used their Jobo...When Kodak published their Xtol info, they included times for rotary development of film without a pre-soak. As a result, Jobo said to use the Xtol times without a pre-soak...Peter wins the prize. Jobo saw no value in repeating Kodak's extensive Xtol testing with a presoak. To read what he's referring to as originally published by Jobo, scroll almost to the bottom of this page:

http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/jq/jq9802.htm

Also note that, in the final paragraph, Jobo indicated neither presoaking nor not presoaking is right or wrong with any black and white film. Both methods work well.

[Allen in Montreal]

.......Jobo saw no value in repeating Kodak's extensive Xtol testing with a presoak. To read what he's referring to as originally published by Jobo, scroll almost to the bottom of this page:


Thank you for that link Sol,
I saved the entire series as PDFs and will sort through them later for good tidbits that may be useful.

[Allen in Montreal]

My memory is questionable at the best of times, but isn't Ilford HP-5 one of the only films that recommends not to pre soak?

[Sal Santamaura]

...isn't Ilford HP-5 one of the only films that recommends not to pre soak?No, Ilford recommends against a presoak for all its conventional (i.e. non-C-41) films. See the introduction to "DEVELOPMENT TIMES" in each of these:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271111491224.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010712125850702.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20106281054152313.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010628953322222.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/201071394723115.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271120582708.pdf

[Filmnut]

I use XTOL and don't presoak. I generally shoot Acros, TMY and Ilford films, and have never had any issues.
Keith

[Hector.Navarro]

I use replenished xtol and presoak all my film for 2minutes. Dip & Dunk btw.

[Allen in Montreal]

Sal, I got the Ilford half right, not bad these days! :) :)
Thanks for the links.


No, Ilford recommends against a presoak for all its conventional (i.e. non-C-41) films. See the introduction to "DEVELOPMENT TIMES" in each of these:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271111491224.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010712125850702.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20106281054152313.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2010628953322222.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/201071394723115.pdf
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20114271120582708.pdf

[Michael Alpert]

No I don't. I use XTOL to develop 5x4 TMY-2 in a 3010 tank on a CPP-2.

Years ago I exchanged a few emails with Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadzki, the chemists who invented XTOL at Kodak. They said that their R&D was done primarily with continuous development in Jobo rotary tanks, that they didn't use or recommend a presoak, and that the published development times for XTOL and rotary development assumed no presoak.

OTOH, they didn't say that a presoak would harm anything.

I suspect it doesn't really matter all that much -- as long as your development workflow remains consistent.

I think Bruce's conclusion is correct: if you are consistent in your practice, you'll be fine either way. I don't presoak, I follow the instructions in Jobo's manual, and I've never had any uneven development.

[Renato Tonelli]

It's somewhat reassuring that i was not hallucinating. Thank you for all your responses insights and links.